Why not ask your g_d for an answer?

A group is a group of individuals. If "the Spirit" is working in all, or most, of those hearts, then I suppose it is working in the group. Could they all receive the Spirit (which I tend to see as a metaphor for inspiration, energy coming from The Divine) through being in the group? I could see it. That is certainly what the story of Pentecost seems to mean.

 

mendalla

 

At Mount Sinai, God was supposed to have spoken to all of the Jewish people at once, not just Moses. (Men women and children) This is according to the Torah, Deuteronomy 5:1-4. This supports the Jewish claim that no one should just listen to one man and to make their claim authentic for Judaisms belief in God, an entire nation heard it, and then appointed Moses as their spokesperson or leader. So yes,according to the Old Testament, it is possible for many to receive revelation. IMO also.

 

I believe I read somewhere that it is also one of the ways that the Jews claim we will all know the Messiah when he comes. He will be revealed to everyone all at once.

 

http://www.aish.com/jl/p/ph/Did_God_Speak_at_Sinai.html

A thing that confuses me is why people say it is god at work. Sounds like conscience working to me.

i suppose that is the difference between an atheist and an theist. The word itself is a matter of different vocabulary.

Ianna- you can ask that question in all threads (maybe except for the "what's your favourite ....."? ) but- this is a discussion forum- so it's looking for input for others.

Hi mrs.anteater,

 

 

I would imagine that it would have been a bit of both.

 

If the narratives are at all trustworthy individual lives were changed and those individuals wer able to touch other lives and provide a catalyst for further change.

 

And yet the narratives do not capture the day to day in everywhere and everyplace.

 

What was going on daily in Jerusalem after the tongues of fire visited those in that particular house?  What went on daily in Ceasarea after Peter came to the house of Cornelius?  What about Corinth or Ephesus or Damascus?

 

Something was happening or the Church would not have survived as it did.

 

Part of our problem is that we tend to think that there is only one way that the Church can grow when the Church has to adapt to each new place and each new circumstance.  In the early days it had a lot of new places to adapt to and a lot of individuals helping to get Churches established.

 

Some were no doubt a part because of strong personal and individual experiences.  They are like seed that was just ready to burst open and did so dramatically.  Others were no doubt a part because of strong groupings.  These were like seed that needed more time to germinate before it was ready to sprout.  They learned the ins and outs of the community of faith long before faith became a decidedly personal experience.

 

If we take as given that the Holy Spirit works directly on the heart of individuals we would have to accept, as given, that the Holy Spirit works indirectly on the lives of those who connect to the individual.  As more individuals gather together the impact of the Holy Spirit multiplies.  Not only am I being directly impacted in my own heart I am able to witness the same happen in others.

 

One of the interesting differences between Church now and Church then is the agenda.  The agenda of the early Church was simply to multiply and so they shared what being a part of a Church meant to them.  They shared how they had been changed and that change must have been noticed in some.  Church was not, in that day, and institution to be served it was an impetus to serve.

 

Nowadays, thanks to institutionalism, that has changed.  Many Churches exist not to serve but to be served and that has stained congregations and individuals as well.  Survivalist Churches concerned only with their own comfort or their own future serving self-centred saints more concerned that they don't have to change or take risks.  Who think that evangelism is about bringing in more income rather than sharing the abundance of grace they have been given.

 

Groups aren't really a problem, at least no more of a problem than the individuals who make them up.

 

Groups can work for the good and benefit of others as well as, and sometimes better than any individual.

 

When a group goes bad it can be a force for destruction as dangerous as, and most always worse than any individual.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Is this one of those "how many angels can sit on the head of a pin" kind of discussions like they used to have in the Middle Ages?

Hi Mres anteater-- Your post--

So, was Pentecost an individual experience/change of heart, or was it group dynamic- does the spirit work in one's soul only or can it influence groups?

