Rainbow Camp 2013 Camper Registration Form now online.

http://www.welcomefriend.ca/register/camp-registration

Great to hear that Rainbow Camp will have another season!  Congrats Jobam for the important work you are doing.

Why we need camp.....

As a parent how would you react if your child came out?

I remember the first time a friend came out to me as a lesbian (I had had several homosexual acquaintences before, but she was the first friend). I was young and had lots of wonderings about it. I remember saying to her that I had heard that being homosexual was a choice - and that I didn't believe the people who said that. I asked what her opinion of that was. She laughed and said something to the effect of "of course it's not a choice - who would choose something that would cause them to be bullied, ostracized and worse?" Her answer made a lot of sense to me.

I'd respond to both of those writers by giving them each a big hug. I'd then offer to help Eric, in whatever way I could, to set up that GSA in his school and I'd tell Joey that I hope his brother (and any other siblings) has come to at least the same level of acceptance as his parents.

Why?

Rich blessings.

Because some parents will kick them out for being gay.

Thanks for your reply somegal, but I doubt that that's true.

It doesn't sound like a very loving response for a parent to make.

I'm guessing that it's usually the youth who leave -- in order to go freely live their lifestyle.

Rich blessings.

Mc jae, really! You know better than that, you've come a long ways....don't let me down.

At the start of this thread you will see where the parents physically abused the child. I can tell you of similar stories from a couple of kids at Rainbow Camp.

You're right Jae - it's not a loving response for a parent to have. Unfortunately, however, many parents cannot handle having a child who is gay. This happened to a friend of mine - when he told his parents, he was immediately told he had to move out. I wish his story was abnormal, but I highly doubt it.

How utterly horrid. 

I do understand that some people would argue that keeping something (say marriage for example) away from people because of their sexual orientation is just another kind of abuse of them.

Rich blessings.

Sorry to hear that happened to your friend somegal. I hope that since that time he and his parents have been able to reconcile.

Rich blessings.

Sorry to hear that happened to your friend somegal. I hope that since that time he and his parents have been able to reconcile.

Rich blessings.

They have - sort of. They're still uncomfortable with his sexuality, but have allowed him back into their lives. Basically they all avoid talking about the elephant in the room whenever they are together and will likely never have a close relationship.

This I think is really quite sad somegal; parents and their children (adult or otherwise) should have a close relationship me thinks. I am glad that they have reconciled somewhat. I pray that the reconciliation may continue.

I've been blessed with a family who is quite close, even though we are geographically somewhat distant. We know that we love each other, and don't ever expect that change. I wish that everyone had that same kind of closeness.

Rich blessings.

Mc Jae ...... you continue to astound me on how dense you can be.......

I know I shouldn't be surprised ..... but there are times like this when I am....

Yes I know you think this is all a choice etc .... but your callousness really does get to me sometimes.....

.... and "Rich Blessings"???? ... no ..... not at all.....

Is this a "baptist" expression of love?  (I am referring to your post)

Rita

What I find interesting RitaTG. is that you have come into full awareness of where I stand on certain issues while i am not so sure myself. For that, I congratulate you. It must be quite a gift to be able to decide where people stand before they themselves have come to hard conclusions.

You and SG seem to live in a very black and white world where people are either for or against certain things. You seem to have no understanding that some of us are undecided, open-minded, and exploring certain issues. You want us all fixed in place, while some of us may be still pondering ideas and seeking answers. Perhaps it would serve you both to grant people more time, patience, and grace.

Some people like to test the water before jumping in for a swim. Is it a refreshing, life-giving spring, or is it a polluted cesspool? We seek to know before we make our splash. Timid? Perhaps. Wise? Perhaps.

As for "Rich blessings," it is a close which may be used by some other Baptists, I don't know. It's one that I learned from one of my professors, and it means just what it says -- may God's rich blessings be upon you. 'Nuff said.

MC Jae ... again you missed my point....

I will try once more.....

.....

you said...

I'm guessing that it's usually the youth who leave -- in order to go freely live their lifestyle.

......

That is what I am referring to as being callous.....

As for your "Rich Blessings" ..... maybe you can help me understand what you mean by that.   For me on the receiving end ..... what is the richness that you are extending ..... help me out here..... because what you posted before that makes it feel  hollow and insincere ... maybe explain what you mean by that phrase?

As for you being able to come to a "hard conclusion" ..... I have yet to see that.

