Alex
Tue, Dec 05/06
05:19 pm

I was a member of Aylmer United Church until 1988. I left because my congregation I felt I had no choice as I say it, Aylmer United voted to exclude Gay and Lesbian men from membership. I was the only gay member of the board and after being angrily denounced by others and sitting through church meetings where I was told how evil I was, 60% of the congregation agreed and voted to exclude me and all other GLBT people from their church.

At the time I never expressed my anger, I was a naive 25 year old and I was so hurt at what came out of the mouth of people, I just stopped going. I never said a word, I never showed up again, and none asked why. Actually two people did ask, and I lied to them and told them I was going to another church.

However the only other church in Ottawa that had voted to accept us was First United. My boyfriend was dieing and wouldn't be able to go because it did not have wheelchair access. At that time I swore I would never be part of any church or organisation that discriminated or failed to accommodate people with disabilities and illness.

Today I regret not expressing more angry back then, I was only focused on my boyfriends and mine survival. I believe I should have spoken out, I believe I should have shared more of my emotions. Anger was the least of them, and sadness was the greatest. But I didn't, I was scared and frightened. I regret I did not let the other members of the congregation know how I felt. Maybe then they would have seen GLBT people as persons.

Looking back at my experience I realised that there were other things I feel now were unhealthy for me besides the homophobia. That was the culture of the church which was stifling of all people not just GLBT, behaviours' like judging people and putting labels on them in order to dismiss their realities so that the mainstream can remain comfortable.

EZed
Tue, Dec 05/06
05:32 pm

Alex wrote: "Are not beliefs and opinions, shaped by emotions and feelings, and thus to discuss anything at a deeper level require us to expose our feelings?"

EZ Answer: I agree. Further, I believe that the expression of feelings allows for another Christian practice: testimony.

Expression of opinions and beliefs can remain hollow. Lacking the incarnational power that comes with tesimony. How did an experience impact me? What beliefs were matured or discarded by experience. How did I feel, and how do I express that feeling in my relationship with God.

Your post above, in response to our friend MadMonk, is a powerful testimony. A witnessing to the power of God in your life. A witnessing to the shortcomings of the Church.

Your testimony is a Christian practice. Thank you.

Mely
Tue, Dec 05/06
05:54 pm

Alex,
Your experience is very sad. Have you been back to a United Church at all since then? Maybe a lot of things have changed in the last 18 years. Hopefully a lot of things have changed...

MadMonk
Tue, Dec 05/06
06:46 pm

Hey Alex:

I'm a believer in righteous anger...

You have righteous anger. And I think you should use it. But don't forget how much things have changed since then, and that there are those of us (the Monk included my friend) who advocate for gays and lesbian's (women, right? I think you said lesbian men but I'll let you off the hook haha) rights in congregations as creations of God.

Peaceful Monk

Alex
Tue, Dec 05/06
11:06 pm

Things have not changed in 18 years. Only one church in Ottawa welcomes GLBT, and it's not wheelchair accessible.

Althrough I have been told that other churches welcome GLBT, no one from any of those churches have claimed so, it's always third hand knowledge.

Things are about to change next year. First United has voted to move to a wheelchair accessible Anglican church. None of the 10 United Churches downtown wanted to share space with them, unless they promised not to preform sex-sex weddings and others things that make it welcoming to GLBT, but they found a Anglican Church outside of the downtown that agreed to share space.

Also someone wondermailed me and told me MacKay United (wheelchair acessible)in the east end voted to start accepting GLBT, and should be going through the changes necessary to do so next year.

RevMatt
Wed, Dec 06/06
07:51 am

Alex, I support your righteous anger about your past treatment. I would have been yelling at everyone in sight and demanding people's heads.

But First is no longer the only church that welcomes those of other orientations. My little church in Munster does, and if we do, lots of others do. And we, like others, are accessible. I know for a fact that there are at least 2 Congregations that have done the formal process of becoming Affirming Congregations. And lots of us are welcoming without the process. Please look around.

But yes, lots of places in the city are still not welcoming. With luck, those Congregations will be gone soon.

ABC
Wed, Dec 06/06
11:17 am

RevMatt, I find it disgusting that you would wish other churches would close down just because they don't follow your unbiblical view on homosexuality. For your information, many of these churches are flourishing and unlike the UN are not losing their members at the rate of the UC.

