paradox3
WWG by Gretta Vosper: Church Newsletter Book Review
Posted on: 09/29/2008 10:47
Here is a review I have written for my church newsletter about Gretta Vosper's book. I have endeavoured to describe Gretta's viewpoint with clarity and respect, and to accurately reflect the...Here is a review I have written for my church newsletter about Gretta Vosper's book. I have endeavoured to describe Gretta's viewpoint with clarity and respect, and to accurately reflect the discussion which took place here on wondercafe. I posted an earlier draft about a month ago, and this is the final version:
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With or Without God by Gretta Vosper
In With or Without God, Gretta Vosper outlines two sets of problems with the Christian church of today, and she proposes a non-theistic model for the future. The new entity that she envisions will offer radically inclusive gatherings for all individuals who uphold life-enhancing values. As the title of the book suggests, a focus on God will not be necessary in this incarnation of church.
Not surprisingly, WWG has generated a fair amount of controversy. It has been the subject of many letters to the United Church Observer, and it has been debated at some length on Wondercafe, the United Church's interactive website.
Some folks were highly encouraged by Gretta's ideas, and by her creativity and gifted writing. Others thought that the non-theistic model lacked the depth and richness of the Christian tradition.
THE PROBLEMS WITH ORTHODOXY
- - (Or, the bible is not TAWOGFAT )
Witty and provocative, With or Without God argues convincingly that the bible is not The Authoritative Word of God For All Time. It encourages us to consider the context in which the bible was written, the motivation of its authors, and its intended audience. Gretta offers a humorous account of her experiences at theological school, where she engaged with many of these ideas.
Gretta rejects interpretations of the bible that have led to tribalism and religion's destructive aspects. This facet of WWG seems to have strong appeal for those who have never felt free to question or wrestle with scripture. For United Church readers, it will likely be the least controversial theme of WWG.
The emphasis is on the bible as a human construction. Because it is not a divine product, everything it contains is up for grabs. And Gretta Vosper does mean everything. We can question it all, even the assumption that God exists, which "permeates the whole book." Is there a reality, external to human beings, which we can call God or Spirit?
Must Jesus remain central to our faith as Christians? Rev Vosper seems to say no on both counts. She calls for a focus on life-enhancing values, and encourages us to rely on our own best thinking. "It is impossible to lift an appropriate moral high ground out of Jesus' life, works, and sayings," she writes.
Gretta recognizes that her views are challenging, and she states that WWG is extended as a confrontation. While she articulates respect for traditional expressions of faith that lead to compassionate and ethical living, non-theism is advocated for the church of the future. One participant on Wondercafe observed that Gretta makes a more convincing argument for non-theism than Richard Dawkins.
The arguments for non-theism are based on rejection of classic supernaturalism, or an intervening old-man-in-the-sky view of God. There is no serious consideration given to alternative theistic models: deism, pantheism or panentheism. It is interesting to note that no mention is made of process theology, which has been available for decades, and represents another strand of progressive Christianity.
Some folks at the café detected a mocking tone to Vosper's biblical discussions, while others felt she was writing somewhat tongue in cheek. A few participants stated that her biblical interpretations seemed rather simplistic. Gretta compares the bible to the works of Shakespeare, and she doesn't consider it to be pivotal for Christian faith. We are told that the bible is not reliable as a source of moral guidance, and Jesus is described as "a first century peasant with a few charismatic gifts and a great posthumous marketing team".
THE PROBLEMS WITH THE LIBERAL CHURCH
- - (Or, the "disconnect")
Gretta refers to herself as "a woman who has moved from the centre of liberal Christian thought to the bleeding edge of Christianity, struck by the complacency with which she had accepted the liberal framework and shamed by it as well". She feels that the liberal church has been complicit with fundamentalism, by supporting the right of faith groups to hold any belief they choose. While the terms "liberal" and "progressive" are often used interchangeably, Gretta draws clear distinctions between them in WWG.
WWG opens with the premise that the Christian church, as we have built and known it, has outlived its viability. Due to the availability of modern scholarship and a more educated laity, critical thought has crept in, and chaos has erupted. "The liberal church has been seriously wounded by its refusal to say what it really believes", Rev. Vosper writes. Many clergy have been reluctant to share what they have learned in seminary with their congregations, for a variety of reasons.
Modern scholarship was the subject of much contention on Wondercafe. How do we define the modern period? Does modern mean contemporary? What qualifies as scholarship? Is it modern scholarship from all streams, or only selected ones? Doug Todd wrote recently in the Vancouver Sun: "Given all the expansive, multidisciplinary thinking going on in progressive Christian circles these days, it's hard to understand why Vosper ignores so much of it."
