that's an interesting concept pinga - will ponder.

What do you think folks?

Could "wondercafe" community, form itself into a pastoral charge?

Think out of the box a bit and consider the following

Wondercafe has been a community of people, some members, some adherents for a period of years.

It has most of the elements of a congregation.

It has generated an inventory which though belong to the united church of canada are the product of its members.

If it was a pastoral charge, it could change physical buildings upon approval by presbytery, without issue, moving the churches property with it.

If so, I would recommend we look to the most creative presbytery out there to make the proposal too.

Link to the manual: http://www.united-church.ca/files/handbooks/manual_2013.pdf

Unofficially, I see wondercafe as congregation.  I'm not very fluent in church speak, but I like the idea :)

I'm not sure that we are a congregation, but I think we fit as a "mission" (see page 50). Is there a presbytery that's ready for something like us? I'm not sure mine is?

That's a very creative idea. Thanks Pinga.

As a pastoral charge, one can be shut down by presbytery if you are dysfunctional, but in most cases, you exist as an entity.

You have requirements of structure and various operating models.  You may have a minister, but recognize that some do not have ordered ministry due to funding, they are run by layity or have ministers who fill supply or minister emeritus functions.

There are rules around what adherents can't do, but, they can participate fully in most activities of the congregation (so chansen, mendella -- you can definitely do the admin role). 

They are not geographically bound as students away at university or folks who have travelled far & away still have their membership often in the home congregation.

They need to pay dues...based on membership, not on adherents.

They need to pay their own way or be recognized and supported as a mission of the church

They are encouraged to contribute to the wider church

I think we are already a community.  I guess we could be a congregation.

But I don't think we will find a presbytery to approve us .

We reside within many presbeteries bounds, so yes, it would take some interesting interpretation of that statement; however, the blessings of the congregational aspect of the united church of canada, would mean that this is more likely to be able to occur.

(This came to me as I thought about what was said regarding shutting it down.  It dawned on me that no one would say that to a congregation with a physical building, though often times they should, without thinking about the congregation, the element of community that is at the core of the congregation.   The stream of thoughts let me to why was it feeling bad that someone would say that about wondercafe (and clearly it stung a few folks), and i it is because we are a congregation ....and then it dawned on me, then why aren't we identified as one?  If we are one, then we can dump this old building and enjoy building a new one, and take our membership with us....and our inventory of communion cups, liturgy, stained glass, writings, small group material, etc)

I also thought EDGE had a fund for new mission plants, but I can't find it right now. I'll ask.

Part of my worry is that WonderCafe as a pastoral charge would face the same challenges as a congregation that can't afford to keep it's building. What do congregations do in a situation like that?

meet in homes or find cheaper buildings

We already know about a few of those options for wondercafe....

So lay people, potentially could contribute in many ways, and perhaps some ministers and misters emeriti could possibly contribute some time (and/or be paid for some kinds of service, I assume) for oversight and to carry out duties that lay persons are not permitted to do - is that kind of the layout, Pinga?

In that case, a thought has occurred to me:

if a creative presbytery is being sought, it might also be a very good idea to consider areas that have universities with divinity programmes and affiliations with UCCan - just thinking there might be a whole group of people studying and teaching in a geographic region who might be interested in this novel idea and also be willing to help out with volunteering, expertise and experience and they would be members of the church and wider community.

Don't throw anything at me Pinga, but I still think we could try for some grant funds :)

Also, if enough people are interested, as far as I can gather from the UCCan site, there might be some funding available, just to start up, as long a s we could put together a plan to show how (and there are many ways), we could become a sustainable entity on our own.

Specifically, I was intrigued by this information:

http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/church-life/consider-could-wondercaf...

It is Advent. And this gives me Hope.

