That's the thing, isn't it? They scream about how the whatever-it-is amendment allows them to have guns so they can protect themselves and yet it's still always the police who end up doing the protecting. I can't think of a single mass shooting in the US that ended with an armed civilian taking out the attacker.

On the broader issue, though, I'm staunchly pro-gun control. Those who need them for subsistence hunting, getting coyotes off their farms, and so on should be able to have them. I'm not opposed to the existence of firearms per se. However, there's no way one can argue that military grade hardware or handguns are needed for either of these. The self-defence argument just doesn't hold water because I rarely, if ever, hear of people actually protecting themselves with their guns and, frankly, we don't want people doing it themselves. Too much risk of misuse or accidents.

Mendalla

Too soon. Let's find out what happened first.

From my Facebook page----

For me, today- as much as I champion gun control- today, is not a day for creating divisions. Enough division for one day. People have been permanently divided from their loved ones. They may have stood on either side of what is "an issue". Those folks have enough "what ifs" and woulda, shoulda, coulda's to last an entire lifetime. They do not need fingers pointing at them, blaming them... They do not need more added to what they bear.

For me, today is not a day to not talk about politics or offer up lame theological stuff....

Today is a day to weep.

 

Exactly. Plenty of time for rage and debate on another day.

Of course, there may be a shooting on that day, too.

Not to put too fine a point on it but someone who wants to use a gun to commit a crime will always find a way to get ahold of one regardless of the restrictions you put on the average citizen owning firearms.  Gun control is not the issue, or the cure. Identifying the individuals who are apt to commit this sort of crime and intervening before they go off the rails is.

To use a quote the source of which I can't recall  right now: "Guns do not kill people. People kill people"

One creationist on Twitter has already found a different reason:

Are you happy now that the shooter grew up in a school without God? #thinkAboutit

— Eric Hovind (@erichovind) December 14, 2012

Sorry for breaking my own suggestion from above, but this was just too stupid to ignore.

We also need to talk about the general rot of a society (like ours) that worships violence. Check out your local movie theatre. Above government that encourage the unreasoning fear and hatred, as many government do to get their legislation through. The whole of the US is in hysteria over fear of attacks (while it is busy attacking everybody else.)  I find it stunning that our news media pay so little attention to the PQ's exploitation of fear and bigotry. That just begs for violence.

I hope we  and the Americans can put  our anger in the right place. Rip up the ammendment or maybe the whole constitution and start over.

For me, this is not about putting off....

This is about letting it sink in, letting it be real....

Not a CNN story, not reality TV, not a video game....
 

Let our heartbreak be more than a newsclip or a blip long, before we move onto something else in the news or another emotion.

To let our heart break, our stomach churn....
 

To not say, "we got this", because we don't.

To not reassure society that they are safe or that we can protect them, we can't.

To not say, "we can prevent this" or "we can legislate this". We apparently can't or won't.

To not offer nonsense like "we are resilient". We should not be able to withstand this shit and return to the way we were. We should not be able to recover quickly from this.

To not point below a border and pretend our children are safe. They are not.

To not think gun control will "fix" it. To not think more gins will "fix" it.

To not think one party or another can save us from ourselves.

To not think "we got this". We don't have this!

To not say, "It's not that bad. They will be fine, they wouldn't hurt anyone..."

To not be angry to avoid or instead of feeling hurt, sad, disgusted....

To not be focused on one thing or another in order not to cry, not to be sickened, not to be human.
 

Today is a day to let it break us, let it gut us....Let it change us.... let it make us change - change our laws, our stigmas, our culture, change ourselves.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/fuck-everything-nation-reports,30743/

that article pretty much sums up what i feel about this.

Hi SG,

Amen and amen.

Grace and peace to you.

John

The biggest single problem here is a propaganda that has sunk deep into perceptions of what it means to be an American.

The millions of Americans who want assault weapons of high firepower and large magazine capacity are people who expect to use them - not against criminals. In fact, it's surely notable how few killings in self-defence ever occur in the US. They want those guns because they believe the only defence against abusive government is rebellion. They want the type of weapons they do because they intend to use them against American police and military.

They are steeped in a history that sees almost all useful change as rooted in violence. You will note that their reference to the constitution is based on precisely such a few of what is important in a free society.

My guess is that Obama will do nothing.

Though he must wonder when he will be in the sights.

omg, another one...

am i in a Paul Verhoeven movie?

(one more week of comfortable bilateral symmetry left...)

also, AMEN & AWOMAN, SG!

Sure, Rowan.  Easy access to handguns isn't a part of the problem at all.

WEll said

The 20 year-old killer used two hand guns: a Glock and a Sig Sauer. They were found inside the school. He'd left  a .223-calibre rifle in the back of his car.

