You could pay them with a credit card, and then have the two signature payment of the credit card.

Not according to the credit union officer. Cheques or nothing.

For bill payments, can automatic ones be set up using the 2 signatures?

I would question him.  That is illogical.

That would imply that you can't buy stuff with a credit card for the church either.

Purchasing online with a credit card vs purchasing at a store with a credit card is the same thing.

Payment of said credit card would be by cheque and require two signatures, unless a work around was found for the auto matic payment.

In addition, two signatures would be required for the form presentation of the expense.

1.  Get credit card statement.

2.  Recnoncile credit card statement to expenses submitted with appropriate signing officers

3.  Pay credit card via approved format , which could be cheque with two signatures.

Her. I don't write the rules. I just was told what we could and could not do.

We don't. We have accounts with suppliers like Staples. We charge stuff on line and at the store to our account. No credit card required. We were paying utility bills on line and transferring funds to M & S electronically. Can't do that, either. Only by cheque. The up side is that we only pay $2.25/month for banking services.

Then whomever you are speaking through did not think through the logic.

Credit cards are used by people to buy things, it allows for them not to have to put their money up front or get a cheque, and take advatnage of pricing / etc.

If it works for you not to have one, great.   

It didn't for our congregation.

They are a credit union officer. They know their rules. What you think is irrelevant. We have to play by  their rules, logical, by your standards, or not.

So do having accounts with authorized buyers.

lol, I work with auditors.  They play by the rules.  The rules are always up for discussion.

Again, it works for you.  That does not mean a credit card is a bad idea.

Hi Folks

I comment in my role as CFO for the national church.   Online banking makes sense now but you do need to change your policy and have some safeguards.

Two signatures is considered best practice not just by the church but by the accounting profession.  It WAS also a requirement of our insurance plan.

That said, one must also consider the practical aspect around chasing signatures.  We have been working with Hub and Aviva to get a practical solution.  This is one of the benefits of belonging to a larger plan.  You would never get concessions like this on your own. 

Aviva, our insurer, has agreed that there can be an amount threshold for the two signature requirement.

Specifically, they will allow a policy of having just one signature for cheques up to $1,000.  This will probably cover 90+% of all cheques written yet still provide some safeguard for large amounts.  (My own church has authorized our administrator to issue cheques under her signature up to $500).  I would respectfully suggest that a church wishing to use online banking agree to the $1,000 limit and obtain two signatures for larger cheques. 

Similar logic applies to electronic banking.  By definition there is one user accessing the online payment feature.  Payments should be authorized by two people if over $1000 and then paid by the person with online access.

 I hope this is helpful.  I don't think we want to argue for never having two signatures.   It is simply prudent to have some safeguards.  I like to remind folks that successful frauds are never committed by folks who weren't trusted. 

Thanks Erik for your trusted "expert" opinion.

Hi Erik

Excellent point.  I can even point to one instance where the two signature safeguard failed simply because the two signatories colluded to embezzle funds.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Erik, our credit union (Meridian) says absolutely no to online bill payment and transfers of money. End of story. No negotiation. Other financial institutions may have other rules. The officer I spoke with quoted FINTRAC regulations.

As do I in a variety of settings. The rules may be up for "discussion", but at the end of the day the auditor has to be able to sign off on the reports. I am on the board of a TPA funded by the Ontario Ministry of Health with a multi-million dollar budget. Their rules are not up for discussion.

Erik is the definitive word in UCCan banking: Thanks for paying attention and offering your expertise. 

Please keep in mind that banks have a fiduciary duty to protect THEMSELVES; for credit unions, their members are their corporate body, and that may be the background for this very definitive declaration.

and, note:  paying by credit card is different than online automatic payments.

Paying by credit card can require an itemized statement with clear accounts documented and two signatures.

Really easy to do in a process that will meet audit requirements

Both are required to meet the requirements of their auditors,banking regulations and FINTRAC. The fact that a credit union is "owned by members" is probably less important. For that matter, our church owns stock in our credit union, beyond the regular membership fee, as I do personally.