His posture is certainly a useful one for him in dealing with native peoples. I doubt, though, that it's a motive for him. there is no significant movement in Canada to do anything for native peoples. Israel has a superbly financed Israeli lobby in Canada and the US. Native people have inferior health, dreadful alcoholism, shorter lives, less education, high rates of imprisonment, and very little money.

Nah. Harper doesn't even have to think about them. And he doesn't.

JimKenney:  i brought up the issues around First Nations on a thread that I started, and through another lens.

What we have to ask is:

through a religious lens, how do we repair damage done over decades (maybe centuries) to our indigenous brethren?

Is it more important to be involved in global affairs, or to work at home, even if it is painful?

The UCCan has chosen to be involved in the affairs of Israel.... what is the UCCan doing domestically, to repair and aid in healing centuries of First Nations trauma.

I am bumping up this thread  in order for others to reflect on the situation

The native peoples issue cannot be repaired. There is no possibility we will all move out, and leave this land to to them. And if we did, there is not possiblity they could go back and live as they did before. That world is gone. We couldn't bring it back if we wanted to. Some native leaders want to return to the old culture. they can't. That culture was shaped for survival in a world that no longer exists.

We and native peoples have to invent a whole new society - and I have no easy answers for that.

No such problem exists in Israel/Palestine. what's there is the relatively simple problem of separating the two into countries in which they feel reasonably secure, and in a situation in which neither can impose its will on the other.

In terms of First Nations, the United Church has already paid out over $5,000,000 in settlement of the residential school issue, and may be paying out close to another 1/2 million dollars.  We have established an Aboriginal Ministries Council, supported Living Into Right Relationships and Returning to Spirit initiatives, and have numerous other healing oriented projects underway.  We have supported the Healing Fund for close to 20 years, and are involved in other activities as well as continuing to provide support to Aboriginal congregations across the country.

What we are doing here is far more than our involvement in working for peace in Israel and Palestine where we have been part of a multi-faith, multi-national partnership for at least a decade.  The decision to ask members to prayerfully consider whether or not they are prepared to purchase items made by settlements in the occupied territories was based on a large amount of experience and information, probably far more than was accessed by those criticizing our decision, and even then the decision was made with great difficulty out of our love and concern for members of the Jewish community.  Our decision was supported by independent Jewish people who put peace and justice ahead of the empire building that is now happening in Israel.

And that, I think, is most reasonable, and probably all that is within the capacity of the church to do.

The problems of native peoples are far beyond any quick fix. We have over past centuries, destroyed a whole world. It cannot be put together again. It's gone forever - and it's hell for a society to deal with to scale of change that means.  This has been a long process - and it has a long way to go.

The title of your post seems to suggest that Harper is offering his uncondiitonal support of First Nation Land Claims. Jim, how did you arrive at that conclusiion? Maybe I am reading your post wrong but I don't see how Israel and First Nation Land Claims are similiar in Harper's mind. Can you elaborate a little more on what you are trying to infer.

OK I just reread your post I now see where you say is it possible and I say it is possible. Can you post material that states Harper has taken proactive steps in dealing with First Nation Land Claims?

Jim's post explaining what the UCCan has done for First Nations issues, and the Israel Palestine issue is better than anything I can offer. Have we done enoug for FN people? Maybe not. What is enough? I heard Justice Murray Sinclair speak two years ago. He asked what reconcilation would mean. Of course, no one had the answers. Never-the-less, it is a goal we must have. I think the UCCan is making some good steps in this direction, and that it is a journey that will be ongoing. 

Last Sunday I had the opportunity to listen to someone talk about her visit to Israel/Palestine on a study tour. She spoke of the settlements, and showed us photos. We saw pictures of the schools and homes in the Jewish settlements, and schools and homes in the Palestinian areas. I encourage people to learn more about the issue. It will be pretty clear why the GC41 commissioners voted as they did. The Jewish settlements are creating conditions not unlike apartheid and the reserve system in Canada. 

This is very difficult for many to comprehend: South African delegates/officials/politicians visited Canada in order to study how "we" as colonists dealt with the"Native problem" studied the reservation system and accompanying government policies, in order to develop Apartheid.

Colonist Canadians until after WWII were also anti-Jewish, which included blatant signage in hotels and beaches that read "no Jews allowed", just as examples in Toront, and across the country. 