Gretta asserts that many folks are experiencing a "disconnect" between what they are reading (and maybe even discussing in study groups) and what they are hearing during worship at church - - in hymns, prayers, liturgies and sermons. This resonated very deeply for some folks in the Wondercafe readers' group.
Many liberal Christians have left behind notions of atonement theology, Christian imperialism, and interventionist understandings of God. Why then, Gretta asks, do we still sing hymns that suggest we believe in these things?
In WWG, she specifically rejects the ideas of Marcus Borg, who is associated with the Progressive Christian movement in the United States. Gretta feels he is striving to assign new meanings to outdated language and concepts, and that more radical change is required for the church of the future.
"I think that in a generation or two we might stop using the term Christian", she told Charles Lewis of the National Post. "The central story of Christianity will fade away," Gretta explained. "The story about Jesus as the symbol of everything that Christianity is will fade away." Lewis reports that Gretta envisions a time when there will be no religious divisions or labels, everyone will share common values, and our only differences will be cultural.
The final paragraph of WWG (before the appendix) hints at a time when church will no longer exist: "If we can transform church into a vessel in which love can be held, shared and offered to the world, then we will have been successful. And if we find along the way, that church is not necessary to the work of making love known and teaching one another ways in which it can be lived out radically, ethically, beautifully, then we will be able to let church go and face a world without it with confidence and grace."
NON-THEISTIC GATHERINGS
- - (or, being spiritually inclusive)
In Gretta's view, the ultimate post-modern critique is the disintegration of the concept of God altogether, and she urges us to understand God as a human construction. She suggests that we cease using the word God completely. Alternatively, small "g" god can be utilized to describe a set of life enhancing values. "Unlike the former God, this one has no agency."
Author Lloyd Geering believes that non-theism grows out of the Christian tradition and is the only logical next step for the church to take. Gretta paraphrases the questions asked by Lloyd Geering and Don Cupitt - - What does the church look like beyond Christianity, and more radically yet, what does Christianity look like beyond God?
Gretta is not advocating the loss of religion as a whole, because faith communities can encourage us to become caring, altruistic, and respectful. Her vision calls for the distillation of Christian faith down to its core values of love and compassion. Non-theistic gatherings will allow those of theistic, non-theistic and secular perspectives to come together in community based on the values they share.
One Wondercafe poster, an ordained minister, speculated that Gretta's worship style might ultimately shift the theological spectrum within a congregation, rather than expand it. West Hill United Church has certainly attracted many new spiritual seekers, but it has also sustained the loss of several long-standing members.
The toolbox at the end of the book offers examples of prayers and liturgies that can incorporate a wide range of theological perspectives. Alternate readings to the bible are encouraged, and several sources are suggested. Many Wondercafe participants found the toolbox to be both practical and inspiring. Others noted the similarity to Unitarian Universalism, and questioned the need to recreate something that already exists.
Gretta Vosper is the minister at West Hill United Church, and the founder and chair of the Canadian Centre for Progressive Christianity. In With or Without God, she confronts liberal and conservative Christians alike, and proposes a radical revisioning of the Christian faith.
In the Wondercafe readers' group, two clergypersons questioned whether she remains in essential agreement with the United Church. Others who joined the discussion felt that the United Church umbrella was wide enough to accommodate Rev Vosper's theology.
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Comments
paradox3
Posted on: 10/01/2008 06:49
Arminius,
Thanks for your long and thoughtful post.
Bruce Sanguin was at West Hill United Church before my time in that congregation (2000 - 2005), so I have never met him. He and Gretta represent different strands of progressive Christianity, although there are certain commonalities to their thinking.
I am looking forward to the next chapter thread in the book study over on R and F, Arminius.
...P3
paradox3
Posted on: 10/01/2008 06:58
Thanks, Panentheism.
You wrote, "You did a fine job of saying what the book is about," and I am pleased to hear that you think so.
... P3
bygraceiam
Posted on: 09/29/2008 13:06
Hi paradox.....God bless you.....
Thats a hard way to go.....no Jesus..no bible.......
I believe this is where Faith Comes Into Our Lives...
We live by Faith....
God so Loved the World...He Gave His Only Begotton Son..that whosoever shall believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life....
Praise the Lord God
IJL:bg
Ariel
Posted on: 09/29/2008 18:33
Yes, bygaceiam, I agree.
That is a hard way to go .... no Jesus, no faith ...
very sad :(
Arminius
Posted on: 09/29/2008 19:26
Hi paradox3: I think Gretta's book is typical of what Bruce Sanguin in his Book "The emerging Church" describes as as the negative expression of the Orange level of spiritual evolution.
