Can you give me an example? where is the contridiction,

i can't say i remember the exact chapters.

however, i do remember reading some guidlines as to how a church should be run. it was talking about how everyone's view is to be taken into consideration, and that everyone is equal in the eyes of the Lord. it went on to say that women shoul express their fews to only their husbands.

is that a good enough example? i can look up another if you want.

-d.p☼

The tome we call bible is know by some as the book of the dead or even the book of chaos ... an apt expression to describe an unbound love. Is love chaotic, quantum, randum and varies by time, space and a sense of awareness of what has happened?

The best way I can see this book is as a series of stories we can learn from as offspring of an act of love ... good or bad! Would it help if we had an open heart and open mind to observe and evaluate the time, place and situation before we made a decision on a circumstance? Is that fluid ... or amour fuss? Is God like that: you just can't get your finger on a infinite love that you just don't know where such a devilish pair (deuce) will show up?

Is it good to bring a child to life in a situation is almost nil for the chance of a productive life? I don't want to make that decision for someone that I don't even know. But blind wisdom is a specialty of powerful folks and true to the unconscious collective when trouble arises and they are in court being examined for the situation, they answer the judge: "I don't know you honour, I can't remember!" As I said ... unconscious collective ... it's in the bag like Isaac. He has laughter up his sleeve in the child within. You see pure Love (God) is really stupid and you expect God to dig us out of this mess? Sometimes you need a devilish thinker that ignores everything that God suggested ... a cool cat in the drink?

Perhaps we shouldn't nail our beliefs down to anything but infinite chance ... and that might be here; it might be there! Now is there a freedom of belief systems in this land ... that you can believe in what you want as long as you don't impose it on another, or tell another that they are going to hell when you don't know whether that is objective or subjective in nature as the infinite love is ... to say the least indeterminate ... intangible?

Do we respect freedoms? Go way wit' yah! A member of this abrasive race ... respective of the other, an alien that they hardly know? Give them time they'll clean the sheet of the opposition .. and themselves without even knowing it!

Intelligent humans ... a misnomer, or just a bad hit in the Ba'aL game?

waterbuoy:

i agree! belief is what you want it to be, as long as you don't force it upon others. however, when the book of guidlines that we're all supposed to follow gives poor advice (i.e: that women should sit down and be quiet.) what does that say about our religion?

-d.p☼

So the bible contridicts itself, because you read some guidlines on " how a church should be run" and the bible says that " women should sit down and be quiet." It was " seed of a woman." (gen 3 v 15 ) that will bring salvation to the world. I admit many protestant churches fail to recognize women and their role in the church. The catholic view holds the highest and most true view of women. This is expressed and manifested in our devotion to the blessed virgin Mary! " a women clothed with  the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head twelve stars." ( rev. 12v1) If your church is not explaing the role of women to the highest degree Prudence, it is not becasue the bible is wrong in giving advice, it is because your church is not teaching the truth of the bible. God bless you!

dfogale - you are entitled to express your personal opinion here. However, as a Protestant ordained woman, I don't agree with your insistence that the Roman Catholic Church has the only way of looking at it. I am a woman, and a highly educated one, and a practicing Christian - and I don't agree. You are not here to convert us, nor are we to convert you. It is supposed to be an open dialogue. I think you are treading on the edges of proselytising and trying to convert people.

Fran

dear prudence. can I ask you another question? you were saying that everyone's view should be taken into consideration. Should we have considered Hitler' views then on the superiority of the aryan race, and the genocide of others. Or the consideration of the atheists that say there is no God? There is a sumpreme truth that cannot be disputed, " I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me." (John14v6) Your right that no one must force their views on others. To force someone means to use violence, tell me who is doing that? It will be the atheists to us christians once they gain control. "If they persecuted me, they will persecute you." (john 14v20)

Franota please, im not trying to come across very right wing,I apologize if I sound harsh, I think its just my personality, but if you say that Im trying to convert protestants to catholism, you are right. Im not forcing my views, Im explaing the catholic views in all honesty and proper discernment. Why are you are afraid of me converting anyone, If I have sinned please tell me the transgression. If you fear the people hear the views of the catholic church and find truth, why do you fear this truth? " If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."(john8v31)

Hi fran,

Welcome back! I hope you are well rested after your cruise - because I can see dfogale is in the mood for conversions.