Post WWII, Canada started to enjoy a reputation as peacekeepers,and this seemed to cleanse the collective memory of this very young country.  Truthful colonialist Canadian history is still not taught in public school; it is re-visionist history tha is perpetuated, and it is a great disservice to our children and to those whom we oppressed.  Until truth is told, no one wins - and this is part of the problem we must face domestically before we interfere in the affairs of others. 

The actual financial cost of interfering in foreign affairs is better spent at home, where there is still great work to be done.  There is no excuse for First Nations people to continually live on reserves without proper infrastructure; governmental red tape forces First Nations people to stay in inadequate conditions in order to have status; it is a catch 22 situation and it is crap.

I agree with you Redhead. Are you suggesting that being opposed to the Jewish settlements, and the maltreatment of Palestinians in the area is wrong? Have you become informed about the settlements and the issue? 

Northwind, I am very informed of the situation in Israel, and I have posted about this situation often here on WC.

I am suggesting that we, as Canadians, should work toward correcting what is still incredibly flawed here before we tnercede/interject our presence abroad.

Should read : intercede/interject....

if we do nothing overseas until we do something here, then it is unlikely we shall ever do anything anywhere. Besides, what happens in coming weeks in the Middle East is important, maybe deadly important, to us.

I have never bought the argument that if we are fixing something, we should stop and fix something else. The important thing is to be doing something, somewhere.

Nor did Canada just discriminate against Jews. Discrimination against Blacks was as bad as it was in the US well into the 1960s and later. Japanese Canadians can tell  you something about discrimination - as can Ukrainians and Italians, and East Europeans and Chinese. All in Canada.

The English in Quebec are now being as savagely discriminated against as any others have been. I too well remember going through that, and hearing not a word of sympathy or help from Canada.

Aparheid, which we have, is not a solution for native peoples. But we cannot solve it simply by taking back the little we allowed them to keep. Nor can we help them with fairyland ideas of restoring their old cultures. They have to be helped to adapt to North america as it is. You cannot survive witha culture that is not suited to the environment you must live in.

This is the work of generations.

I understand the idea that it is wrong to tell Israel what to do, when we have our own sins to deal with. Kinda of like the community leader that tells other what they should do, while in his own home, he neglects or abuses his family.

Howevr that leaves the question, at what point is a person /country/ organisation/church have to be before they can involve themselves with the community,/other country.

FOr example, my local congregation like others, has to deal with accessibilty issues which prevents others from joing, or reduces the ability of membrs to particpate. In all fairness, my congregation has perhaps made signifacnt changes in the last years to do so, but it is a job that will nevr be complete, becasue of the various types of barriers, to people with different kinds of adilities/disabilities.

So if I follow your logic and apply it locally  to other churches, and groups,

Does that mean I could never point out to other congregations in Ottawa, that there policies that discriminate against LGBT people,?(ie refusing to marry them) and  that I should not tell others in the community that they should not attend these churches, or groups?  And if they do attend, that unless they support the change I and others want in thier church (an end to discrimination against LGBT people) I will consider wrong/bad, and speak out in the  community forms, and the community ways I have available to me about how they are responsible and need to change. Until my church is fully accessible, and has removed all barriers to the disabled or differently abled?

Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

Alex, everyone is entitled to an opinion. 

That is not the issue here.  Action has been taken.  And money has been dedicated to that action.  And it involves a foreign country, where the same issues have NOT been reconciled in our own country.

This is not about entitlement to an opinion; this is about whether or not Canadians are goign to be honest about our history and our ongoing issues around reparations and rights of First Nations peoples. 

I believe that the UCCan has put money toward finding solutions to the colonial actions of the past that are arguably continuing in some spots. These problems will not be solved overnight. If we wait until we have solved our own problems before we look outside our borders and challenge other oppressions, then we will never speak out. 

I believe we as indiduals and as the church need to speak out against oppressions when we see them. Oppression is happening because of the Jewish settlements. We need to speak out about it, and open the discussion. That is what the church is recommending. My bigger concern is why one country over another. We need to speak out, especially when our government seems to be supporting the oppressor.

Some people said we needed to stay out of the South Africa issues. Look what happened there....things changed. 

I have agreed with the right to speak out. 

I suggest that there is much more we can and should do domestically before actively engaging in foreign affairs. 

Using South Africa as an example is not very good, given the fact that South African officials looked to how Canadians established reserves and governance as a way to deal with the "Native problem".

