Do you really believe that you are "alone before the universe"?

In my opinion, religion is "just" a tool....but a tool that can create a "thin place" right? And it can create a "thin place" in community...which hopefully trains us all to see the "light" come through others. 

The fact that the stories of Jesus are still around after 2000 years and continue to speak on a very very deep level to many is beautiful (even if they were carried to us through a system (the church) that..well...at many points embarked on actions that don't really seem to connect too well to "love you neighbour...").

Do people really "worship" and "believe in" the system or is the "system" one of the many tools that we humans (with such limited understanding) have had some success with tapping into that sacred mystery that people perceived coming through the historical Jesus?  

Since you've done a degree in theology I'm sure that you've heard the story about the blind men and the elephants a million times eh? Have you read any Marcus Borg, or John Dominic Crossan? If not, you might find them interesting...and hopeful.

I wonder if "entities" are in constant states of evolution...if we listen and allow them to evolve.

Good for you for raising these questions...and it's neat that we are in a day and age where you can articulate these questions and not get burned at the stake.

I gave it another shot.  But once again, Christianity is hollow and dead for me.  The only honest people that I've found (the ones that accept history and scholarship for what it is and stop trying to perpetuate a fairy tale that only spreads hurt) in the Church still can't answer for it.  Once we strip away the Myth of the risen Lord, the Exclusionist and supercessionist theologies of Salvation, and every one of the miracle stories we have nothing.  So you're looking for actual spiritual experience that could verify the Truth of Jesus of Nazareth.  What is in the Church now that is causing questioning, but providing no answers from our universities?  We have a quaint cultural holdover that can teach us things about life, the universe and everything, but that's nothing unique.  I can get that from Douglas Adams (and his idea that we are part of a sub-creation designed to figure it all out seems to hold more weight than most Christian doctrines of creation).  I'd like it to be more.  To have meaning.  You want it to be personal, within your meaning, of your life story, your yearning for something that can give gravity to that yearning, a 'true' authority that doesn't conflict with who you are, but expands you in a positive way.  I'd like to be a minister for good/god in this world especially to the disillusioned like me that have no real spiritual home.  I cannot believe in sin the way that Paul would have me.  We aren't born evil and unable to fix anything without believing in Christ and him crucified.  And if I don't believe in Original sin, then I'd have to negate the entire need for a 'Savior" God/man and the entire sacrificial system that it's based on.  Christ can be little more to me than Girard's scapegoat.  Unfortunately to follow Girard is to turn my back on incarnational and sacraficial theology (in terms of placating a God or paying a debt).  You DO live in Original Sin, Adam & Eve's choice to live by knowledge over Wisdom.  There's a distinction there.  Wisdom comes from God through the heart.  Knowledge is from the mind, and universities are experts at pumping up that muscle.  So knowledge is failing you, and you have no direction to go to bring about the experience of God and Wisdom spiritually.  To do that, you need to do some of the things Jesus said and did.  Try a fast in the wilderness, give all your possessions away and trust God to Provide for you, or simply pray for the inexplicable to happen, so that your mind can't slice-and-dice its reality to bits.  

But you are not evil.  Your sin is someone else's sin that was put into you by being part of this society.  Can you see it?  It's invisible, it's root.  You take it for granted, and maybe are even proud of it, our society.  We should be pleased with what we did with civilization, using greed and knowledge instead of love and Wisdom.  But it's a foundation of sand, if you can see the future coming.  Don't let the sins of others drive you to do the same.  Knowledge is not the way.  Prayer, risk, trust, gratitude, humility are.  You are perfect, with the sins of others silently working inside of you.  You live 'in' Original Sin.  You are not the Sin. 

Let go of one thing that is very dear and important to you.  Your mind will say it completely makes no sense to do it, but risk it.  Let it go.  Feel the emotions rise in anger, in not making sense, then think of the emotions you are feeling in connection to that sacrifice, that meaning that you hold so dear.  Fear, inconvenience, but you do it for your own integrity, for yourself, to risk letting go, to risk God Coming to Give you meaning you never dreamt of.  Then pray to God, to Jesus, to both.  Be open to anything from it.  From the pain, the storm, the wisdom will come after, the Blessing Given.  The meaning suddenly becomes real to you, real meat that you so hunger for. 