The Orange level embraces scientific rationalism and dismisses mythology. In its postive expressions, the Orange level helps us transcend the literalism of the previous levels. In its negative expression, the Orange level leaves no room for spirit, for fear of regressing into the previous literal levels, which it does not want to be identfied with. Thus, the Orange level of spiritual evolution tends to throw out the baby (Spirit) with the bath water (literalism).
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 09/29/2008 20:31
We have great difficulty with the paradox, parable and metaphor ...
We don't like to learn terms that were used in the underground of eon's past in which code was used to pass stories of irony being cast in a world without compassion ... the absolute authority of a powerful m'n (no sex, or genre involved) was to be feared not held in reverence. The persona was a shadow over the paradigm ... like a Toby when used in upended soul ... reverse psychology. Have we come very far in a world where so much potential is available to mankind?
Perhaps we are still too much like those animals that sit down and eat until they are sick ... sic (approximately) like m'n but not a perfect image as the imperfection as animal has its flaws too. There is the anima and there is the animus the enlightened part that needs to act in tandem with the extreme poles in all dimension of a multifaceted loupe of the hue m'n stain on the earth. You can call them Eros and Eris, Yin and Yang ... whatever you wish but learn of the arcaic devil that militant industrial sorts (Jezabell's) hated ... the thinking caring beast in tandum ... ain't that a deuce?
Could we learn understanding in a humbled earth?
It has taken a long time but;
Is that capricious old go'de we call emotion anxious to get the light ... a reflection from an earth-bound daemon ... children of the minor god's in learning mode? Is it the twining spoken of in Meuse and Miriam and intuit'd joint action in the dark both sides of that thin red lion called Raehab ... rejoining the flock of light after wondering the cold dark earth? Who is the pyre and who the bier?
One has to question the wisdom of Republican Rome's hostility to the Greasy image of daemo-crazies presented in the Latin reflection of the odds. The flood needs a leader not a ladder you singular dummy ... like a veil of mystery that compromises the duet of sides ... echoes and canons are quite acceptable ... but we need to respect and revere the whines in return to the medium of thought flowing freely in the light ... like water. In deep spaces the pair is like plasma in two phase dance of the rejects from the sun: alpha and beta ethers.
Now what kind of rejets come from a Black Hole phenomenon ... metaphor of a hungry soul of the infinite ... does it provide a mystery substance (graviton) to the spin of the cosmos ... what we call revolving emotions?
Is that a din a dizzie thoughts causing evolution? We couldn't stand for that ... could we?
paradox3
Posted on: 09/30/2008 06:25
ByGrace,
Thanks for your kind words and your encouragement...P3
paradox3
Posted on: 09/30/2008 07:36
Arminius,
Thanks for your post. I like the way you are "braiding" together the two wondercafe book study threads :)
...P3
Panentheism
Posted on: 09/30/2008 10:11
You did a fine job of saying what the book is about and far to kind, The point made above is it is the last gasp of fact fundamentalism - literalists in the guise of liberalism.
Arminius
Posted on: 09/30/2008 12:33
Hi paradox3: Some Christian liberals, intellectuals and progressives, like perhaps Gretta Vosper, become so contemptuous and dismissive of literalism--if not to say hateful--that they dismiss mythology, mystery and mysticism along with literalism. They thereby deprive faith of its vital roots, and throw out the Jesus baby (mythology, mysticism, spiritual states and experiences) together with the dirty bath water ( scriptural and liturgical literalism).
Why not just change the bath water, and bathe our Jesus baby in the clean Water of Life: an intuitive, metaphorical and literary interpretation of scripture, leaving room for spirit, for mythology, mystery, and mysticsim. An intuitive and literary understanding, combined with scholarly reasearch and scientific understanding.
At the deepest and most profound level, science and spirituality agree. The Principle of Complementarity appears to be the basic cosmic principle, and is a spiritual as well as a scientific principle. My literary, intellectual and mystical understanding of the Triple Paradox of the Holy Trinity embodies the scientific Principle of Complementarity.
(There you go, paradox3, you ARE the root of all understanding! :-)
It is a remarkable coincidence that the authors of the two books we study are (were) ministers of the same church--and your former congregation!--and that one book is, in a manner of speaking, the antithesis of the other. Gretta's WWG vividly shows the negative aspects and dangers of the more advanced stages of spiritual evolution, which can lead to the dreaded split between progressives and traditionals. Bruce's book "The emerging Church," on the other hand, is an attempt to prevent such splits and heal the rifts.