Redhead, I am unsure why a virtual church congregation would care about picking a presbytery with a presence of a theological college -- unless you think they would be more likely to agree with it.  I just don't presuppose that those who are in the university area of the church are more  likely to think outside of the box than another presbytery

I might be tempted to look at the presbytery who brought in Sask-1 as it was a creative motion brought to GC...or see if there is a presbytery that steps up to say, "let's do it"

One of the questions that I think that would have to be considered in a pastoral charge is membership rolls.  Maybe we are like the "summer cottage" pastoral charge that has significantly more people in attendance than the membership rolls would indicate.  

Not sure how missions work.

I guess, Pinga, I thought by this part you were wondering about where and how WC would operate.

So, is the idea that we could somelow create a virtual pastoral charge and the hardware and storage and management could stay where it is currently located?

Or moved to a creative presbytery location?

I guess that is why I am a little confused a physical location. Sorry.

There is no physical requirement of location for the congregation of WonderCafe United Church of Canada.  Hardware/storage is in the cloud , hosted by some vendor. Administrators can be anywhere. members can be anywhere.  

If you follow the analogy of a physical congregation, the physical congregation  can change locations or buildings based on presbytery approval.  When they do they take their "stuff" with them.  They can choose to rent space, ie do not need to own property, shucks, they can meet in homes.

For wondercafe, there is no physical presence, but we have a virtual presence.  That virtual presence has data which is stored in databases.  Those database elements are the equivalent of our stuff.  The software & hardware are the structure in which our stuff resides. They are the equivalent of the church building.

If we are a virtual congregation, then we can say the current software is out of date, too expensive to maintain and propose moving to a new home taking our stuff with us. 

In this approach, where we feel we can name ourselves as a congregation, the first part would be to be named as a congregation with appropriate structures in place as required by the manual.

A virtual congregation could be connected to ANY presbytery.    

Based on that proposal being approved  the congregation would  look and plan to move to a new location.....it could be a short move to a new location starting fresh with new software and hardware in one of many hosting models or one that brings our stuff with us (the historical data of wondercafe)

Hi Pinga,

Maybe not a pastoral charge.  Perhaps a Mission.  A Presbytery would still need to provide oversight and that might be a tough sell since WonderCafe.ca is a virtual entity.

Unless a majority of members are located in the geographic bounds of a specific presbytery I can't see any Presbytery agreeing to take on more work in terms of oversight.

I note that All Circle Conference is not a geographic entity.  So perhaps an electronic Conference could be formed which would have oversight of electronic congregations or missions.

It would also be subject to assessment.  Would we base our assessment numbers on registered members?  According to the Member list WonderCafe.ca has 20, 372 members.  How soon before we purge the rolls if we have to start paying for each membership on an annual basis?

Do we distinguish between members and adherents?  On what basis?

What governance model do we choose?  If WonderCafe.ca becomes a pastoral charge do we call a clergy person to serve the pastoral charge and if so how do we set a housing allowance?  By the Presbytery providing oversight or where said clergy person dwells.  Do we look for full-time, part-time and who functions as the treasurer and connects with ADP to ensure that the clergy person is paid?

Grace and peace to you.

John

John, we have a group connected to our church, or did for years, that was called "Seeds of Faith".  It was a house church.  It did not have a clergy person, though, did pay for supply ministry, I believe.  

The members here are like the guest book at the church.  Just like any congregation, people would choose to say " i wish to support thisministry through my membership", which is a heck of a lot different than showing up on a sunday or two ..or signing up for an account.   You want to be a member, you come through the same guidelines as a congregation.

Good question, which governance model would be pick.  Do you have a suggestion?

I sense there are presbyteries that are more willing than others to consider new ideas.    I do like the idea of the electronic conference, with virtual congregations.  We heard of a couple today.

How is it done traditionally?

I'm just reading along. I've no clue about any of this.....:(

Here's an amazing church in Sarnia  that has a Wondercafe group with pics. of the people. I wonder if any of them are active  here on the WC?  Really nice place. They also have free computer training offered and a video on it.

http://www.united-church.ca/local/statistics/churchrolls

excerpt

What is an adherent?

An adherent is a person who is known to your congregation and is affiliated in some way with your congregation, but is not a confirmed or professed member of the congregation. Hence the person is not on your congregation's membership roll of confirmed members and would not be considered a member of The United Church of Canada.