God takes courage, risk and letting go of what we hold so dear.  If you can make that first journey, and want more, God will Bless you for your faith beyond your imagining.  And you won't even have to open a book to learn it.  Then you'll find out the difference between doctrine and truth, modern 'reality' versus actual Reality.

Please remember that I'm only touching on the things that I have issues with here...  I've done a fair amount of reading (BA in Theology) so keep your responses from justifications of one doctrine or other.  I'm not taking issue with specifics...  My problems are with the whole.  I keep being told that the UCC is a place where I can live and ask these questions and find a spiritual home without all of the baggage.  But once I drop the baggage what do I have.  I stand alone before the universe. Yes, God is in the Abyss, behind the Veil that you cannot see without the courage to risk letting go and trusting Him.  It's experiential, not intellectual.  Doctrine is mostly for those who do not take the risk, for so many fears about their comfort and safety, in their own logic.  For those with the courage to let go into what seems like 'nothingness,' the True God Awaits.  Then you'll see the difference between the pews and God.  Then you have to decide if you want to leave, or stay and help others discover what is in the Abyss.  Immense healing comes from facing the pain and fear and illogic, the healing meaning you so crave. 

No statement of faith to protect me, no dogma to fall back on.  Not a single belief to call undeniable other than (to paraphrase Descartes) that I am the one doing the doubting.  Is it wrong of me to commune and participate with people who believe the system that they are engaged in, when I am only there for the community and not the system?  How can I believe so strongly in the church as people when I disbelieve so strongly in the Church as Ecclesia?  Ambivalence is often a sign of psychological injury or underdevelopment...  Perhaps as I explore where the Church did injury to my growing self (as Id and Ego, soul, or capital I  Also known as Pride, false pride, for only God has True Pride... what's the difference?  What security in Self do you have to let go of and risk, trusting God will Show you?) through theologies of worthlessness and condemnation I may find healing.  But I'm not sure that the entity that did the injury is going to be capable of providing healing...  Neither did I.

The prayers have gone out.  Still your mind, find the courage, trust, let go into the Abyss, trusting Father.  The meaning will come.  You can only find your True Self, your natural Self, by finding out what Father's Pride truly is, as you are made from Him, which is what you are really seeking, yourself and God, yourself in God.  Your true pride is not insecure, like you feel right now.  But it is Father's Pride, because you are His, One with Him.

Blessings,

SW

 If the God is without, as a Theos or divine being we are still worthless in and of ourselves.  The theology of condemnation and worthlessness still remains.  It is only by letting go of the idea that our value comes from God and not from who we are as a unique and valued being that we can be free.  Original sin and a doctrine of salvation assumes that we are worthless and utterly depraved without God.  That is a doctrine that has wounded me deeply.  I know that you and many others are able to see the flip side that "being chosen to be saved" means that you have value...  But I can't.  All I see is doctrines that negate and devalue me for me.

 Thanks.  I've found that many people don't take my issue seriously.  The idea that we are "chosen" and that we have value because God... (insert: first loved us, saved us, whatever makes people feel good) promotes self deprication.  The sort that was acceptable and promoted in Victorian love poetry but utterly devalues the one that states it.  I know that Luther and many others have found freedom in the idea that "God does it all".  For me, it is nothing but a blaspheming of my own value.  My value as either a creature or as a being are shot to hell if I decide to believe in Original sin, 'election' or anything else that says that my ONLY value is value given to it by God.  Value given to it by someone outside of myself.  We are constantly told not to worry what others think about us we are valuable for who we are, and then every Sunday we're told that 'no, actually you only have value because of what Jesus did' or that our value is solely dependent on that 'Other'.  Whether it be someone else, another being, or our god-consciousness, we still have no Self-esteem because we've abdicated responsibility for our value to someone else.  I can't do it.  I have inherent value.  My choices and self-hood have REAL not merely perceived value.  Because if it were otherwise, I would have no reason to exist.  Because if I only have value because of what someone else has done (created me, saved me, whatever) then I have no value.  There can be no self-esteem or self-love if I allow Christian theology to keep telling me how worthless I am without God's help.  And if that's false pride I don't give a damn.  It's the only pride I have.

Exactly, the first step in feeling the difference between God's Pride and the pride, the meaning and 'value' of ourselves that we create, from the reality we are born into, to protect and keep something positive that is not threatened by some 'Other,' be it society or God.