MonAsksIt
Wed, Dec 06/06
12:43 pm

Alex, wow, what pain. I wish Wondercafe mail could send you a big hug, because I would if I could. We don't realize, sometimes, what opportunities we miss when we dismiss without listening, like certain individuals here who look for something to rant about without hearing the pain first. I remember when my little sister died at the age of 4, and someone told my dad that God knew what He was doing, that it was God's will to take her, and that it was a good thing which we couldn't understand. Dad said that he couldn't believe in a God that would take away his little girl and quit going to church. He still isn't even a C & E attender, though he did come to my confirmation and my kids' baptisms. That kind of questioning he had came in the 60's where there was no Borg or Spong or rabbis writing wise books. We can do so much damage in the name of religion, but hopefully will grow in wisdom one day so that we can do equil healing in God's name. That's my wish anyway.

jeanct62
Wed, Dec 06/06
03:20 pm

Well ABC: I feel angry whenever you appear in a thread. He said "be gone" not "close down". You have changed the language. Those two things could be different.

Alex: This forum is great for me in expressing anger because it gives me time to think my thoughts through before I answer. If I am face to face with someone, I might otherwise opt out of the conversation, in frustration and tears, if I can't find the words to defend my position in an instant.

Good point. Sorry to hear of your sad and frustrating life experiences.

Alex
Wed, Dec 06/06
03:23 pm

Rev Matt

If your church accepts GLBT people (your church, not just you or certain members. In 1986 when I moved to Aylmer I was assured by the minister and different members that I was welcome) what kind of process have they gone through to do so. Also considering the history of the church, why have you not advertise or sent out press releases to the GLBT media to tell people that GLBT are welcomed.

God Bless

MadMonk
Wed, Dec 06/06
05:52 pm

Alex:

I know a few gay and lesbian people in our church. They aren't the kind of people to wear their sexuality on their sleeve, even tho it isn't an affirming congregation.

Perhaps you can find some middle ground in the meantime? I mean some place that doesn't put a flag out with a pink triangle but still welcomes everyone?

Just a question.

Also for me, righteous anger has to do with anger against injustice. That's the difference, especially as we observe Dec. 6 here in Canada.

*prays for end of violence to women*

RevMatt
Thu, Dec 07/06
12:19 pm

Alex - both of my congregations arrived at that conclusion before I got here last March, so I don't know what kinds of processes they went through. In truth, there are some members here who are uncomfortable, but they have decided that there community is more important, and, on this issue, they can handle adjusting their views. However, to be sensitive to these individuals, the Congregations as a whole have not made a big deal of it. Think of it this way - there was a big disagreement (some have said a fight) between people who have been together for a long time. Eventually, that fight was resolved, but because of the nature of the issue and the strength of the convictions on both side, true compromise isn't possible. Thus, there are "losers" in the disagreement. While they have made peace with that fact, and they truly have, that doesn't mean that we need to rub their noses in it. So, we have a policy on the books, and if anyone asks, we'll tell them. And I feel quite free to preach in whatever way I want with respect to same-sex issues. And I would be free to conduct a wedding if asked.

Two other general issues at work here - as one older person told me: "I don't want to think about anyone's sex life. Can we please just not talk about it?" They mean that honestly. Hetero, homo, bi, self-love, whatever. Having worked through the issues around the corrupt, often hate-filled theology that excludes same-sex people (that one's for you, ABC), my congregations would like to move on. If couples of any discrimination want to be here with us, openly as a couple, even holding hands and giggling in the pews, they are welcome. But many of the more traditional people here would prefer not to have any talk about sex, of any kind.

Secondly, we have to be aware of our local geography. Both of my churches are quite rural, and we live in pretty conservative territory. One of my churches is in Lanark County, one of the strongest bastions of Conservative "thought" in Ontario. What the UCC stands for, and what we have done, is certainly known, but, again, it's a question of not rubbing people's noses in it.

But there are, as I say, at least two congregations in Ottawa who have formally gone through the Affirming process. And one in process. So some places are making this a fairly central issue in their identity (where I would argue that it is much more a passive thing here).

Alex
Thu, Dec 07/06
08:47 pm

RevMatt

First, I must say I was angry when I read your last message, at first all I could see was how far away from where we should be in society and the church.

But then I thought about it for awhile.

I remembered how far I have still to go to be all that I was meant to be. So who am I to judge other people or churches. I can see now that progress is happening in the church.

I remember my life and the hope that I have inside me that could have only come from something much greater than and much more loving than me.

Frankly I am speechless, I have tears coming down my face.

My heart has been so hard. It has to be to hold all my anger and all my tears.

I have more to say, but I have to first stop crying.

Thank you

ABC
Fri, Dec 08/06
11:38 am

Jean said, Well ABC: I feel angry whenever you appear in a thread. He said "be gone" not "close down". You have changed the language. Those two things could be different.

What do you think be gone means??? Please, you can't be suggesting something other than what was said now, can you? How can something be gone without shutting down? If there is a difference, and I don't believe there is, its still disgusting for him to suggest such a thing, and I can assure you, I don't wish that on him or his church.