Are adherents the same as inactive members? No. Some adherents can be very active in the life of your local congregation. However, for whatever reason, they choose not to make a profession of faith and become confirmed members of the church. Other adherents may be totally inactive and have only the most tenuous of relationships with the congregation, usually for the rites of passage such as marriages and funerals.

Hi Pinga,

My sense is that WonderCafe.ca does not feel a need for paid accountable ministry of any designation.  I suspect those of us who are members of faith would turn to the nearest flesh and blood in celebrating a rite of passage.

Yet if we want to be a congregation there are some expectations.  One is that we have a vacancy which needs to be filled in some way.  The second is that we will support the work of Presbytery.  At present that is one incumbent minister and (if we claim a membership of 500+ about 4 other Presbyters.

At present we cannot simply support a presbytery electronically.  They are going to want to have some face to face accountability.

If we decide that rather than be a congregation we would rather be a congregational mission then WonderCafe.ca becomes a function of that congregation's mission and in that instance  neither assessment rates not vacancies are something we need to worry about.  Governance would be under the oversight of the Pastoral Church to which we would be attached.

Not at present.  

While I tend to agree I haven't heard of one willing to take responsibility for oversight of a ministry that is not going to contribute in a real way to the life and work of the presbytery.

For example here at Erie if we took it on we would be expecting that there would be Presbyters and I'm not familiar with many members in this particular Presbytery.

I'm on the fence.  As places to chat the idea works fine.  Outside of that the pastoral reality is greater than I think the electronic can manage.

How would I (as an example) be real presence for a member in Yellowknife in the event of a pastoral emergency.  Do I book a flight or send a tweet?  There have been times in my life where I have needed flesh and blood to be present not 140 characters at a time.

I like the virtual community.  I don't think it translates to congregation.  Primarily because congregation is everyone gathered together and not all of us huddled around individual screens.

The virtual communion/agape meals we have had here just do not work for me because I need others to be physically present.  And that is me, and introvert, saying that for sacrament I cannot be alone staring at a screen.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I like their motto: A ship in the harbour is safe, but that's not what ships are built for.

The good ship wondercafe is temporarily lost at sea, without a safe home harbour. Maybe they'll let us berth and register in their harbour, so that we may sail forth from it and explore new depth?

I like that quote to, i used that at a security conference recently in a presentation about servers...hmmm....coincidence?

Thanks Pinga.  I've typically glossed over/ignored the church stuff in the past.

Revjohn, I can think of times when the members of wondercafe were able to reach out to people who were in dire straits,and connect them with support structures in their physical place when those present in those locationsdidn't even know there was an issue.  

To what point?  And funded through???? (PayPal?)  And governed by?

Arminius

Here's a prayer from that Central UC   website. They must be rather lost themselves? Perhaps I should google to see what orphanages might accomodate us? WC   Membership says 20,000 some.......?...but I believe there are only a few hundred active members if that many? I think a lot of the 20,000 figure is spam...?....Stephen Booth or somebody was busy...? if you look at the membership list so many members have very identical info. ...?

Quote from Central UC:

I found this prayer in a book by Stanley Hauerwas. It seems appropriate to our theme of journeying together in a time where there are no maps:

Adrift at Sea, Thank God

Lord of the Waters, you have set us adrift in a trackless ocean, in a leaky boat with no oars or rudder. “Rudderless” nicely describes our situation, but matters are worse. Even if we had a rudder, we would not know which direction to go. We are not even sure if there are any directions – of if there are any directions, we so distrust our wants that we do not know which way we really want to go.

In short, we feel lost and, so feeling, think it is probably your fault. Yet you refuse to let us drown in self-pity and blame. Instead you drown us in your good kingdom, the death and resurrection of Jesus our Lord, making us part of that great ark, your church.

The winds of your love blow that ark out to sea, away from the shores we think might provide safety, so that we might take on board the drowning. How wonderful it is that the more that are taken on board, the less your ark is crowded and the safer we are.