On Nov 1st. Bruce is going to lecture on his book in Penticton, B.C., where the congregation just underwent a very painful split. I expect that he will speak on how such splits can be avoided, and how traditionalists and progressives can live, worship, and be spirtually active and creative together, in peace and (relative :-) harmony.
We, LumbyLad, Wally, and I, are going to the lecture. I'll keep you and our book study group posted.
There is, of course, nothing wrong with the secular humanism that Gretta Vosper seems to espouse and propagate. But it leaves no room for spirit, and can't be considered spiritual.
LumbyLad
Posted on: 02/08/2009 21:28
Hi Paradox 3:
You did a very good summmary of this book and you were, perhaps, too kind to the woman, but unbias and fair.
The Orange level embraces scientific rationalism and dismisses mythology. In its postive expressions, the Orange level helps us transcend the literalism of the previous levels. In its negative expression, the Orange level leaves no room for spirit, for fear of regressing into the previous literal levels, which it does not want to be identfied with. Thus, the Orange level of spiritual evolution tends to throw out the baby (Spirit) with the bath water (literalism).[/quote]
I agree with where Arminius places Vosper on the negative side of the Orange level used by Bruce Sanguin. I think she turns liberalism on its head and moves herself and her church outside of the realm of spiritual considerations. When I first read her (in The Observer), I thought she would provide some interesting insights, but 'the power' has gone to her head and what she has to say has little meaning to me in the light of any disussion of Faith and Religion. "Fact Fundamentalism" is a very good way of describing her movement (Panentheism). I ask myself, how did a woman with this kind of bland humanism ever make it through the JNAC process to become a minister in the first place without lies. How can she be trusted now? This is not "progressive Christianity at all". Now I do not believe in the divinity of Christ either, but I am not afraid to call on his name. I believe in the mysterious divinity of man under God. I might get away with being called a Christian (follower of Christ), but Vosper cannot, I think, call humanism a new "religion".
Theodore Skandalon
Posted on: 11/06/2009 16:35
I have been closely examining the work of GV and CdiN lately and find that their work is clearly and effectively a challenge to stir up critical thinking. Unfortunately it will not work its way throughout the spectrum of Christain thought as it is reaching only the decidedly liberal in thinking. It is rejected quickly by those who have a solid understanding of Christian doctrine, which is why neither of them appear willing to engage in public debates with recognized apologists and they are not able to effectively answer the hard questions which are asked by critics who do not reside in the liberal polemic.
There is little new in their proposals among academics and theologians who are studied in Christian history yet, they do present new challenges to the way that the Church is doing things at this time. This is particularly true when looking at organziations like the UCC or other main-line denominations that have been shrinking since they have moved away from clear and consistent doctrine and chased masculine spirit and energy out of their church. This has left a gap that is being in-filled with almost anything that "feels" right rather than taking a serious examination of new ideas in the context of doctrine and truth and excluding the practise of ideas that will inevitably lead to damage.
If her(their) ideas can stand up to sound doctrine, truth and spirit, then we should all get behind her(them) and lead the church into a new way. If not, she should be cut off and the experiment stopped before the whole church suffers. A little yeast can work its way though the dough!
The common mantra of the "progressive" movement is the "radical inclusiveness" which should clearly exist when we are referring to loving, caring, honoring, accepting the people who are seeking God. Instead this mantra has morphed to radically include any form of worship, understanding of god (or not), social and sexual behavior , or belief system. We MUST accept ALL people, this is the clearest message of Jesus. That does not mean that we must accept all thought, all beliefs and all behaviors. Free-for-all thought and belief will only lead to conflict, confusion and tribalism rather than prevent it.
The Holy Spirit can transform each of us to a commonplace. The Spirit cannot work where its very existence is brought into doubt or is given a lesser place than a pre-existing belief. In the "new way", the pre-exisitng beliefs may be both encouraged and accepted in a " revised church" or non-church as defined by these authors.
History is the place where we can go to examine how many failed and exterpated religions, belief systems and heresies have pervaded "modern" thinking (modern being a time relative term). They are gone, not because they failed at doing the "marketing" as well as the poor desert peasants refered to by Gretta; it is because they did not have Truth.
This form of faith practise proposed by Gretta will inevitably fail as soon as truth is eliminated as is proposed by her and others in her movement.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 11/07/2009 10:03
It will all go down the tubes as man is generally concerned with closed caring and thinking and cannot get out of their box to see the concept of infinite ... GOD as acronym! This is why in old tongues Maan is considered an isolated bean ... isle in nature, self-centred fall out from free space without reverence for anything!
