Just  read it a few minutes ago - Loved it and made me think  - worship as irony--- worship as absurd.

Personally, I am split on this issue.  From the time I first learned this hymn as a child, the call was to be as coujrageous and disciplined as soldiers in our resistance to evil in the world, and it was a call to an alternative to war based on violence.  But I know how it is heard and used by others, uses that miss the metaphors and similes, and make the song literal.

If we want to be "theologically correct", then there are a whole lot of hymns that we were brought up with that should be scrapped!  I think that most of us just like to sing these hymns because they are familiar or nostalgic or we like the tune, and not because we subscribe to or agree with the words.  I don't know, -- is that a bad thing?

When I first joined the United Church of Canada, I missed all of the old hymns, but do believe that many of the words of the newer hymns in Voices United, are better.  What I still don't like is singing one of the older hymns where the words have been changed to make them more theologically, or gender, correct.  I will be singing along, thinking that I know the words without looking at the hymn book, when -- oops-- the words have been changed!

In the case of OCS, while I do find the words problematic, I could make use of them in  a point-counterpoint type of way.  BUt the tune drives me absolutely batty.  In any case it is not part of my upbringing--in that I have little to no memory of singing it in church as a child, teen or young adult.

Long made the point he had resisted it for years but singing it a small congregation brought tears to his eyes - it was the ironic aspect of singing this hymn with committment in a congregation that had seen better years.  They had hope and purpose that transcended the words, and actually made them real.  It is all about context - say it again - it is all about context.

I'm all for singing the hymn, and twice on Sunday. It's got a snappy tune, and the words are welcome in my ears.

I can take or leave "Onward Christian Soldiers" - but Dr.Tom Long's article is beautifully written........

I agree with theologian Frederick Beuchner's view, "that unbidden tears are a sign of God's presence" - so God was in that little Methodist church alongside Tom Long.

That's one of the key theological points Long makes in his latest book on funerals. What we do IS absurd.

Unfortunately there is an element of Christianity which seems to be rather obsessed with blood, war and death. They also seem to be obsessed with homosexuality, but I'm not sure if that is related.

Are you coming on to me?

Why is it that some of the best tunes to sing have the worst words theologically????

It wasn't 'Onward Christian Soldiers' but one year I was asked to lead worship in my church in erly November.  Somehow, whenever I started to think about the service, the words 'Lest we forget' kept running through my head.  I phoned our choir director and asked her if she knew Rudyard Kipling's 'Recessional', from the little blue Hymnary. 

She remembered it.  She would check it out.  The next day she got back to me; was I sure I wanted it?   Yes.

How about two stanzas?   OK. 

So she picked the two stanzas she felt she could lead in our congregation.  We sang them.  Never again. 

In case you are feeling a bit of nostalgia for the 'good old hymns' and wonder why they aren't in the newer hymn books, check them out.  Read the words -- slowly.  Is this really what you believe?

I would rather sing some of the hymns than I would The American National Anthem.

It was a good article.

But we should not confuse a hymn with a sermon. A hymn conveys a general feeling - not words. I'm very fond of Kipling's Recessional. There's a sense of humility and reality in it. And the music is good. A hymn,  unlike a sermon, is smorgasbord table. You can take what you want, and ignore the rest.

We also need those old hymns to remind us where we were, how we have changed, and why. - as in all things bright and beautiful.....

The rich man at his castle

The poor man at his gate

God made them high and lowly

And ordered their estate.

In fact, one could get more than a few good sermons out of those out-of-style hymns.

We need reminders of where we were, where we are now, and where we should be going.

Crazyheart - I quite agree. Worse is America the Beautiful.

To sing a hymn that understands God in a way we used to can be a good idea. To sing something that co-opts God as a state employee is quite another.

Where are the words?

I recently heard a story of how John Wesley gathered followers and sent them out in pairs, as Christ sent out his disciples, to evangelise; as the story went, he sent them forth "as soldiers of Christ," to carry the word to others.

Not sure of the veracity of that story, but for me it puts Onward Christian Soldiers in a different light.

These old songs and hymns that may not seem "correct" in relationship/contrast   to the teachings of Jesus, are precisely why they should be kept. It shows how mankind and yes even the church, can lead themselves down the wrong path time and time again, following the ways off mankind rather than of the Kingdom, making God to suit their image rather than the other way around. Justification. If the misdirection towards the ideals of man causes one to question... then those who do so are definitely on the right path and have benefited..Hypocrisy is one of the greatest teachers.

go to utube and type in Kipling's Recessional

Here's the wiki on Kipling's Recessional which includes the original poem. Interestingly, the article suggests (with supporting reference to a recent book on Kipling) that it was meant as a reflection on the transience of empire before God rather than as a glorification of empire so maybe, just maybe, it's salvageable if seen in that light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recessional_(poem)

As for "Onward Christian Soldiers", I'm not crazy about the tune and the wording, while I realize that there are many ways to read and interpret it, does leaving itself open to use as a kind of anthem for Christiandom or Christian dominionism so I'm not fond of it.

Mendalla

Only in your dreams. Go back to sleep.

I like that hymn....why do we get rid of that which is misinterpreted in modern day instead of giving a history lesson or learning experience?  I'm fairly young and I get that the song speaks not of human war but spiritual war. 

   Every time I hear the song, which is not often, I think of Little House on the Prairie.  That was their go to song in most church scenes.  So when my sisters and I were young and it was in that days worship we got excited because we got to sing like we were in Walnut Grove. 