Thank you for making us steady sailors who have no reason to fear the unknown, having learned you would have us be at sea. Amen.

Stanley Hauerwas, Prayers Plainly Spoken, p. 32-33.

I'm not following your question? gordW.

Individuals are naming wondercafe as more than a site, but, rather a community, and for some, their faith community.  

Of course the questions regarding oversight, structure, etc would have to be addressed, but the first questions is......could  it be defined as a congregation 

Pinga,

so would it be part of your idear that WC become a 501 (c), with a CEO/Prime Minister/Grand PooBah, Secretary, Executive Tickler, etc etc?

(I am totally getting a singularitarian vibe off of this...:3)

(to read how the online/digital is different from meatspace, check out Douglas Rushkoff's "Present Shock")

huh?

the big part of this one is the inventory of posts would stay within the united church of canada space.....though transferred from gc oversight to the congregation/mission

i was trying to ask if you are imagining Wondercafe getting non-profit status with all that entails?

I am wonderig if as we are geographically in many conferences if we would be best as a mission responsible to one of the divisions of GCE ? 

Does the UCC have a division of home missions any more ?

I like the way your mind works Pinga.  If I was your teacher I'd give you an A+ for creativity and flexible thinking!

My mind is barely functioning right now, but maybe I'l have something to add tomorrow.. 

Rodney, no idea...but, love to hear what others think.

yup, that would be one of the advantages.

Above, I posred the incorrect link, re missions and organisations and programs financially supported bu UCCan, throughout Canada (2012).

Found on the UCCan site

http://www.united-church.ca/files/funding/msfund/canadian-partners.pdf

Sorry about that - I seem to have a lot of problems copying and pasting.

and apparently double posting and typing in general - sorry about that.

In another thread persons muse on some ideal forms for the United Church. With that in view, it seems to me that Pinga has opened a genuine possibility.

We constitute a community with a great diversity of interest and concern. With some creative engagment we may find our way, as fellow guests in the Cafe, to the expression of some common purpose. Our diverse insights and abilities should be adequate to the challenge.

We have one thing in common. We like to come here to practice dialogue. We find benefit in the diverse critical perspectives by which our own assumptions are tested and found adequate or wanting. We have opportunity to grow in our own understanding and capacity for the communication of that understanding. 

In this we serve as exemplars to those who look on and listen in. These find opportunity to hear persons of diverse perspective express alternative imaginations. Sorting through the posted conversations, these persons have time to reflect on personal imagination and commitment. Lives are being changed in small and large ways, even if not seen or acknowledged.

We are in effect a circle of perspective looking to discover ways and means to serve our common hunger for that truth by which we are set free from all that divides and conquers human being in nature.

WonderCafe has provided an open space for the expression of difference and the pursuit of clarity in language for the expression of insight and encouragement.

George

thanks George

ty 

so that would mean that WC would have to have a board of directors?

It would have to have some form of a board.   Then again, I can't imagine a wondercafe that I wished to be a part of that didn't have some form of an organizational structure/board..

Where do you see the lines of accountabilty?

Things to consider in how to set up a not for profit.

http://www.corporationcentre.ca/docen/home/faq.asp?id=incnp

Note:  a Not-for-profit does not automatically have charitable status.  Typically it also takes longer to get thann two years to get charitable sstatus after a not-for-profit is incorporated (even though CRA says it takes up from 12 to 18 months).

https://charityvillage.com/topics/quickguides/starting-a-nonprofit.aspx

These links might help to understand how to set up a not-for-profit, the costs, and the difference of being a not-for-profit and a not-for-profit with charitable status.

ALso of note: there are not only different fees for registration provincially, from province to province, but sometimes different regulations.

Agreed, redhead. 

I would prefer to fit into the existing united church of canada structures, as as such, it would be acongregation / mission without all the extra baggage and work of a separate instance.

***************************

Folks, the initial question is.....could it be a congregation?  

Wondering if others have any thoughts re manual rules.