And there is far more that we as Canadians can and should do domestically to address First Nations rights and political issues; it is simply uncomfortable to admit that as colonists we were and still are oppressors.  We may all self identify as Canadians, but in no way is the playing field level.

So, what would you suggest we do?

What about the UCCan concentrating on lobbying for bettering  infrastructure and living conditions on reserves here, for First Nations people, as a start

Not to mention considering what money (currently) spent by UCCan regarding the Israel boycott could do for bettering living conditions on reserves here...

For many Canadians, our country is paradise. However paradise was built by creating Hell for first people,. Taking away their land, culture, religion, and there children. And you are right we are still making it hell for survivoors from First Nations. If Canadians actually cared I believe that we can not fix what was destroyed in the process of creating Canada but we could change things for the better, if most Canadians demanded it be a priority. Even simple things like providing their schools with the same (which is still not nearly enough) funding that schools in the rest of Canada recieve. Than their the racism, in our laws, and racism in the application of laws, on people many of whom belong to nations who have not  given up their sourviegn rights, and for which we deny them through fraud and lies.

Howevr it is still good to involve ourselves with our neighbours. Howevr it helps to see ourselves in the eys of others, and South Africa for example helped us understand how racism and colonism was similar and it repulsed a few Candian, and so at least First Nations have a few more allies.

Likewise I believ our actions in other coutries help us better understand ourselves and it can affect how they see themselves, when they look through our eyes.

I  believe that Israelis and the Jewish comunity and the Arabs have been set up by the actions of European nations and North America, in order to keep them fighting so they do not notice that it is White Christian Europeans, and their descendants who are the only ones really benfiting from this conflict, through the exploitation of natural resources and their lands and seas. 

White North Americans and Europeans really do not care and for some they only use the Middle East so that Jews and Muslims will remain in conflict and some hope to see many Jews and Muslims killed, and continue the work of the Europeans in killing Jews from 60 some years ago.

However at least by having a group listen to the people from that area, and listening and addressing their concerns we are actually caring.  I just wish the people in the church and others would point out how we benfit and fuel the conflict, safe in our homes in NOrth America and Europe, runing our economy on their oil. No one ever points out that while Israel recieves the largest ammount of foreign aid (money to support their military)  from the US, the Arab countries that Israel is preparing to defend against or wage war on, recieves a combined total of 5 times as much military aid that Israel does.

Thus in my opion because the west benfits from the conflict, and fuels it, thos in the west who want peace, and change must also be involved. I just wish that in doing so, we would point out to Candians and others from the "west" how much we are responsible for creating the conditions and exploiting them for our benfit.  But just as our goverments do not really care about First Nations, they also do not really care about the Israelis, or the Arabs.  And that is because Candians, like our European and American cousins do not really care either. Ifd they did, we would be doing something different.

So that leaves groups like Churches and others who are not just focused (or at least have some membrs who are)  on material gains, and power, and believ that caring and doing the right things to promote peace and equalty to get ninvolved. Now it can be claimed what the UCC did, was right or wrong, but at least it was something other than "prayers" 

Also in my local church we nevr talk about the Middle East. We are very involved in the South Sudan. We have long sponsored refuggess, and invited speakers from there to speak at our church on Sundays, as well as at public events during the week. Our minister actually attended a peace conference in the South Sudan a year or so ago. He was sent by and represented the UCC at the peace conference because of the UCC's history and involvment is supporting peace in the greater Sudan.

So the UCC in my cornor of the world seems to be very involved elsewhere. (I suspect it is just becasue the corporatations and the press that they own are not interested, is the reason you have not heard about it.    We have also done some work, around first nations issue and the Reconcialtion process. Speakers, film nights, disscusions. fundraising events are held as part of a monthly pot luck where we invite the community to address concerns around social justice and peace.

Thank you Alex.  You have made some insightful comments

interesting that there are no other comments

I am finding this an interesting discussion. I am not in a position for further comment because I am  not an authority on the situation.

ok. We shouldn't help in the middle east. We should start in Canada.

we should not help to feed the hungry in Africa until all the hungry in Canada are fed.

we should not send medical help to Haiti until all Canadians are healthy.

We should not help northern Canadian until all southern Canadians have been helped.

We should not care for anybody at all until all United Church members have been cared for.

The reality is that none of these problems will ever be fully solved. They have not been solved in thousands of years. I see no reason to believe they will be solved in the next few weeks. Nor will dropping all the others to concentrate on one be of any help. Even apartheid in Africa has not been solved. It has simply given way to a new social division based on access to wealth. 