______________________________________

Airclean--What happened on the day of pentecost happened to a group of people . About a 120 they all recived GODS Spirit together. But the in filling of the Spirit is private between each person and GOD.It is GOD comeing in to be a part of you forever.All that is GOD is with you, to help you and guide you in all things. You have become a child of the Living GOD and have His power with you.. And when you come together with others who have been in filled . . You are both stronger. Look what GODS word said happened when many were together.Even walls shake.

Acts--4:31  ---

Act 4:31

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Our GOD is a living GOD, He is a Mighty GOD who through Him all things are possible.This is what is happing to His church. They have forgotting to who they pray. I tell you if you have Him with you and in you . This will not happen.--May your walk this day be well. --airclean33

Thanks John, for your long response. I suppose my problem is that I cannot trust in groups. Not enough positive experience with same.
While I think I can more clearly see positive "spirit" effects in individuals-because this always shows in people being honest, same doesn't happen in groups-or, at least, I have never experienced it.

I have experienced joyful, almost ecstatic christian groups or events, which makes me wonder if it is just the manipulation of the moment,an overall feel good.
(Thousands of Germans cried " yes" at a mass event when Hitler asked: " Do you want the total war?".) i just have to think of that when
I see music, rhetoric ,effects used to create a common feeling in a group.
You are right, it is about serving. And individuals would be so much more effective if supported by a group. And it's the ones who are served who could tell the difference if its serving or self-serving.
I just don't see any examples that are working in the long run because people would have to be honest with each other and vulnerable.

 

*chuckle*

you're gonna let that stop you?

why not try to ask your g_d and then, if you want, tell us here what He says, if you want?

 

this is a serious question of mine

 

rhetorical, of course -- not offered in expectation of an answer...but you may not have ever considered it at all, just like sombunall of you may have not either

 

but yeah, WC rambling and riffing is the name of the game here :3

Thanks,Inanna, I get what you mean. My experience is that God doesn t speak like he did to Moses, loud and clear and with a thundering voice. It s more hidden in an overall experience. And putting up a question on WC might just be part of the answers.

Hi mrs.anteater,

 

 

 

That's fair.

 

Is it groups in general or groups of a certain size?

 

 

While experience can be a great teacher it may not vary enough to provide a balanced teaching.  Repeated negative experiences with anything teaches us how destructive the negative can be and yet, it never has the potential to show us the beauty that can be found.

 

 

Groups are different.  

 

Any honest individual placed in a group is going to find honest conflict in short order.  The honest optimist is going to argue with the honest pessimist about just how full the glass of water is.

 

How the group deals with that honest conflict will shape how honest the group wants to be.

 

Still, I find smaller groups much easier to trust and work with than I do larger groups.

 

 

I hear you.

 

I wish I could remember who is responsible for the following quote, I find it very informative in group events:  "beware the dry-eyed preacher before a teary-eyed congregation, trust the teary-eyed preacher before a dry-eyed audience."

 

 

This, I think, is why most healthy congregations have a spine built out of small groups.  It is the small groups which provide the healthy relationships and support that every Christian needs if they are to spiritually mature.

 

That leaves the worship open to inspire and energize while the small-group provides the bulk of education and direction for service.

 

While there is a lot of attention given to "megachurches" and the size of their constituencies the real strength that allowed these congregations to reach "megachurch" status has been their attention to small groups.

 

I know of one United Church in the city of Hamilton which used to be very intentional about small group ministry.  I don't know if that is something which is still happening.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Thanks John, that s a lot of food for thought and it s so true.
Congregations think that committees are their small groups- I don t think that's working, because those committees are just mixed together out of people who sign up for different reasons, but don t have a good relationship and a common drive to act. And monthly meetings don t contribute to making this relationship any better. Small group ministry must be something better than that.

i have been trying to create small groups, but have been experiencing resistance over and over again from the minister and committees who want to have control right into the last detail.
Institutionalization of the church.

And the members are hesitant to do things on their own.