ABC
Fri, Dec 08/06
11:39 am

RevMatt, you can call the Word of God hatefilled all you want. Sticks and stones bud. I feel sorry for you.

RevMatt
Fri, Dec 08/06
12:16 pm

"First, I must say I was angry when I read your last message, at first all I could see was how far away from where we should be in society and the church.

But then I thought about it for awhile.

I remembered how far I have still to go to be all that I was meant to be. So who am I to judge other people or churches. I can see now that progress is happening in the church."

We ARE very far from where we should be in society and church. Absolutely. And if I haven't said that yet, let me say it now. We have A LONG way to go. Absolutely. And we NEED you and people like you to continue to question us, prod us, kick our asses when we need it.

Let me be perfectly clear about my own take on this - I firmly believe that we who are the clergy bear the largest responsibility for the lack of compassion and abuse of theology that characterises the church, and that ABC and others so helpfully depict for us. In the UCC especially, the church, and it's clergy, have been running scared for 18 years now, and it MUST stop. We have failed you, and we have failed ourselves, and most especially, we have failed God. We have allowed our own fear of conflict, of change, of criticism turn us into timid people, afraid to speak God's word. When I talk about theological teachings that I get out of books from the 1800's, and the people in my pews think that is new thought, that is an indictment of the entirety of the clergy class, myself included. We are too comfortable, too careful.

We NEED you, Alex. I appreciate very much your understanding that there has been some progress, which is really all I was trying to do in the first place. Thank you for this thread, and for you posting here. I hope you will hang around this site, and around the church in general, to continue to help us grow. We have a long way yet to go before God's Dream comes to be.

Alex
Sat, Dec 09/06
06:46 pm

RevMatt
Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. It makes me feel welcomed.

I never considered that a church would be in my future ever again, until last year. I was in the first semester of my first year in university, after having returned to work in construction after having being ill, I had been forced to stop again after 2 years, due to nerve damage in my hands which made it to difficult to hold things. However the doctors were not sure whether or not the operation would work, as I had a combination of carpal tunnel syndrome, and peripheral neuropathy. So instead of just waiting around and do nothing while I waited for an operation that might or might not work I decided to take some courses at the University. I enrolled at St. Paul's University because it had ethics program, and small classes. After taking courses part-time I decided to enter into studies full-time. Although most of my classes are in philosophy, I was required as all students at St. Paul are to take a couple of courses in Catholic moral theology. The teacher was a liberation theologian, Caroline Sharpe. After doing a book review on Dorothy Sölle's Creative Disobedience, and attending a couple of lectures (which gave us bonus points) , at an Anglican church and at a Unitarian church, I had a revelation.

As a 12-year-old I had internalized the belief that self-sacrifice was the greatest virtue for me. I had arrived at this combining my Kantian-Boy Scout "“ Golden Rule ethic of duty, with the belief that I was evil. I believed I was evil because my father beat me and my church and society said I was evil for being gay. Self-sacrifice was a way to redemption I thought as a 12-year-old, as well as a way to protect myself against violence. Even after I had grown up and no longer believed that I was evil, I still practiced self-sacrifice because it was the only thing I knew. Because of this my relationship with God and community was stinted, for how could I have a relationship with God unless I knew who I was. So I adopted a new approach as suggested by Sölle. I combine universal duty with Jesus's life as a model. I had never heard that Jesus had left a self-fulfilling life, all I had focused on was his sacrifice, and in fact his sacrifice would have meant nothing if he had had nothing to sacrifice.

I was living in Québec city in 1985, when I met Robert. He was the first person who told me since the death of my grandmother at the age of 12 that I was loved and lovable.
We met at a meeting called to form a provincial wing of the new Democratic Party in Québec. Because he had my love for social justice, and because he was crying to me
I open myself to him. Robert also had a deep spiritual life. He had grown up Roman Catholic, and was at that time 10 years sober.

So I moved from Québec city to Aylmer a suburb of Ottawa to be with him.
I went back to school, CEGEP, and join the local United Church so I can have a place to explore my relationship with God and the community. I had been assured many times I was welcome. Although within a year as the debate over ordination and membership for gay men and lesbians became heated, it became quite obvious that not everyone felt that way. Robert became sick 4 months after I had moved, and it was very difficult.

So after the vote, I left never even thinking to that the members know what the church how I truly felt.

Then when I was really sick and close to dying, I also left God. God never left me of course. I could not understand why I was unable to ask for the help that I needed, when I had been there and provided similar help to so many other people. I now know I couldn't ask for help then because I had never learned how to do so. And like any other virtue, taking care of yourself, loving yourself is something that has to be practiced. I was always able to find somebody who was worse off than me, or some cause that needed my attention. For the first time in my life I knew nobody who was worse off or needed more help than it did at that time.