Ah well, Arminius has gone into "battle" with the athiests in your absence. I think it's his time for a rest, so you can sally forth with your shield. Fight the good fight for progressive Chritianity, and I'll be alongside you!

Chris

I am not afraid of you converting anyone, I am quite sure that is not going to happen, actually. I am suggesting that trying to convert people is contrary to the open spirit of Wondercafe, not to mention it is complete disrespect for other people who don't share your view.

You're a young person and can explain the Catholic views as honestly as you see them. But others of us, who are even more familiar with them than you are, I would guess, don't see them that way. When something is put out in an encyclical which calls every other Christian "defective" in their faith -and that our baptism doesn't count (Dominus Iesus, 2000) - I have to say that this is not *THE* truth, it is one version of *a* truth, and a lot of wishful thinking to boot. I suspect you also need to do a lot more digging into your church's history - and there's lots to dig. A Catholic nun who was one of my teachers said the Catholic church never throws out anything, it just sticks things in storage in the garage and takes them back out when expediency dictates it. Hence, ordination of women will eventually happen in the Catholic church, and they will quote "precedent" as the rationale.

The problem with Roman Catholic theology is twofold. One, that a simple man believes he speaks on behalf of God and other people believe it as well. Frankly, God speaks quite well outside the Catholic church and doesn't need the help. Second, Catholic theology only recycles its own papers, it doesn't reach out into other theologies to gain a wider understanding. So it becomes inward focussed and narrower.

Here's a conundrum for you. Did you know the Catholic church used to ordained women? For almost the first 1000 years, give or take a few. Then one of the church *fathers* got the notion that only men should be ordained because Jesus ordained only men. Well, that isn't true either. Jesus didn't ordain anyone - but if he did, Mary Magdalene was certainly ordained, because she was the first he spoke to about those secret things of life and death (Gospel of Mary, which is, by the way, an authentic document - just not in the canon of scripture.)

Read some of Elaine Pagels books (Adam, Eve and the Serpent is a good one), or John Shelby Spong's Born of a Woman. Don't accept everything your church teaches as *the* truth. Oh, and if you are going to quote "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life", there are many scholars who see that as a clear mis-translation, on purpose. In the original Greek, it reads "I am Way, Truth, Life". Considerably different. Given that Jesus spent a lot of years out of sight, and given that his teaching style is decidedly Buddhist, the second statement is much more likely and consistent, in my view. The bit about people only coming to God through Jesus probably didn't even come out of Jesus' mouth - it was an add-on by someone else.

Fran

wow! it seems that i go to bed for a few hours, come back, and my blogs are a buzz of activity! how wonderful it is to see that my views sparked such conversation!

now, regarding the question you asked of me, dfogale. i do believe that EVERYONE'S views are to be CONSIDERED. note the words in caps. this does not, by any means, mean that their views are correct or not. only that they are to be aknowledged, and that whatever wisdom can be drawn from then should be drawn. infact, not only is this true with people's views, but with everything. for example, i am a christian. however, i draw knowledge, inner strength, and tactics from other faiths. these include buddhism, judism and yes, catholosism. just because you were baptized into one faith does not mean you cannot use the other faiths of the earth as tools.

and to you, fran. i find you to be quite an inspiration for women thinking about being ordained. i completely agree. noone trully knows everything there is to know about a faith. especially young people. i believe that, in being young, we are just dipping our toes in the waters which are our faith.

thank you both for your powerful words!

