No prayer time? Is silence okay? Worship service?

Some people singing to be prayerful - can we include singing in the service?

In the context of the challenge the parametres are not debateable if silence and singing are prayerful then they are not permitted.

Singing is allowed, lead prayer and responsive prayers are not - make sense?

Hi Jobam,

Grace being my strongest theological suit I'll swing from there. 

I'll build the service around John 21:  15-17 with particular emphasis on how the language (obvious in the Greek) changes during the encounter and how Jesus uses that change not to restore Peter, but to protect him.

Gathering

(visually screens will start from a blank field in some colour.  A montage of images in monochromatic scheme related to initial blank field will display as music builds--images will depict gaciousness or gracefulness) 2 min.

Music leader will take us through some choruses varying in tempo all of which focus on grace.  Lyrics will be projected, any references to grace in the lyric will have that reference highlighted in some visible fashion.  5 min (7 min total time).

Purpose

Worship leader will take a moment to lay out for everyone what is coming with respect to theme.  (montage of images repeats on screens moving from monochomatic scheme to full colour).  Scripture foundation will be read as it is projected on screen.  5 min (12 min total time)

Singing continues.  Tempo slightly fast.  3 min (15 min total time).

Body

Foundational scripture repeated. 40 sec (15 min 40 sec total time).

John 21 is presented as a drama.  5 min (20 min 40 sec total time).

Foundational scripture is repeated.  40 sec (21 min 20 sec total time).

Talk 1--deals with the history of this text and how it has been traditionally used to present Jesus as giving Peter a second chance.  Emphasis on the three-peat denial on the night of Jesus' arrest and the pattern of three inherent in the exchange.  Challenge that tradition. 5 min (26 min 20 sec total time)

Foundational scripture is repeated.  40 sec (27 min total time)

Singing continues.  Tempo slightly fast.  3 min (30 min total time)

(During the singing ushers will distribute packages of Goldfish crackers and suitable alternatives for those on modified diets.  Participants will be encouraged to eat during the second talk.

Foundational scripture is repeated.  40 sec (30 min 40 sec total time).

Talk 2--sets the scene with an overview of God's providential care being the first experience of grace that we come into contact with.  Grace=Providence=Fish=cracker connection and shared meal is happening.  5 min (35 min 40 sec total time)

Foundational scripture is repeated.  40 sec (36 min 20 sec total time)

Singing continues.  Quick Tempo.  3 min (39 min 20 sec total time)

Foundational scripture is repeated.  40 sec (40 min total time).

Talk 3--Zeros in on the language used in the foundational scripture special attention is paid to the language Jesus uses to ask the question and the language Peter uses to answer and how they are not equivalent until Jesus changes the language he uses.  Point back to the three-peat denial and the fact Peter is about to repeat that failure until Jesus accommodates him where he is.  5 min (45 min total time)

Soloist:  Amazing Grace  Opening montage plays repeatedly on screen during the solo.  The lyrics should be introduced and explained so that folk unfamiliar with the hymn are able to hear what is being communicated rather than getting hung up on how dated the words are.  3min (48 min total time)

Drama:  An everyday example of grace.  5 min (53 min total time)

Purpose

The theological concept of grace is revisited, the contemporary application lifted up.  2 min (55 min total time)

Foundational scripture is read again in unison 40 sec (55 min total time)

Benediction is given and service ends with up tempo music.  More goldfish crackers are given to participants as they leave, perhaps a fridge magnet with a portion of the foundational scripture for the service is included.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi jobam,

Directionally yes.

Theologically no.

Grace and peace to you.

John

My worship service would begin with a greeter or two meeting people as they enter the building, directing them to wash their hands and go to the kitchen.  There they would be divided into groups of three or four and each group given counter space, a recipe, and ingredients for breadmaking.  (I have a recipe for making bread in an hour using fast rising yeast.)

As they work they are encouraged to contemplate the short Bible verse on their recipe comparing the kingdom of heaven to yeast kneeded into the bread.    A leader, or leaders, would circulate among the groups, answering questions, encouraging discussion. 

Once the bread (or more likely rolls) is in the oven, the entire group could move into the ajoining parlor and find a comfortable seat.  the worship leader would then tell a bible story (feeding the five thousand, or road to Emmaus, or breakfast with the post-easter Jesus) and invite conversation.   

Then a hymn or two.

Someone from the food bank or the church's outreach program would then speak briefly about feeding the hungry in our town and invite questions and conversation.  Pamphlets would be available. 

By then the smell of freshly baked bread should be drifting into the room.  One of the worship leaders, who has been keeping an eye on things, motions for several others to come and help.  

A serving cart with water, grape juice, and coffee is rolled into the parlor; followed by the helpers with baskets of rolls warm from the oven and each person is given a roll. 