When I was my sickest, this was when I first started the drug trials, I had to fight hard to stay alive, there was no guarantee that the drugs would work, in fact most of us on those drug trials were just hoping for a few extra months or maybe a year or two more. I would've been happy with one more year I was already alive for years longer than my doctor had originally estimated.

But I became bitter, because I thought someone should have been there for me. All my closest friends had predeceased me. No one would be there for me though, until I was able to ask for help.
To be able to ask for help I had to leave my God, or what I thought God was demanding me, self-sacrifice.
As the drug trial started looking more and more promising, I promised myself that if I was given another chance at life, I would live for myself, as well is others and not just for others.

So after many years of living with serious side effects from the drugs, I enrolled in a drug trial that didn't have serious side effects for me. It still took me a couple more years to realize that I would live.

Going to University was something I always wanted to do so I am doing it. I am enrolled in a bachelor program specializing in ethics. I believe what is happening now in the third world is the greatest ethical crisis humanity has ever faced. It haunts me that I get to live while so many millions more die. I rejoice that I am alive and healthy today, but that joy is tempered by the realization that I am proof that people do not have to die from this epidemic.

I want to do something about it, while at the same time taking care of myself, and enjoying all that has been provided for me by God, and my community.

So I find myself going to church and not just for funerals. I have attended services at four different churches in the last year; United, Presbyterian (the Kirk in Charlottown, PEI for a Gay Pride Service), Unitarian. I also attended and ecumenical conference this summer in Toronto of Lutherans, Brethren, and United church GLBT people. Sometimes I have been inspired, sometimes I am just so full of anger I just get lost in myself, sometimes I cry, and sometimes I just find myself counting the lines in the woodwork on the pew in front of me. I guess I am looking for a church where I can be myself, by which I mean not just who I am now, but to become what I may be. I don't know if it's possible until I do further work with myself. But I am not one that gives up easily.

MonAsksIt
Sat, Dec 09/06
08:07 pm

Alex, love, what a journey you've been on. My heart goes out to you. It's stories like this that really have made me feel ashamed of how much we just don't get how hurtful our heterosexism can be. I will pray you find moments of grace, joy and love in your life, you deserve it. Really.
I've been watching X-men movies with my son recently (hard stuff for a sensitive mom like me who doesn't particularly like violence), and the one scene that really struck a chord in me is the young boy in the beginning of the third movie. He's in the bathroom with a razor blade and his father is yelling at him to open the door. When the father breaks the door down, he sees his son frantically trying to stuff white feathers in the garbage can. He's been growing beautiful white wings, but because it's different and 'a deformity' and something his father rejects, he tries to mutilate himself to get rid of the wings.
Church should be about helping you find your wings, not forcing you to feel that you have to cut yourself in order to conform. Fly, Alex, stretch your wings at school and soar with the eagles, you can do it!

RevMatt
Sun, Dec 10/06
02:22 pm

Alex, if it helps, I God isn't one to give up easily, either. The most powerful words of faith for me personally are from our creed: "We are not alone".

Thanks for this conversation. Not only did we win the award for it ;), but it meant a great deal to me personally. I hope to meet you some day.

panentheism
Mon, Dec 11/06
03:29 pm

Alex as others have said you are right to have righteous anger over the treatment you received, and any who are like you and experienced negative reaction ( whatever you represents) are more than correct to be angry - we need that passion of righteous anger and hurt to be heard.

Given that I must correct a comment - in Montreal I personally know of several congregations by action or by hospitality are Gay/lesbian welcoming. Not all of them went through the affirming process because it was redundant... like the church with an openly gay minister who is married....

As Matt said there are several in Ottawa Presbytery that have inclusive hospitality... as one of those who wrote the original report that opened the church to homosexual ordination and known as that is one of the things I bring to the table, in the hiring of me there was an affirmation. That meant my previous congregation without going through a process was open and my present little rural charge is like wise - Edwards Ont.

Pinga
Mon, Dec 11/06
10:03 pm

Alex, I too have appreciated your posts.

To me, it reminds me of the importance of United Churches following the protocol for Affirming, and ensuring one's church is listed as Affirming.

The terrible treatment that you experienced, at the hands of people you thought cared for you, is important to name. We heard similair stories , through the Affirming process. We were able to do some healing, but only to those who stayed. Those who left in their pain were lost. . I am guessing, that there were some voices raised as you have indicated, and others who were silent in shock, surprised by the comments made.

Thank-you for reminding us, of the importance of continuing to reach out, and build bridges.

On another topic, you also mention the lack of affirming congregations which are wheelchair accessable. We are one of those, and have not tapped into the Trillium's fund monies due to its source. Maybe it is time to think of the consequence of our actions. Thanks for making me think