Sounds like an exciting time Tabitha!  Sure you can do it - you sound like a faithful bunch!

Oddly, we are currently looking a options to deal with a looming financial crunch and the most attractive one is selling our building (it's not a purpose built-church but a commercial property) and finding rental space in a more central, accessible part of town (where we would be unlikely to able to afford a purchase).

150 households should be able to do it. That's small but still quite a bit larger than us. Go in with open eyes to the costs and issues of owning but also wilth some enthusiasm. I think it sounds like a wonderful opportunity.

Mendalla

Especiallyif the 150 families are constant.

No the 150 households represent the mailing list. You know both adherents and members who do not attend but still have name on the list.

The reality is that we have been using our small reserve to meet annual budget. At this raTE WE WILL BE OUT OF  MONEY IN ABOUT 2 YEARS.

But the encouraging news is that both givings and numbers are slowly increasing. Adherents are becoming members.

If we can get the fiancing then our monthly costs will be slightly less then they were and we'll be building equity.

And if we get it and can't keep affording it, we can always sell.

Yes, I think you can do it. If God is behind the project you will succeed. I love that it's not a traditional church building. Love unconventional worship spaces. So, what is it? A house? A barn? A lighthouse? A... ?

Tabitha - I would suggest that you go forward in faith - look forward with confidence.  

Hi Tabitha,

There is no reason why such a thing could not be done.

May God bless this congregation in their search to find and create a new home.

Grace and peace to you.

John

My classic is how First Unitarian in Hamilton bought an old Tru Value hardware store and within a couple years you could no longer tell it had been one. Alas, that was right around the time we were moving to London so I didn't get to go to it very often. Sitting in where I used to go to look for tools and such felt a bit odd at first but they did a bang up job of making it work.

Mendalla

Kewl stuff. I attended a storefront church for a few weeks during the time my wife and I lived in Hamilton. I would have continued on, but we decided to come back to Toronto. It was nice to be involved in something right at street level.

I wish you, and your congregation a successful transition.  I will be waiting for updates on just how you finance it - when you said it overlooked a lakeI wondered if that meant it would make a good place for medtation workshops?  Or a wee Tea Room so those walking along the lake could stop for some refreshments?

Love these ideas. Perhaps the tearoom could even serve free samples on the beach.

I like the tea room idea Kay. I'll ponder that.

It was a doggie daycare Canine grooming place on one half and a 2 bedromm residence on the other half. Doggie side will become worship space.

We need to raise 250,000 before the end of June. That combined with some savings, should make us eligible for a commercial mortgage.

To date $75, 000 has been raised and an offer of a $150,000 mortgage at favourable rates.

Any chance of having a dog groomer rent one of the rooms?  Or having the church side double as a dance or music studio?  Just daydreaming on things that may help to pay the bills! 

This is awesome, tabitha.  

I love the idea of looking forward with creativity and hope.

i too wish you many success on this project.

Kay, why do you think it's okay for churches to rent out their spaces for commercial purposes?

Jae? Why wouldn't it be ok?  We are called to manage our resources appropriately.  

I was just asking Kay because she seems to be okay with the idea, whereas my own personal belief is that church-owned buildings shouldn't be used in that way. To do so reminds me of when Jesus kicked the merchants out of the temple.

We rent our church building out, but only to other churches and not)for-profit events and organizations.

One of the biggest mistakes my old UCCanada congregation ever did was to rent out a number of the Sunday School rooms to a commercial daycare provider. In what seemed like no time to me, that particular lower wing of the building stank with the stink of urine. As far as I know, that stench continues to this day. Not very inviting, I'd say. Perhaps this also colours my current thoughts about commercial use of church buildings to some extent.

Totally agree with you though, Pinga that we are to be responsible with our resources.

Toddler urine barely has an odour.  Maybe someone should have a talk with the custodian or cleaners about doing a more thorough job.

It may be important to look into the tax implications of renting to commercial business.   

I know that our congregation rents out our 'old manse' adjacent to our church for commercial purposes - business on the ground floor, apartment(s) above.  We pay high property taxes on that portion of our property.  

We also rent out five or six spaces on our small parking lot.  I don't know how that is handled.