The worship leader then draws people's attention, blesses and breaks a loaf, reminding the people of the times that Jesus was made known in the breaking of bread.  After a moment of silence, he lifts the bread to his mouth and whispers 'this do in remembrance'.  and everybody tears a piece from their roll and begins to eat.

Perhaps a rousing tune of  "Let Us Talents and Tongues Employ".

Then the group are invited to help themselves from the baskets of rolls, taking as many as they wish home for themselves or to share with neighbours or friends or someone in need.  Some will be left at the church for the outreach program.

Senses:  touch, taste, hearing

Take with them:   bread and fellowship

(This would probably work best in a small congregation of 50 or fewer, and I hope engage all ages from small children to seniors.)

Have been wondering why anyone would want to design a worship service without prayer. Even the Unitarian Universalists offer up their joys and concerns in lieu of "prayer". 

Just thought of this . . . A few years ago, I attended a secular funeral service. The presider called for a minute of silence before the end of the service and invited us to sit quietly and either pray or  think about the individual who had died. 

Hi paradox3

I'm not sure what the rationale behind the rubric is perhaps Jobam can explain for our benefit why prayer is prohibitted.

There are certain types of prayer which cause problems for some.  It would appear that the most difficult prayers for corporate worship are prayers of confession.  As good for our souls it might be I suspect it will never become popular.

Prayers of intecession also tend to cause problems because ultimately somebody, somewhere is going to take issue with what was prayed for and what wasn't.

Other prayers provide a frame of reference which force us to think of God in a specific way (not necessarily a limited way but definitely a specific way).

Oddly the more I look at the objections to prayer the more I see that the objections represent an anti-worship bias.  Curious.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Prayers of confession seem to be falling out of favour in many United Church congregations. For the life of me, I can't understand this. I have heard a few people say that prayers of confession seem like grovelling before God. I don't quite get this either. 

Hi paradox3,

Prayers of confession are acts of humility.  That alone should be sufficient to determine their popularity.

The second and just as obvious element is that prayers of confession are acts of repentance and the only people we require to repent are those whom have injured others in someway.  Therefore, offereing a prayer of confession means that one stands out as the authour of injustice or the perpetrator of violence.

And "good" people are never responsible for injustice or violence so in a crowd of good people like you would expect to find in a community of faith there is really no need for anybody to confess anything.

Particularly in a Church which happily remembers that Micah 6:  8 actually mentions justice alongside of some other meaningless drivel.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I certainly know that I would not attend a service with no prayer, a five minute sermon. Sound terrible. Like some sort of infomercial

I can understand that someone might not like to attend church. Or church offers a variety of alternatives with hi education and casual evening service.

But prayer is always a part of everything we do. W open meetings with prayer, close meetings with prayer and as part of the service it would be very odd for me to attend without prayer.

My service would involve choices and would be an intergenerational service. At the beginning of the service, everyone would be together in the sanctuary. The organist would lead us in a rendition of "Make Me a Channel of Your Peace" and there would be suitable images on the screen along with the lyrics. The worship leader would then read the parable of the Good Samaritan and then speak briefly about the story. At this point, people would be invited to choose between several options, all related to the theme of "Reaching Out" (reaching out is one of our congregations' core values).

1) I would invite the director of Our Place - a United Church mission site in Victoria which works with people who are often homeless and unemployed - to speak about their programs to those who choose to stay in the sanctuary.

2) A card making group - the cards would then be kept in the office and be given to people who are sick or grieving (not just members of the congregation, but anyone who the minister is aware of).

3) A baking group that would make healthy muffins that the director of Our Place could take to the people that he helps.

4) A discussion group that would watch a video, possibly produced by the Mission and Service Fund, and then talk about it.

After about 40 minutes, each group would then re-enter the sanctuary, bringing a symbol with them. Each group's leader  would then briefly describe what had happened in their time together and place the symbol on the communion table. Each member of the congregation would then be handed a pledge sheet to fill out and take home with them. The pledge sheet would read something like this: "I, (name of person), pledge to make a difference in the world this week by..." We would have a few moments of silence for people to reflect on this.

Our time together would end with the hymn, "Go Make a Difference."

Hi lastpointe,

Out of curiosity what did you think of the service outline I put together.  I thought my honouring of the prohibition of no more than 5 min constant verbiage was a good solution.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Wow, some of you are very creative……and lots of good points brought up.  Thank you.  If you can humor me for one more week in case someone else wants to take a stab at this……then we can have the discussion – seem fair?

John, you and I were posting at the same time, or I might have borrowed something from you.  I liked the fact that you would have taken a few minutes at the beginning to explain the service.   I think that my service could have benefitted from that too.  Maybe I should have people gather in the parlor (or if they are used to coming in the front doors to the sanctuary, they could gather there).  And a brief explanation, and perhaps a moment of silent reflection, before sending them off to wash their hands.