This I will give you ..... you are amongst the least definate posters here....

You have avoided definate answers time and time again..... and so be it...

As for my black and white world ...... that is a rather curious observation.

....

I do have a challenge/request for you....

Since you say you are testing the waters .... then how about some questions from you about LGBT issues?????      If you really do want to explore .... ask.......

What gets under my skin (being honest here) is comments that are callous and ill informed (see your quote above).    In my transgender world I deal with the damage from comments like that all the time.    The suicide rate is something like 43% here in Ontario (according to TransPulse who gather statistics used by the government).   So for me this is very sensitive and no laughing matter.   I personally know a girl who was told not to come back to her church because she is transgender.   I know of another that was told not to show up at her church "dressed that way".   It hurts .... it hurts deeper than you can imagine.   It hurts so much when you are reaching out to God to be rejected and repulsed by one's own church.

That's my black and white world for you ...... am I welcome or am I not.....

You have told us you are studying to be a pastor.   Now how is a woman like me going to be treated in your church?   Are we worth the effort to learn about us and to wrestle with what to do with us?   Those are important questions because like it or not ...sooner or later ..... someone like me will be sitting in your pews.

Indifference hurts ........

Sincerely

Rita

My prayer for you Rita is the same as it is for everyone else... that you would be blessed with whatever God knows that you need to serve Him. Saying "Rich blessings" is also just a way through which I aim to say that I desire for you no ill will.

Thank you for your invitation Rita. If I think of any questions I would like to ask you I will do so then.

Interesting questions Rita. I will prayerfully consider them and make a decision at the time based on what I believe the Spirit of God teaches about such issues through the Holy Bible.

Rich blessings.

Hey folks - I need a hug.  things were going really well today, work was good, drove 50 miles to meet Rainbow Camp's Chaplin to do a video interview ....then drove 50 miles home in a snow/freezing rain storm - to sit down to relax and check my messages - to find this ...

Hello,

My Daughter attended Rainbow Camp last year ...  She was a subsidized camper as I am on a Disability pension...its very difficult to afford such educational and amazing times. ... common interests and a totally safe place to be who you are and she does not like labels and does not like the term bisexual but I do know she is bi-curiious. She has dated 2 girls in the last year and I am great with whatever she is. I as you may know am a lesbian woman. I have raised 2 boys. Lost my oldest 8 years ago to suicide and that was her Dad. I have raised her right from the day she was born. One thing I want to mention as well that she was raped last Aug. when she was still 14. She was admitted to hosp. for 2 weeks after due to the trauma. She has been going through a living hell. Since Hosp. she has a lot of workers helping us out as well we still have to deal with the upcloming trial ....

I have a full weekend of stuff to do - but I tell you, being able to offer her child, a safe space, even if it is just 5 days makes it all worth while... I have to say, for me, it puts things in perspective as to what I think are major issues in my life&nbsp whic;do not compare to what this 14 year old is going through... 

For Jobam, the letter writer and her daughter - and for anyone else who needs a hug this evening:

Jobam, you are doing amazing work at that camp.

It's easy to see your love and concern for the letter writer and her daughter Jobam. I pray that God will richly bless each and every one of you.

Peace in Christ.

Jobam .... gentle hugs for you and her and her family.....

Rita

MCjae,

I do understand people struggling/wrestling... whether it is from a societal place, a way they were raised, a religious place.....

In fact, I understand that those very people may be LGBTQ peoples.

So, no, I do not have black and white thinking.

"You are with us or againsts us" is Dubya, not me. LGBTQ people wrestle and struggle....

What I take issue with is not your stance.

I take issue with you misrepresenting.
I have said I do not see you as ever having been supportive or open.

If you are, then be open enough to know that you should not likely work through your own issues hurting the people you profess to be open to.

There have been times, when those I love deeply needed time and space to work through their beliefs, thoughts, feelings.... I get that.

There has been, for almost all people, a process. They like to act like they were cool all the time. They, most often, weren't. It is a process for most people, even when they are the gay one.

I simply do not think it is wise or kind for a racist to be trying to "work through it", "get over it", "decide, "grow" or "figure out how they feel" ....  by continually sharing with people of colour what they know will be- and is-  painful for them to hear.

They can sit alone with their thoughts, pray, read voraciously, talk to plenty of people...

They do not need to further abuse people to get there.

How would it feel for you and your wife to have to listen to people discuss whether inter-racial marriage is a sin, whether you deserve to be married, whether you can parent...?