At some point it stopped being sung regularly. It would pop up every now and then during a service where older hymns were sung.   To this day it still the Little House on the Prairie song to me.  I don't think I ever paid much attention to the words.  I was too busy pretending I was singing beside Laura Ingalls in my bonnet and pigtails. 

Will have to haul out my old blue hymn book!

I remember Onward Christian Soldiers as a Sunday School hymn. I always found the tune stirring and it surprises me that so many people dislike it.

The words certainly imply a Christian imperialism which we no longer embrace. But they reflected a common Christian attitude of the day.

Even as a child, I never thought the words referred to actual physical warfare.

Thanks seeler. I listened to it, I read the words on screen. It didn't really sink in. It was a bit boring.

It's a spiritually obnoxious hymn based on toxic metaphors of militarism and imperialism — values I believe are inimical to Jesus' teaching. It should be seen as a period piece, a grotesque reminder of why Christianity alienates so many people. 

Squirrellover: "Spritual war"? You mean "Jihad"? You mean beating down native spiritualities? "Spiritual war" is precisely what residential schools were all about; it's why churches played sych a brutal, evil role in sustaining them. The damage was caused by physical and sexual abuse to be sure, but the most crushing and debilitating impacts were spiritual.

This is what happens when Christianity is seen or lead by those of the world who have not yet grasped the concept of Jesus gospel of the kingdom. They can only relate by worldly ideals and imagery. This whole soldier concept has grown, especially to the south, where the concept now for putting on the armour means aggression against that which does not suit ones idea of how the world should be run in a Christian way rather than warding off the evil of our own nature. the attacks on certain elements of society while ignoring the commandments and social teachings of Jesus show how failure to leave the fleshy world can alienate others of that fleshy world.

We can't promote the will of God using the traditional tools of His adversary.

What is the name of the internal struggle we all have with being obedient to God and resisting evil?  Is that not called spiritual war?  If not, I apologise for using an incorrect term.

I'd say that's your spiritual journey, sqirrellover.

Don't apologise! But the inner struggle maybe should be more about embracing the divine centre within: "the kingdom", more than making a big deal out of things like "obedience" (which can get a bit formulaic — and wrong-headed), and "resisting evil" (which can externalise morality and personify 'bad' as "the devil", "Satan" or whatever… and  — by extension — making it all "god's fault", instead of something we can shed like old clothes). The journey to fullness "in god" is not a struggle — it's liberation from struggle; it's a plunge into love.

The soldierly way is about taking objectives and destroying everything and anyone who stands in the way (as a British Colonel once told me, explaining why the miltary should NEVER be used against "terrorists": it just raises their credibility and creates more; better to arrest them and give them their day in open court where their motives can be weighed against the evidence. Soldiers are NOT trained to gather evidence," he said.) 

It struck me at the time that the pursuit of "truth" — the day in "court" — is maybe ALWAYS better than making a fight out of everything. The problem is fear — but we CAN put fear aside by procrastinating a bit and getting on with the truth seeking anyway, and then we often find the fear was unnecessary in the first place. And peace reaches more deeply that we'd imagined it could. And we weren't so "bad" after all. Just in pain. And, after all, we are forgiven.

Just look at and spend some time with the beauty all around — torrents of it: God's language of love.

One time during bible study I gave my opinion on something and our minister responded with "that's very catholic of you".  I didn't have a clue what he meant and so felt stupid and completely shut down and withdrew.  Now my parents were married in the United Church and I went a few times a year when Gran came to town  but mostly I attended a catholic church down the road with a friend because I found it thrilling all that stand up, sit down, kneel down, get back up again. I suffered from ants in my pants as a kid.  I'm sure the catholic influences along with my childhood of "what has she done now!" has left it's mark on me.   You are right on a few things 

I think journeys that involve learning are full of struggles though eh?  As well, I don't have the experience of war as you do and so unfortunately we are shocked when future generations don't grasp the full meaning of a piece written "before their time". 

In apologizing I wanted you to know I respect what it means to you.

Many spiritual traditions have the concept of a "spiritual warrior." But what  a spirtual warrior fights and overcomes are his own weaknesses, his egocentric self.

Kiping was a strange mix of the worst of imperialism combined the the best of human compassion and Spirituality. When I was five or so, I had to memorize him to recite Gunga Din to visitors:

Though I'll meet him later on

In the place where he has gone

Where it's always double drill and no canteen.

'e'll be squattin' on the coals

Givin' drinks to poor damn souls

And I'll get a swig in hell from Gunga Din.

and, somewhere in there - though I've belted you and flayed you. by the livin' God that made made you, you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din....

Still love it. Love Recessional, words and music. Far called, our navies melt away, On dune and headland sinks the fire. Lo! All our pomp of yesterday, is one with Nineveh and Tyre, Lord God of hosts be with us yet.... and the swelling of the music - lets we forget, lest we forget.

With all his faults, Kipling was always at the doorstep of Christianity.

We shouldn't be afraid of hymns. If some bother us, we would benefit from taking a moment for candid discussion of them after we sing them.

Okay, I a sentimentalist. I still love 'em.

Here's another way of examining these issues:

http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/2000/04/Singing-A-New-Song-Unto-The-Lord.aspx?p=1

Personally, I find OCS way too militaristic, having served in the military, but would love to explore other options such as the alternative lyrics in "Onward Christian People", as mentioned in one of the comments following the link in the OP. 

Exactly.. but don't tell that to the political Christians.