Somegal, I liked your ideas too.

I can imagine a church that chooses one Sunday a month as 'Alternate Worship Sunday'.   One month we would use John's service, one month - mine, and one month - yours.   Now we need some more ideas.

I wouldn't say that the joys and concerns are in lieu of prayer. In lieu of the congregational prayer or whatever it is called, but not in lieu of prayer in general per se. Some of us do, in fact, pray in our services. My fellowship prefers to have a time of contemplation or meditation in lieu of prayer though sometimes the accompanying reading does, in fact, slip into prayer territory. Some of us wish we did it more (like me).

I'm tempted to take on this challenge from a UU perspective because, to be honest, my services tend to be fairly conventional and most of you UCCan folks wouldn't feel too out of place in one save maybe for the lack of references to Jesus (and even that isn't a given with me). I have mixed things up a bit at times (having several people give readings and their reflections on the readings in place of a text and sermon) but still kept the basic Protestant structure pretty much intact. The closest thing I've done to what Jobam seeks is our small group format services but I didn't plan most of that. It was adapted from a UU book of small group services.

Alas, my life is such right now that I doubt I can do a proper job. Love seeler's, though. I'd go to that service.

Mendalla

In my last pastorate, we had what we called the "Fifth Wheel Sunday." So every time there were 5 Sundays in a month, the last Sunday was something "alternative" - generally the theme and format were decided by the laity. I was a resource, and led as much of the service as they desired. We had some interesting times.

My fellowship's current minister started off designating one Sunday a month for something alternative. That changed this church year as he focussed on doing each month as a particular theme so I'm not sure he's still following that. We do get some interesting alternative services from time to time regardless due to our tradition of lay involvement in worship.

Mendalla

Rev John,

I thought your service sounded but perhaps cheating a bit with several short talks.

I guess I am of the crowd that enjoys getting into the message being presented. My visits to churches has shown me that ministers who are good speakers are excellent at breaking up the talk. Scriptural explanations, numerous stories, current affairs examples, deep message....

I enjoy having the time to think and listen.

In a service of about 70 minutes, I generally find that about 18-20 is devoted to the actual sermon, occasionally longer. It seems sad that people think they are unable to sit and ponder for twenty minutes.

In our church the other time is taken up with hymns, anthems, solos, children's time, announcements, scriptures.

I like audio visual usage, currently we are struggling with that due to our design, but it is a good addition when used well.

I know that people don't always wish to spend a Sunday morning in church. Me too actually. Life is busier than it used to be, spare time is precious, children have activities on Sundays, and even if church is at 10 it really means that the entire morning is taken up. Rise, breakfast, dress, drive to church, attend, have coffee, leave home by close to 12. It is time consuming.

We now offer a weekly casual alternative. Time will tell if it catches on. It runs about 45 minutes, starts with tea, uses visual images, has casual music trio, is led by a lay person or one of the ministers.

The message in this experience is short and for me that is the one thing I find disappointing in it. But I don't think it reasonable to have the minister prepare two sermons a week, he is simply way to busy.

Time will tell but the guy in charge is working hard to encourage attendance and participation.

My service would be baking bread together. I estimate it would take around five hours. if you haven't got five hours for god and yourself now and again, your priorities probably need some adjustment.

SO:

Reading: "feed my sheep"… John 21 12-17

… a sharing of flour, yeast, salt, water — recognition of the earth, the rain, the sun, the grain, the things that grow, including the microbes that we don't see, like yeast, but that keep us healthy… we'd share conversation, stories and insights around the simple raw materials.

… to knead by… a recording of a big, sumptuous choral work then conversation about ALL the ways we work… the innerconnectedness of skills, chores and wjhat they achieve, from feeding us at a basic level, to ruination of the planet… work that pays well but destroys the MEANING of work, work that denies others a way of life, justice and work, with allusions to polinators, doing good all round, and predators, satiating when they have had enough. Thoughts about "our daily bread" that god provides, not through economic delivery channels, but by way of the pleasure of sustaing work that helps to create the daily feast.

… first rise: an hour of silent reflection and meditation: have you WATCHED bread rise. It's inspiring. It's like watching a wound heal but in fast motion, or a bloom open… this time would be about time and how we spend it. After an hour we would go for a half-hour walk: in the sun, in the rain, in the snow, in whatver.

… shaping the bread: this would be translating to "form" of our walk into the shape of our loaves: we would treat the shaping of our loaves as creative art with a reflection on form and shape, varieties of beauty and meaning,  and the living pliability of our dough which, at the same time, in the second rising will find its own shape from what we shape. A reflection will consider the ways god uses what we shape, the way we live among mis-shapen constructions and overbearing architecture. We will try to open new sensibilities and extend old ones. We will try to work"with" god and the "spirit" in turning our walk into an offering to sustain others.