Work it out, Jae.

I am simply tired of wearing your footprints on my back. I am not willing to be your stepping stone.

Get where you need to be without walking on the people you profess to care about to get there.

That is pretty plain and simple.

If you do not get that,  it is not likely because you are dumb or obtuse.

Jobam,

Is there confidentiality regarding campers? Their families?

Are these letters posted by the authors to a public website?

I am struggling with how much personal information is posted and shared here that is meant for another audience or in private letters or emails.... until I know the auithors consent.

Well that's good to hear.

Even if I was supportive I could not state as such.

As much as I get what you're saying, I reject the idea that being opposed to homosexual behavior is akin to being racist. The former means that one is against what certain people choose to do. The latter means that one is against who certain people are. There is in my estimation a marked difference between those two things.

Understood.

Thank you for the compliment and rich blessings.

SG ... not worth the effort.....

Hugs

Rita

Yes, I agree Rita, it's not worth the effort.

I know where I stand, I'm pretty sure everyone else does too, I'm not going to change, and I've decided to no longer discuss it on wondercafe.

Rich blessings.

Mc Jae ... and I will continue to oppose your viewpoints.

At least I am free to express my true viewpoints where as you have said ... you are not.

Given that you are studying to be a baptist pastor I will consider your viewpoints rather typical of your denomination.   

Rita

That will be interesting to watch Rita, as I have said all that I am going to say. My time is limited. Why be here on wondercafe in dispute with people? I'd rather have fun on the site and participate as I feel led by the Spirit of God in a peaceful and relaxed way.

That's not quite what I've said Rita. Please re-read my words with the care and wisdom that I know you to have.

A conservative Baptist pastor to be exact. Not all Baptists are conservatives. There are a zillion different Baptist denominations -- some of them rather liberal.

Rich blessings as always.

MC Jae ....... my words stand ... as do yours...

Now in keeping with this thread ..... we need camps like this to mitigate the damage done by viewpoints like yours.... and denominations like yours.....

Regards

Rita

RitaTG, I would appreciate it if you kept me out of the conversation thanks.

Rich blessings.

When you comment on LGBT issues then of course I will participate in the conversation MC Jae....

Its like this ........ I deal with persons and young people that are hurt by the sorts of positions taken by people like you.    I know how it feels personally....    I will stand up and challenge those positions and hopefully save some poor soul that is told how wrong it is and how it is "a choice".    Know this .... lives hang in the balance...

Fact .... Ontario ..... suicide ideation rate amongst transgender persons runs at 43%

(from TransPulse survey)

For you it may be an opinion ... for us its is much more than that.

If you feel offended ..... oh well .... sorry about that.... I have rather more sensitive hearts that need to hear love.    That is what the camp is all about.

If you don't want me to comment .... it's easy ... if you have nothing positive to say .... say nothing. 

Again .... I endorse and defend your right to give your viewpoint .... and I maintain my right to challenge it.

Respectfully and Sincerely

Rita

Amen Rita!

Rita, you won't win over the Jae's of this world. But you have done better - you've won over the generation after the Jae's of this world. Because of people like you who have been open and honest, almost every young person has a GLBT friend, and I really believe that's been the difference. You're asking Jae to choose between standing up for the faith he has spent his life refining, or people he has been informed about largely through his faith leaders. You won't win many of those battles. The generation after Jae is choosing between their faith (if they have one any more), and their GLBT friends. Again, no contest, but different outcome.

Jae's side of the political debate is screwed, and more and more of them know it. You can't obsess over the fact that you haven't won over everyone. What has been achieved by the gay community over the last twenty years or so is incredible. Yeah, there's a ways to go, but we're long past the tipping point. This has been our generation's human rights achievement.

RitaTG, I didn't say you couldn't participate. I'm asking you to please not involve me in the conversation on such matters here at wondercafe.

Rich blessings.

Hi MC jae,

RitaTG did not pull you into the thread against your will did she?

You voluntarily joined the thread by asking the question, "Why?" didn't you?

Where the conversation goes from there is where it goes, and as you have seen fit to share your point of view others have seen fit to challenge and critique it.  That is how conversation works.  If you don't want to be involved in such matters here at WonderCafe.ca exercise some self-discipline and stay out of such conversations.

Grace and peace to you.

John

rich blessings.

Doesn't work that way. You opened the door. You don't get to hide from your own expressed opinions.