- d.p☼

The problem with the Roman Catholic is twofold? only, and the protestant church, or excuse me churches "s" has how many problems. With regards to Pope Benedict XVI, yes he speaks on behalf of God, his authority is given him by Christ!   "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church." " Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."(Mat v18-20) Our current pope is the (256th) is sucsession to St. Peter, thats's fact. So has that promise disolved? Also the catholic church is becoming " narrower " I think thats a good thing. Mathematics is the science of discovering the truth of material objects right? To solve a math problem the objection is to come to a perfect sum, and final simple answer. The way to achieve the true sum is to cause the equation to become " narrower ". Well the catholic church in its quest to complete the full union with our Lord and must not stray from this narrow path. Did not Jesus call himself  the "narrow door." I suppose the catholic church is striving to be like its King. Well I havnt read the other " gospels " but maybe the gospel of Oprah calls Jesus the incredibly wide and easy door, so I might be mistaken. " His teachin style is buddhist." wow! 

St. Thomas Aquinas said that our intellect or rational thought copies nature. When you see Gods creation it is designed with amazing accuracy and truth. water boils a 212.f. not a degree either way( to quote Billy Graham). Every snowflake is completely symetrical ! If our Lord sought to establish his church, and his intellect was above all other, would it be without order, symetry, accuracy, would it not be "narrow" or percise. What kind of military can survive a war with no rank or order, if there is not General,(pope) no colonels (Bishops) no sergants (priests). We are in the war between Christ (truth) and satan (sin) St. Paul spoke of satans ranks of demons under beelzebub. If we have 3000 denominations all on a different path, with a different plan. We are going to get destroyed, by this mighty spirit, and his evil followers.

The catholic church has not been perfect, because where there is humans there is sin it is in our blood, and sin is lawlesness. Never the less the church is One, Holy,Catholic and Apostolic as the protector of truth, the body of christ, the bride of christ. Both the Anglican and Orthodox churches are in serious dialouge with Rome on the reunification, under the authority of Peter, I hope and pray the protestant churches also follow this path. We are heading into very uncertain, evil times of tribulation and we must come together under this authority to have a chance of winning the battle against this culture of death and a God denying, evil world.

God love you All! from the bottom of my heart!

Well, I would never say the Protestant churches don't have problems - too many of them, of course, because they have people in them, and people tend to be people.

But God-given authority to only one man? No. In fact, quoting Scripture to a theologian can be hazardous to your theology (smile). Jesus never intended a church the way we see it - and I'd say the churches, all of them the way they are now - are precisely the powers and principalities he criticised and abhorred.

We do have to bear in mind that Jesus was not a Christian, but a devout practicing Jew; none of the disciples were Christian; the Christian church didn't come into being for about 350 years after his death. The *word* Christian hadn't been thought of yet. Peter, the rock, was to be a support for a return to an orthodox understanding of the Jewish faith, rather than what it had become under the Roman occupation. God speaks to - and through - whomever God chooses. God is not limited to the human pronouncements of one person.

The Protestant churches won't come together under the authority of Rome. Ever. Unless Rome changes radically and inclusively to recognise God's action everywhere in the world, including outside the church. Truth is never found in only one place, and there is never only one "truth".

Fran

Well, d.p. we want to keep you hopping!

Thank you for your kind words - faith is a process, a journey (a word I hate because it's been so overused, but it fits unfortunately). I don't believe the same way I did at 25, or 35, or 45, or even 55. As my life and knowledge has broadened, my faith has changed quite significantly, precisely because even at my grand old age (grin) there is still so much to know and learn and do....and not enough time to get it all in.

Keep searching, keep thinking, reading, drawing on everything you can. God calls and speaks from the strangest places sometimes - and the places we least expect God to be found.