The fear of losing Self.  If we lose it, what else do we have?  Nothing.  What IS God's Pride, and how is it different from our own?  What's wrong with our own pride?  Why can't God respect it?  Why is there an inherent threat in so much Christian theology?

What I think you're telling me is that you have not experienced unconditional love, that has no room for the self-negativity society and religion breeds into us.  There are conditions on Salvation.  No, you're already Saved, especially since you are struggling for God and Self, the resolution that theo-logic is not providing.

God just requires Love and Faith.  He knows what you're going through.  You are in a mind culture that promotes the brain, and wants to avoid the true heart at all costs.  We believe the concepts will make us feel in control, so we are safe. 

Why are you here?  To choose whether you like what civilization has done to your self-esteem, defining who you are, or do you prefer God, who Created you, so you're actually like Him, but if you don't know your true father then how can you know yourself?  You want your father to love you unconditionally, not tell you to conform or you will suffer.   That's what traditional Christian theology has done, but its not the reality of Jesus or God.  Why did the Church do that?

You know what civilization has done to you, and you're searching for an actual experience of God, of unconditional love, so that you don't feel threatened and worthless.  The answer is out there, but you have to risk going against the herd and its admonitions, to discover it within yourself.  That's hard to do.  The UCC reassures us that we are just ordinary humans living ordinary lives in Christ.  Is that satisfying for you? 

There is a difference between knowing the path, and walking it.  I've done it.  And after nine years of following God, I've lost everything, no job, no money, no home... and my minister family disliking my actions intensely.  'Get a job.'  When I did, to make my loved ones happy, I lost it after getting a 45% sales increase the week before.  Suddenly they had to see the pattern in my life, which made them feel insecure.  I was showing both boldness, what they were afraid to do, go jobless and trust God, and they had to see that God didn't want me in the civilized machine.  He saw I had the guts to take Him seriously and follow Him.  Lo and behold, I'm still alive and by facing my fears and going against the herd, I've discovered Truths I've not read or heard anywhere. 

It's about choosing your pain.  I got bored with mine, conforming to society.  So I decided to give God's Pain a shot.  Ouch.  But boy, I found out the difference and similarities between me and Father.  My ego and pride took one horrendous bruising, how truly ugly we are inside because of this world constantly compromising us, threatening us to conform to its meaning on so many levels.  Not fun to face. 

Its a tough road if you want true relief.  God gives us a choice.  He'll show you what you want to know, or you can go on your own and create your own meaning.  All life is a risk.

That's why its called The Fall.  And unfortunately, you have to Fall from this society's meaning to get back to God. 

As the Gnostics once said:  "Go as far as you can, and stand there."

How far do you want to go with God?

"Oh Child of My Love"

The sun has broken in your eyes 
and will follow in your grace
Angels in the dark night will watch over you
until the dark night delivers the day,
In tenderest arms they hold you tight.
 
Oh Child of my love,
I release you into Gods almighty hands.
To follow the path your precious heart demands.
And upon Eagles wings you are lifted high
Just remember who you are and hold your head up high
and speak your truth ,my darling child
for your beauty reaches so far and wide.

I am always near, and will always love you
but now that you are grown our paths are no longer one path 
Now, you must walk your own
See this path before you with your heart and soul, not with your eyes.
See it with love, and though the night is dark, your true path
will always be visible and bright.

Spread your wings and fly my beautiful Angel Child
it is your time to fly, it is your time to shine.
Rise up and meet the sun for a new day has begun
always know ,how very proud of you I am my little one

The sun has broken in your eyes 
and will follow in your grace
Angels in the dark night will watch over you
until the dark night delivers the day,
In tenderest arms they hold you tight.
Sharon Littledove(c) 2008

 I'm just curious when you say you have tried Christianity - what does that mean to you?  Does that mean that you've only looked at what a bunch of people have written about it - and I am not saying those wouldn't be valuable resources - but is it only an academic approach you have taken?