Panentheism
Posted on: 11/07/2009 10:23
Here is another way of looking at the issue - Clayton's book will be available in Jan - I have advance copy and it is excellent - easy to read - transformative.
Transforming Christian Theology: For Church and Society. Dr. Philip Clayton
Nov 10 and 11 at Dominion -Chalmers United Church, 355 Cooper Street, Ottawa ON,(corner of Cooper at O'Connor). www.dc-church.org(Sponsored by Ottawa Presbytery and the Madawaska Institute)
Dr. Philip Clayton is currently Professor of Religion and Philosophy at Claremont Graduate University and Ingraham Professor at Claremont School of Theology. Professor Clayton's website
B.A., Westmont College
M.A., Fuller Theological Seminary
M.A., M. Phil., Ph.D., Yale University
Transforming Christian Theology: For Church and Society.
An exploration of theology for The Emerging Church: Christian language is alive and well in the churches, and sometimes even outside them as well. But serious reflection about what Christian language means in our world today is in deep trouble. This event will help us reflect on what it means to be an emerging, missional, transforming church. It will make a radical call to pastors and laypeople to get involved and transform theology as we know it today. It offers concrete advice on how to explore and voice their own Christian beliefs in such a way that they can have a transforming impact on both church and society. Clayton's book Transforming Christian Theology: For Church and Society (Minneapolis: Fortress Press 2009) is recommended.
Tues. , Nov 10 , will begin at 9:30 a.m. for registration and end at 4:30. Wed. we will begin at 9 am and end at 4:30 p.m.
There will be a public lecture Tues. on This Sacred World: What the New Integration of Science and Religion Has to Say about Ecology, Politics, and Human Spirituality - at 4:30 at Dominion Chalmers United Church Ottawa
For more information check georgehermanson.com or email george@hermanson.ca.
Dr. Clayton's quest is to develop a constructive Christian theology in dialogue with metaphysics, modern philosophy, and science. The demands of this task have led to his work and publications in the theory of knowledge; the history of philosophy and theology; the philosophy of science; physics, evolutionary biology and the neurosciences; comparative theology; and constructive metaphysics. A panentheist, he defends a form of process theology that is hypothetical, dialogical and pluralistic. He is working Brian Mclaren in developing best practices fro the missional church.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 11/07/2009 10:42
Knowledge m'n ... that's dangerous ... Roman Theology that led to burning of books!
Is this counterproductive to understanding? Like if we never heard of pedaphiles; would we know how to deal with them? Sins ... m'n, don't speak, look, or hear of them and you won't think of what the powers can do to yah!
Omnious: derived from the all knowing nature of the subconscious that many deny; adendum to omnipotent, omnisceant and omnipresent pieces of ... sole entity ... solipsism?
Chuckles from the SHOE on the ether fote eh! Dipping in the poeL looking into the dark Ness of the other side with a wee byte of Light?
Theodore Skandalon
Posted on: 11/07/2009 22:52
An interesting discourse! I look forward to reading Clayton's book. Certainly the emergent church and other concepts floating around in the latest genre of "What's wrong with Christianity" or Church and how to improve it, may bring positive responsive measures for reaching out and being relevent in today's society.
Christianity at its core is missional and specific. It requires of us to deliver the message of the Kingdom of God. Unfortunately as soon as pantheistic message or tone enters the argument, then the need for mission and the relevent value of Christianity or Christian purpose evaporates in the miasma of relious and social relativism.
It will be interesting to see how Clayton will reconcil these two points. It will be like watching Chris Hitchens argue against theism from a platform of Christian-based values while bashing Christianity. It may sound good but it is quite circular to the question of where he stands in reality not in voice.
Panentheism
Posted on: 11/08/2009 16:33
just a note - Clayton is a panentheist which is different ( important difference) than pantheism. Check his web site or process and faith.
rishi
Posted on: 07/13/2012 22:22
The Orange level embraces scientific rationalism and dismisses mythology. In its postive expressions, the Orange level helps us transcend the literalism of the previous levels. In its negative expression, the Orange level leaves no room for spirit, for fear of regressing into the previous literal levels, which it does not want to be identfied with. Thus, the Orange level of spiritual evolution tends to throw out the baby (Spirit) with the bath water (literalism).
Great review P3!
As often happens, I agree with Arminius. And I think the Orange ceiling is the built-in limitation of Liberal Protestant theology in general. As I see it, Gretta hasn't really transcended that level of thinking / consciousness; she's just given it a makeover. It's still Liberal Protestant theology to me, just dressed in black.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 07/14/2012 07:36
Like clockwork in the wardrobe (closet?) that's dark until you can get beyond it ...