And we have non-profit groups using our building - Big Brothers and Big Sisters, AA, etc.   Their donation helps cover the expenses of maintaining the building (heat, lights, water, maintenance).   So does having outside groups put on musical events in our sanctuary for a share in ticket sales. 

We are considering other ways we can make maximum use of our building seven days a week, and receive enough revenue to maintain this beautiful, historic building.

That may be true when you have one or two toddlers together. The result of having the daycare center in the building was that, imho, the lower wing reeked. Admittedly I tend to be rather sensitive to sensory stimuli, more so than most people are, I believe. 

I wonder if the UCCan has data on how many (if any) churches have leased out space for cell phone towers?  It seems the wireless companies are preying on churches.

I see advantages in renting space to other ventures as it would help with paying the costs of the building.  It also makes a lot of sense environmentally. Taking up land and power resources to host a small congregation is wasteful on several fronts.  In my community there are lots of churches and social clubs (Lions, Kinsmen etc) all having a building that takes up space and eats up heating fuel. Mostly these buildings are not being used more than a few hours a week.  To me it seems to be totally selfish foolishness.

Rental arrangements can be flexible too. Maybe the 'outside' group agree to do the grass cutting and snow clearing in lieu of cash rent.  There are some activities that may not be suitable - a brothel in the attic or basement maybe .

I can't magine a situation such as the one Jae described.  To me it seems obvious that the owner/s of the building would ensure that good care was being taken of the rented areas.  Thus far in my life I have never entered a day care facility that stank of urine.  I'm not sure that it would be allowed in this area where there are certain health standards imposed on the operators.  Staff have to be trained, cleanliness ensured, nutrition standards met and so on.

My UU fellowship rents but not to commercial interests. A local non-profit working with the disabled uses our hall 3 days a week and a Buddhist group rents it on Thursday nights. All longterm renters are reviewed for compatibility with our principles. We do also allow people to rent the hall for weddings and related events (e.g. the reception) though we've been cracking down on, and taking fewer of, related events like stag & doe parties.

My family UCCan rented to a day care for years (may still do so) and I don't recall any problems. My youngest brother even went there for a while IIRC. It was a co-op where the parents got involved in running the place so was likely a non-profit, though.

The local Kumon (a tutoring franchise where LIttle M has been going to boost his math skills) used to rent space in a UCCan but has moved into commercial office space. Not sure if they left or got booted. The franchisee is actually an active member of another UCCan (we met her and her husband, who also works in the business, in church one Sunday) so I don't think there would have been a compatibility issue.

I see no issue with a church making better us of their space by renting though I do think they need to have an eye on their principles (not in the UU sense but the broader sense) when they do so. For instance, I can't see a UCCan renting to a hardcore, anti-gay fundamentalist organization or a Baptist church renting to a progressive, process theology group.

Mendalla

Tabitha, sounds like an exciting time for your congregation.  I hope things go well for you.  One of our major fundraisers when we were trying to pay off our mortgage on our church building was to have fundraising suppers, which were supported and attended by those in our community - some our church people and some not.  We used to cook for about 120-140 people once a month and would profit anywhere from 500-1000 depending on the turnout and the costs for the supper.

Thanks for the thoughts all.

Yes if we use part of the building as commercial or money making there are tax implications.

Our no property tax exemption does not go with us. We would apply in Jan to get that status at this property.

If we are short of funds easiest answer is to rent out the residential side. Across from the Lake-weekly summertime rates are high. Off season rent would drop considerably.

We run Sunday services, a midmorning prayer group, a monthly creative arts time, a monthly healing hands times, food security-as needed, AA 2 x week, AL ANON 1x week, PFLAG monthly, (and I'm sure I've left out some).   We currently rent or loan space to other groups as needed.

We would partner with another non-profit if they wanted to rent out the 2 bedrooms-as offices-with 1 washroom and separate entrance.

Ok-feeling relieved. The head of the Presbytery executive thought we needed to hold another congregational meeting for approval. I had our board chair call him.

Turns out our meeting minutes should be clearer. That we can fix.

We don't want the congregation to get meeting out. We really have no other news for them-except we continue to move forward and remove the "subject to"s on our offer.