Reply to Granton:

I grew up in the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches, was actively involved in Church from childhood, was a leader in youthgroup, and spent five years studying for ministry.  I have done a number of short term missions trips and have read the Bible cover to cover several times.  For ten years I prayed almost daily and attended Bible studies and prayer groups.  Don't try to tell me that I "just need a real spiritual experience".  That's what everyone else keeps doing and it isn't helping.  My issues with theology and dogma come have to do with basic principles of understanding God vice self.  The idea that God is outside of us as a distinct being leads to a number of conclusions about the value of selfhood that I can no longer accept.  I'm not saying that it isn't a helpful way to picture God for others.  However, in my particular situation, at this stage in my life it will only exacerbate my psychological issues if I am unable to find self-worth and constantly look to someone or something outside of myself for value.  Even if that thing is God.  Because an unknown and unknowable God-concept that no one seems to be able to agree on is not a good place to found a healthy psyche.  I am working to overcome a theology of condemnation that I grew up with that is the logical outworking of two fundamental concepts:  That God is external to us until we accept his work in our lives, and that we are fallen, completely depraved, and worthless until chosen to be possessed by God through his work in Christ. Those two ideas form the basis for most Christian doctrines.  The second isn't found as much in the Theology of the United Church or other liberal denominations, but is necessary if one is going to answer that the Christ event was necessary.  Because if one denies that we needed saving because we were worthless, then why would we need a savior?  And I CANNOT believe that we are depraved and worthless.  Each of us has value in and of themselves.  The idea that Christ came to save us from the sin inherent in the systems hold some weight, but it still says that human beings are powerless apart from the great big potter in the sky.

However, IF god is instead viewed as the sum total of the parts of the universe.  That each and every one of us and each and every thing participates in god because we are a part of the very valuable thing that we call LIFE.  If God is allowed to be changeable, evolve, and develop as we develop.  If we take seriously the idea that we were made in the image of God instead of taking so seriously the fall and our need for salvation.  A theology that focuses on what we can become (as a species, as a world, as a universe) instead of always looking back to what we were, and trying to wrestle with a 2000 year old legend.  The usefulness of the Christ-myth is no longer universal.  A small percentage of the population are able to adapt, remain healthy, and grow into their role as a part of God from within it.  Most people need a new story.  We're tired of looking behind us.  You'll never stay on a bull if you're always looking at the gate that you came out of.

 By the way, I know you're both just trying to be helpful but you've ended up doing the same thing.  You've told someone that is having trouble with self-worth that if he will just 'perform' better (believe, have a spiritual experience, let go) then he will be worthy of God coming into his life.  SunWarrior you speak of God 'requiring' love and faith ergo God isn't really interested unless I show interest first.  Granton, yours is even darker.  Because you're telling me that even if I've tried and wrestled for years that God never failed but that I've failed to find him.  So, if I agree with you I would have to believe that my own mind and soul deceived me, that God chooses to reveal himself to people I don't even know, but he won't reveal himself to me.  Returning again to the deep seated roots of a theology that continues to negate me.  However, since I assume very different things about God than you do, you haven't sent me back into that pit of despair to wait for God to liberate me.  Rather, I can see that you need a God that is without, and can save you, and I need a God within that allows me to save myself.  Each God-concept is as arbitrary as the last (if you will indeed agree with me that God is too big to completely describe then we all have a part of it right, especially if God is infinite, which would logically mean that he contains ALL parts) and mine helps me overcome the injury that the other concept did.  My God demands nothing from me.  It loves me.  It is me.  It is also you.  And it is the rain that falls as I write this.

Hey, I was just asking the question to try and understand a more fully what your perspective is.  It seems to me that you are jumping to some conclusions about what I may or may not believe - and I certainly don't see how from my first post you can ascertain what I am telling you to believe.  In no way did I mean to offend you - and I apologize if I somehow unknowingly hinted at such a dark view.  I think sometimes being on these chat boards can be a lot more detrimental than positive --- would much rather have a cup of coffee with you and chat face to face.

That being said, I will risk trying to respond to some of what you've said.  And forgive me, I can only go by my experience - I will try to limit my assumptions --- if we can grant that for each other - maybe there is a chance we can advance this discussion --- deal?

It has been my experience when people tell me that they don't believe in God - and you ask them - "well, tell me about this God you don't believe in..." - you inevitably get a view of a God that I wouldn't believe in either.