… the second rise. During the second rise we will play "darts": we will make things fly, or try to. we will try to make all sorts of things "take off": gliding, propelled by balloons, baking soda… whatever we can think of trying or remember from childhood. We will laugh and allow ourselves and our senses to "fly". We get the nes in the church kitchen pre-heated and watch our loaves change shape as they grow.

… baking: tenderly we'll place each other's (not our own) bread in the oven and commit to taking care of it, so it bakes properly but does not burn.\

During to 20-35 minutes of baking, our reflect will be about harmonies — harmonies of energies, substances, human hearts and sharing. We will consider the responsibilities harmony requires of us.

Revelation… as the loaves are transferred to cooling racks, we'll  applaud each and a recording of some secular joy-filled music will be played. We will smell the sweetness and coninue our reflection on harmony. All the goodness in the loaves has come about through harmonies. 

The feast… to close, we will place the loaves on a table. One person will be blindfolded and walkd around the table a bit, then asked to touch one of the loaves.

The chosen loaf will then be broken and shared/consumed by us all.

Well will decide how to dispose opf the remaing the loaves, one at a time. Some may want to take a loa home to family, another may want to claim NO loaf so their's can be the one that nourished us all, Some may know a needy person who'd love a loaf. We would make a list, distribute the loaves and conclude with a silent prayer of thanks and gratitude.

Love that Mike.  Much better than my bread-making above.  I guess the restriction of 'not less than an hour' had me thinking of a time span of an hour plus and so I used fast-rising yeast.

I think one of the greatest obstacles tofaith for many many people is the misperceived "need" for haste, rush, instant results… 

I haven’t followed through on this – I apologize.  As I come to the realization myself as to why I started this thread, I will share with you. 

I came to the realization in 2013 that one of the major reasons that worship – in its current forms – doesn’t work for me, is it is at least 95 percent verbal.  I have decided and/or found out that I am basically not a verbal learner.  I learn by doing – playing piano etc is by repetition, visual etc.  Most biblical information is from musicals and or hymns etc.  As an educator friend of mine said, society rewards those who learn verbally – that’s the way most educational institutions work.

  Many younger people, of the so called digital age, who are using multi-media to learn and experience things would feel lost in our current worship formats as I sometimes do. 
 

t’s interesting – some congregations work hard on making sure people hear the service, and or have it signed, many have never taken on the challenge of those who learn differently.  I would assume this would be covered somewhere in the educational courses that our clergy folks have to take.  We don’t all fit into a box.

 A basic service format – for those using multimedia….Responsive readings are at least interactive.

Prayers can be a real issue – not all prayers in a service are responsive….thus prayers of confession, assurance/pardon etc can have people glazed over within minutes……

Scripture reading – make it visual as well as verbal – doesn’t matter if the translation is exactly the same – sometimes I find this more challenging.  Forces me to listen.   Either have bibles in the pews or up on the screen.  Most sermons can be 10 to 15 mins of my life that I will never get back. Saying that, its  as interactive as the person giving the sermon makes it......

In another thread someone suggested that worship is an offering - kind of hard to be a part of the offering if you are unintentionally excluded from worship.

I will post more as I reflect on your comments and my own sense of how I would see my worship service (experience) work for me.  Thank you again for your input.

In the suggestion above you have worked really hard at making it an experience.  Can you imagine trying to do that every Sunday - imagine how I feel going every Sunday.

No sermon. Walk to the park with your kids and play with them. If you don't have kids, borrow some.

Thanks chansesn....sounds good. 

That's interesting. I also learn less well from speaking, but I can remember a song forever.

In my early experiences in church the liturgy was sung; to this day, even though the service I (occasionally) attend with my mother is spoken I can participate as if I've been attending regularly.  The plainson even runs though my head as I recite the creed, for example.

Methodists didn't put their theology in a confession of faith, they sang (and sing) Charles Wesley's hymns.

Music seems to have been a key part of the Salvation Army from the beginning.

Singing seems to be a natural way to worship God, in whatever form people in the local place and time are able to express themselves.

Singing can draw me into worship, or turn me off. I say singing, because both the words and the music are important to me.

For the biblical literalists here, I should add that you have to ask permission before you borrow a child.

From their parents, not God.

Chansen: you are awesome :D  Have a great weekend!

Chansen...."For the biblical literalists here, I should add that you have to ask permission before you borrow a child."  All I can think of us that stupid IKEA commercial.....start the car....start the car...LOL

You're also thinking of Catholic priests.

I'm thinking of the time my son, then twelve, was taking some lessons in child development as part of a middle-school class.  Each student was to bring in a pre-school child for a half-day.  He went to his friend's mother and ask "Could I borrow Barbara for Thursday morning?"   Fortunately, she understood why he wanted to borrow her.