Fran

The main problem is the foolish idea that the Bible is inspired by God, as if God was a man in the sky who gave out such ideas. This is foolishness. The many writers of the Bible, sometimes more than 3 in one book, have their own ideas of what inspired them. Like us, one day we may be inspired by the sun and another day by the rain. Paul is a man who struggles through his incredulous life and contradicts himself all over the place, but he is dealing with real issues in real churches that need different metaphors. Although the idea of God was seen to have "absolute Truth" written within "Him", putting your finger on anything absolute in those times was another thing! Values in those days were different than today, so why look for things that apply for today except through metaphor.

The problem is with people who worship the Bible instead of God. God is an idea within you. You are free to express what It means to you as you are inspired. Worship it as you please. To worship something like the Bible is idiosy (in my mind). It is a collection of altered writings, poetry, metaphorical writing, hysterical writing, journaling, essays, etc. Those who wrote the Bible did not sit down with the idea of making a Holy Book. They just wrote down what they believed or had heard from other sources. Most of the Bible is not even historically accurate. The saddest part to me is when people quote the Bible to prove that that Bible is true. It is not sad because they do not think as I do, but because they do not have the opportunity to stretch their minds in the area of "what is the meaning of life". They are told what the truth is and are not expected to question it. This happens in both Catholic and Protestant churches and also in other religions. When we are given a mind and reason and are told that we cannot use it, that is a sad state of affairs for any person in relation to any organization.

What if it is called a (w)holy book because of what is missing as suggested by the close of the Gospel of John?

A book inspired by emotion of undefined sort ... we don't know what people at that time were trying to impress a dumb crowd with for ulterior motives. You have to filter out what strikes your heart and mind, and how many know the nature of the infinite mind, depth of your being, a solar array of odd spectrums ... Finnegan's Wake! That happens to be catatonic. Can you speak to ID? ID is an interesting word most often used out of context as is Ego.

Consider that Peter was derived from Petros, a hole in the hard place, like Beth in ancient tongues ... a cave. Then perhaps it referred to Joe's eph emeral well ... the spirit of the mind, a difficult space to encounter face to face ... it is however a deep hole to draw from even in a place where thought and care are discouraged by powerful minds of enclused concerns. What lady at the well-head? Are we ment to expand our cares and thoughts? What of when there is no fabric to hide within .. when the body is gone and you are seen as transparant thought ... would that be embarassing to the prince(s) as they parade before the troops of the heavens (deep fabricated spaces)? Perhaps it is justa crazy ... out-of-body vision ... a visionary thought? Just something to think about ... but then would we do that? 

Peter II

I am happy that the Catholic church has led you into a relationship with God . I rejoice with you. I know exactly where you are coming from. For the first three decades of my life I was RC and came very close to entering seminary.

Today I am not RC and am in fact excommunicated. Will you rejoice with me in my relationship with God?

JRT Of course I would rejoice with you. excommunicated!! lol what the? how?

My only question is your relationship with the true God?

Because if mine is different than yours than one of us is wrong.

We must be intellectually honest and admit that if you are right than I am wrong, one of us is saying 2+2=5.

I was a catholic until the teenage years, then I stopped I got involved in drugs and drinking, crime and all that good stuff, I got booted out of school, and got mixed up in the cult world. ( I am only saying this because you guys are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I have a certain amount of trust.) I gave my soul to the evil one and became greatly depressed had suicidal thoughts.

I had a dream where I was tapped on the shoulder by an angel? maybe, lol!! I dont know. I changed very quickly ( about 7 years ago ) I heard a babtist preacher Adrian Rogers on the radio and I was brought back to Christ by him! As I became closer and closer to God the path got more narrow and I ended up back home in the Catholic church! If you read my comment to Fran further up it explains more.

Like I said of course i rejoice with you, Truth is the highest beatitude, I will not substitute it with , peace, kindness, good manners, beacuse without truth  none of these would exist. I want peace and kindness with all christians, and all faiths but not at the price of truth! one of us has to be wrong. at the end of time we will know.

God bless you all!