I rather like the second paragraph of your second to last post.  For me, God is far bigger and more vast than our ability to comprehend - the language of my understanding is Christian - yet I feel it still isn't complete enough to describe or know the entire God.  I do feel that there is some kind of spark of the divine inside me - and it is my humanity that limits it full expression or revelation to this world.  And when I say my humanity, I mean a lot of things, just starting with my own inability to have as elevated a state of consciousness as I see others have.  But - such is my path -- and you've invited us to talk about yours.

"But once I drop the baggage what do I have.  I stand alone before the universe.  No statement of faith to protect me, no dogma to fall back on.  Not a single belief to call undeniable other than (to paraphrase Descartes) that I am the one doing the doubting.  Is it wrong of me to commune and participate with people who believe the system that they are engaged in, when I am only there for the community and not the system?"

I sit in church most weeks knowing that of the couple of hundred people there - there are likely a couple of hundred different approaches to God.  What unites and what brings us together - is what we can agree on, things like; while we're here we should try to be reaching out to support others, listen to other people's stories and give them a shoulder to lean or cry on, enact some kind of social justice as best we can, sing and praise God (as we understand him/her/it.

Can we start there - and you can tell me what I've said now that offends you?

I guess it sounds like conditional love.  Only if you do this will I love you.  Only if you do this will I give you anything you want.  Who wants to be dependent on a God, or another human for that matter, to give us our self-esteem?  We SHOULD be able to give it to ourselves.

Why doesn't God love us unconditionally?  Why do we have to sacrifice and suffer to get things from Him?  I thought love was all about giving, without the expectation of anything in return.  Love is not supposed to be a trade of 'goods.'

There is an emotion in you that has powerful meaning.  How did that get into you?  Who taught you that the intellect was the way to solve its negativity?

Ask God.  That's what you're really asking, not solutions to endless theological babble.  Mind you, the pain went into you as a child and is working away still now.  It can be painful getting that bullet out of you.  You may have to do something you don't want to do.  But, God was just trying to help.  God is not a substitute for who inflicted suffering into you.  God is there to show you the Truth, that it is a lie, a fear, and is not really 'you,' but you were forced to buy it as a child.  And if you face that fear and trust Him, you can resolve your own problem.  How's that for self-esteem building?  And God will even tell you after the storm why the bullet was put into you in the first place. 

If God is a trade, He always give us, the customer, a bonus offer... ;-)

And besides, any psychologist will tell you where the problem is.  Wouldn't you want a expert friend along to advise you?

Or, you can start with anger at God, if you're really unhappy.  After all, He designed your life, so He IS ultimately responsible for what you're going through.  But He also put inside you the ability to solve it yourself as well.  If you want to know the secrets, He'll be happy to show you the path to it.

 You're totally missing the point.  Your conception of God doesn't work anymore.  It hasn't worked to provide answers except to those who have a certain temperment.  Don't you wonder why 90% of people are searching for something that our current God concepts don't have the answer to.  God isn't a he.  God isn't an it.  God has no personality nor mind.  All of those concepts are anthropomorphisms that we ascribed to God over the last number of millenia in order to overcome our fears.  To speak of God as friend, lover, or anything else is to speak solely in metaphor.  The problem is that one person's metaphor CANNOT be taken for the reality.  A metaphor is only ever a symbol.  God-words help us understand some amount of divine reality, but to make the mistake that we are actually describing God is just stupid.  

That's just the point, they're 'concepts.'

And don't fall for the modern logic that 'God' is just some amorphous 'something.'  God has a specific consciousness and a non-specific one.  I call God the Father a 'He' because I experience Him as a father.  He is a warrior heart, which means 'protector.'  But society has to get over its anti-male bias to see the positive masculine in God.  That's a hurdle.

What can be taken for reality?  The absolute base 'reality' of All Creation is consciousness.  Consciousness demands structure, and that structure is meaning.  And the language of Heaven is poetry, not prose, and poetry is just metaphor, meaning.  So what does it matter?  The rigid logic is the problem, concepts thrown at people to grapple with, which is just a waste of time.  That stuff is there to refer to after experiencing God.  It makes no sense before, and it was originally written by people who had experience of God.   So universities and their great theology are lost because so many students have only concepts into God, but God starts from the heart, not the head.  So we screwed from the beginning, because its all backwards.  THEN the metaphors and amalgamations of historical deities makes no sense at all.  Its all irrelevant in the end.