Presbytery concern was 1) did we give the congregation adequate notice for the meeting? The answer was YES

and 2) Was it a legal meeting with the minister and pastoral charge supervisor both absent? Yes The head of Presbytery" Property committee was attending in that role.

So here's hoping for more money arriving tomorrow!

Meanwhile we had our church's yard sale today. Lots of talking about the new possibilities.

OK the credit union turned us down for a mortgage as we do not fit their criteria of "making $17,000 per year on top of our expenses".

Sorry to hear. What next steps are being considered?

I am not surprised you were turned down for a mortgage

You really have no "regular "income. Just donations which will vary year to year.

I think one option would be to have someone from the congregation take out the mortgage, co sign....... But that is a huge personal risk

.
Our ballet school had this issue related to renovations which we needed funds for. Even though we were in existence for 25 years and had all that financial data, we really were reliant on ech years enrolment with no guarantees.

So four members of the board stepped up and loaned the school the money themselves. Personal loans to the school with schedule payments.......

It worked fine though

Our total cost will be over 1/2 million.

We do have a person who has offered 150,000 mortgage.

Trustees are exploring options with a mortgage broker.

Tab, what other option do you have to meet for worship?

My congregation isn't that big and we've been carrying a mortgage with the local credit union so I'm not sure what the cutoff would be. Admittedly, that mortgage was negotiated (a) when we were bigger, and (b) back before the 2008 financial crunch made people a lot more skittish about mortgages. We will have it paid off soon though, ironically, we are now debating our future, not just at this location but as an institution.

Mendalla

We do have an ok from the other UC congregation in town to locate ourselves on new property. (Oh the hoops one must jump through)

Fiance update: we now have 104,900 raised of the 250,000 we require for a down payment.

Prayers welcome!

prayers offered!

Tabitha - my prayers are added to those of others on the Cafe and in your congregation and community.  

We are up to $106, 300  with a goal of  $250,000 by end of June.

We plan on using 45,000 from our savings. More money needed.

Keep praying folks!

Just e-mailed BC Conference executive minister and we'll share a meal at Conference-to discuss the new venture of our church and paddling. We'd love some Conference support.

Wow! That is amazing. You have done wonderfully well.

Hope you find this support. Good luck with your meeting.

Ok this weeks total is $155,000 which is quite amazing for a small group of people.

I did have a meal with executive minister aat Conference and felt our church's story was heard.

Tabitha, have you considered posting your story in a fundraiser

Pinga-like crowdsource funding?

Pinga, it is so heartwarming to read that your congregation is looking to the future with hope and confidence and looking into buying their own building.  Our minister and some of the people on our Council seem to be so negative.  We keep hearing about churches closing, and others struggling to keep their doors open.  Without some very generous bequests in recent years we would be in deep trouble as well.  And we can't depend upon receiving bequests (each one is a blessing).  But I am confident that somehow we will manage if we continue to move forward and live out our mission.  I have no idea what the church of the future will look like.  I do believe that we will continue to be the church.

Seeler, it is tabitha's church

Yes, tabitha, just a thought

Sorry - I knew that.  I don't know why I typed your name.  Appologies to both of you.

No need to apologize, Seeler.

But she's Canadian  (yeah, yeah, go to the other thread).

Mendalla

Tabitha,

why doesn't your congregation get together in some sort of share-living-and-worhip-area?

The OK is perfect for that -- its a nice place away from the dog-eat-dog-self-interest-leave-the-house-as-soon-as-you-turn-16-culture...

Tabitha, does the OK feel like home yet?

some things to consider in raising money to keep your congregation going

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQGYr9bnktw]

Here's hoping you and yours thrives!

(and i'd be interested in hearing aboot any of your congregations' stretch goals they can come up with if they do choose crowdfunding...)

Thanks all.

It is with regret that we withdrew our offer on the property. Money was not the issue. BMO had offered us a favourable mortgage.

The problem was that the site contains buired underground tanks from when it was a gas station.

We would be responsible for them and  unable to do further building-and enviromental standards are so much higher now than 20 years when they were filled in.

It was one of our conditions "No underground tanks".

The congregation was told today.

We are still hoping to buy something somewhere-and with the $ we have-are in a much better place, but there is also a sense of disappointment.