I see no reason why we should feel guilty about helping others = and certainly not on the argument that somebody else, too, needs help.

Dreamerman, I believe Harper wants to do as little as possible to help First Nations people.  The point I was trying to make is that by supporting the oppressor in the West Bank, Harper is validating the oppression that happened to First Nations people in Canada. If it is okay for Israel to ethnically cleanse the West Bank, the treatment in Canada of First Nations people in the past is legitimized.  If he challenges the Israeli government actions in the West Bank, he would be supporting the case for the need for Canada to do more for First Nations people.

That is an interesting point of view, Jim

To expand on this idea, can one extrapolate and quesiton what it is that Canadians do to work toward repairing damage done historically, AND currently regarding our part in overpowering and controlling First Nations peoples?

To be clear, I have never argued that it has to be an either/or argument.

Rather, I have suggested that we as Canadians look at our own situation in addition to our work abroad.  And I will say this for the record, I am not at all certain we have done such great work at home. 

So how is it that we can be great emancipators abroad, while not reconciling our own domestic issues?

I wish I could believe we have been great emancipator's abroad, but I don't  Our projects abroad have been a similar mix to our projects domestically for similar reasons: arrogance, ignorance, conflicts between compassionate and looking for economic returns, and being careful about challenging our "allies" including the US and Britain.  Our military leadership in Afghanistan would have operated differently if it had not been for the US dominance in decision-making there.  There is a reason more Canadian and American soldiers die by suicide than by enemy action because of that war. 

One example is the High Aswan Dam on the Nile River.  At the time it was being planned a Classics instructor who was also an engineer predicted that reservoir would fill very quickly with silt, reducing its value, and the associated irrigation system would be a haven for a snail that carried a parasite.  He said the dam was a poor decision, and history has proven him right.  Loans from Canada and elsewhere paid for that dam to the fanfare of how wonderful we were, and Egypt was stuck with a debt for a project that has been of little benefit to the country, similar to other African projects that did not fit their situation.  It was very profitable for the Canadian and other engineering and construction companies that were involved in building the dam, but not for the Egyptian people.

I don't know of any great nations who are emancipators of this world. But that doesn't constitute a reason for not doing anything about anything.

One also to be careful of the word 'we'. Canada has not done a wonderful job. Some Canadians, though, have. I would rather be one of the Canadians who has been of some help anywhere in the world that one of 'we' who haven't done mucn.

Most overseas government projects are boondoggles for private business friends of the government. That's why so few Haitians have seen any of the benefits they should have from the money that was supposedly donated to them.

Harper's attitude  toward our Aboriginal friends here at home is really  patronizing..keeping the way things are now..the same.  Patronizing is not progress, or unconditional respect in the first place.  Israel is a master at making sure talks don't happen because they want to keep doing the bad stuff they are doing.

Keeping quiet on abusive powers means those are quiet aim to do, or continue the same thing at home.  That's why Rissia and China will not agree to do anything to help countries being slaughtered by their heads of government.  Compliance with abusers is  dangerous..and that kind of power is also addicting.

Strangely different in that Israel fights, whereas  First Nations here have protested peacefully.  Money being paid will help some, but not those whose hearts are broken and pierced emotionally.

The Apology given by the United Church bears living out, as much as any Apology given by the government. The UCC is trying to do that.   But has the government changed anything?   It seems not to have done anything really helpful.  Treaties are two-sided...and we as Canadian are Treaty People..along with the Natvies signing them.

Israel and Harper's actions..if they are to be seen as honest at all  should not be tied to Canadians of long standing... the Aboriginal Peoples.  His dice will fall off the table someday.  Playing games here with policies abroad is sneaky and cuts down policies we need here at home.  He needs to speaking against Israel's actions.

Canada of all Nations should be the leaders in ending this way of dealing...but it is hard when he won't do it here..that would be two-faced..and doing nothing is not an option for peace anywhere in the world.

What is Harper afraid of...who is silencing him?  I am not saying go fight...I am saying Canada was once a Nation for peacemaking, and had respect for that, trust has eroded, and now we have a government who watches genocide....what we do comes back...what we refuse to do...comes back as well.

History has taught us very little, it seems.

The one thing history does teach is the way people behave in various situations. Unfortunately, history is rarely taught to get that message through.