Mc Jae ...... just like everyone else here .... when you express an opinion or pose a question then it is open to discuss.

If you think you can say your piece and then when you have had enough that we now have to avoid addressing what you have brought up then you are going to be very disappointed.    We all have our history here and positions that we have already expressed will also become part of a current conversation when relevant.

If you don't want uncomfortable feedback then I would suggest that you be careful what you put forth.   Of course that is totally up to you .... I for one plan to respond as I feel is appropriate.

Once again ... to be clear ...... I have no intentions nor delusions about being able to influence your opinions.    I fully realize that your mind is closed (my opinion).

I respond to some of your posts because they need to be challenged .... for the benefit of others that read these threads..... because you are dead wrong.  There are hearts that read these threads that need to know that God loves them and they are wonderfully created just as they are.

Regards

Rita

Hi MC jae,

As far as requests go there is a fairness to it.

None of us should be willing to put words into your mouth, whether we believe they are accurate or not.  That, in and of itself is an injustice.

The fact remains, you opened the door walked in and said, "this is what I believe."  Once you open the door and take a stand on something that is you voluntarily taking the spotlight and you don't reserve the right to shut that light off no matter how uncomfortable that light gets.

That is an unreasonable request in a thread which you volunteered to participate in.

That may or may not be an unreasonable request in a thread where you shared your opinion.  It is reasonable if the allusion is unfair.  It is unreasonable if the allusion is fair.

This is also an unreasonable request.  Again, you volunteered to participate and you volunteered your opinon.  That is you saying, "Here I Am."  

If you only want to be considered ornamentation, something to be seen without being examined to closely, then keep your opinions to yourself.  If you want to be considered functional then you need to be prepared to have your opinion tested.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I have tried to use self discipline and have stayed away from Jae's posts for the last couple of weeks. 

Again it is all about Jae. What his problem is, we probably, will never know. 

He is rude to Rita and to the rest of the community and then he has the nerve to say "Don't talk to me, ", "don't mention my name", "don't include me". Sorry, Jae , it is the other way about. You are including yourself and causing hurt as you go.

You want to be a pastor. Take some lessons in pastoral care. You need them. 

No need to answer me. I am just blowing off steam. I will find my pastoral care from someone more caring. 

So, basically Jae, you're saying that when you post in a thread like this one, we should ignore you?

Why not? Most of the rest of society does.

Right, i understand what you're all saying. Please feel free to post whatever you want (so long as it'sin keeping with the guidelines of the forums). All i mean to say, really, is that i have no real intention of discussing controversial social issues any more here at wondercafe. I will discuss social stuff, dialogue with people about theology, talk about church life, and more... But as - said - plan to steer clear of hot social topics.

rich blessings.

Which you can do, whenever you decide to stop posting in threads about contentious social topics. So far, you've managed to go about one hour.

And hey, say "Hello" from me to whoever the hell gets in your head and turns you back into Jae every few months.

Chansen, the Devil makes him do it.

Wow, I go away for a couple of days and all this discussion.... 

Anyway, as to SG's comment about  confidentiality – I would never share anything that could identify the parent/child etc.  Any mention of a name - first letter - came from a public post on facebook.  The name is not real.  I do not mention real names, ages, where they live etc unless given permission - usually for publicty (postive) items.  …..if you feel that I have overstepped please let me know.

Thanks folks.

Jobam,

My main concern is that with small groups, identification is not nearly as complicated. All one would have to do is say I am from ___ area and TG or FtM and people would know who you meant.  It can be fairly easy in a small group especially when providing age and gender. In my church if I said a 57 year old woman was raped, people would know who that was.
 

I understand the camp draws from a wide area, but unless I am mistaken the numbers are not huge.

If those children enjoyed themselves, felt empowered... they may have said they attended.

There is a LOT of identifying info there...

Youth who have had confidences violated, being outed, etc... (even by family) need to know their confidences are safe. This camp is supposed to be that safe place.

A parent posting that their teen was raped on Facebook is a decision I would not throw my support behind, but they are the parent. Someone following that parent's lead and sharing it because the parent first "made it public", well, it is not something I would throw my support behind. I did not see it on the Facebook page, but I am not a fan of sharing that a youth was raped without HER express permission (including moving that info to another site) 

So, yes, based on confidentiality being violated when you are a LGBTQ youth, I do feel there has been a tad too much sharing done, by the camp.