There's no way of avoiding the implications of that. Guns actually do KILL people… they are a wepon of choice for mass killers. I don't know of any mass killer in recent times who used, say, a kitchen knife instead of a gun, or a bludgeon, or bare hands. Guns kill because they make it far too easy.

Not for lack of trying though:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-school....

*sigh*

I just wanted to cry when I heard the news and I feel like crying again now that I hear they're talking about arming the teachers with guns in the US.

This is too sad - so much innocence lost. 

and so the killer has a history of mental health problems. His slightly older brother-whose name was first relaesed as the killer-says he hadn't had contact for years

so I wonder what care this young man was getting? Were the appropriate drugs and treatment available for him?  In a country without universal health care I wonder-It's hard enough to get good care here!

And so I feel for the brother  and for the school children

and for the father-tho I haven't heard of him yet-and for the sisters and brothers and extended families of those shot, killed or just traumatized.....

I suspect a wide range of changes would be useful:

good effective mental health treatment,

less accessible guns

......

Although - as hideous as that incident was - it DOES highlight a difference. No one in the China attack died. Without guns, mass killing is very hard.

And Rowan, your position just isn't sustainable when confronted by the evidence. Lack of gun control leads to far more gun crimes. I quite agree that identifying those who would commit such crimes is important, but gun control - while not a cure - is proved by the evidence and statistics to be a very effective control on such things.

Aside from the availability of mental health care, one is always free to accept or reject such care unless you are proved to be a danger to yourself or the community. It's a very complex issue without simple solutions like "better care" or "locking up guns".

Along with California, Connecticut has the strictest gun control laws.

Are you sure you mean "strictest" in a general sense?  Or do you mean, "strictest" among states that reside within a particular nation whose constitution guarantees access to firearms?

What an utterly tragic event. My prayers are with all those affected, and for the safety of all of America's children.

The American freedom to bear arms made sense at one time, but that was over 200 years ago. It is hard to justify such a right when the freedom keeps being used by gunmen to slaughter innocent people, especially when those innocent are children.

Last night on TV I watched some American politicians state that it was time to start talking about gun control. I suppose that's a step in the right direction, but talking can go on and on and on. What it's actually time for is for them to actually begin to control their guns.

Rich blessings.

Azdgari, the latter.

As this all sinks in, what this brings to mind for me is, are we raising our sons differently than our daughters? Is this a result of nature or nurture? Rarely do we hear of a female doing this (or at all?) I don't mean to suggest that individual parents are necessarily responsible but rather is it our culture? And before we as Canadians exclude ourselves from the mix and regard this as strictly an "American thing", we need to be realistic in the fact that our culture is closely tied with theirs.

And it's not just gun control. It's an out of control American culture that glamorizes guns and that frightens people and makes them think that they need to have guns in order to be safe and that actually turns possession of them into a fundamental right of a citizen.

It's also interesting that if you read the US Constitution you find that the right to ownership of guns is tied to a "well regulated militia." The implication of the founders seems to have been that the purpose of guns was not the "self-defence" of individual citizens but rather so that the government would have the ability to quickly call up a militia if needed in defence of the country. To me, that implication is a "collective" right to be used and regulated collectively, rather than an individual right so that I can own what I want and do whatever I want with it.

If politicians won't act, the movement for stricter gun control must come from the people.

Published on Friday, December 14, 2012 by Common Dreams

"My fervent hope is that out of tragedy comes revelation. What will it take? Nothing less than the unwavering commitment of all people of good conscience to step back from the abyss of hopelessness, and to reclaim the virtues of being caretakers rather than consumers of ourselves, one another, and the world around us. For the sake of all that makes life worth living, let us from today forward build a society whose highest ideal is to save our children and preserve our future."

Do we, as Canadians (with gun control) feel safe? Should we?

I say no.

The guns were legal. The guns were registered. Strict laws would not help. This could have been Canada.

Do we pretend Canada does not have a gun culture? That people do not listen to the same music, play the same video games, have the same mental illnesses....?

We like to say it could not happen here.

Liking it does not make it true.

What of the violence that is now "normal"? What of the violence that is acceptable?What of the expression of the emotions we have, all of us? Is it healthy or not? How sick are all of us?

As I listen to people say, "too bad he killed himself, the parents should have had a go at him". As I look at a Facebook page put up the second the wrong brothers name went out that uses vile names and says so much that is sickening and violent. People so glad about one of the victims was killed (the shooters mother). She, they feel, deserved it for having guns.

We share a world with people who think it is fine to go on a news feed and read comments and then verbally kill someone.We say "don't bully" to children and yet these are not children. People think it is fine to call them every name in the book, wish them dead, threaten that you will kill them and know where thery live, etc. It is fine to threaten their family.

Those folks are not neatly tucked in another country far away from us.

The mentally ill and those filled with rage, filled with a want to kill, they are not quarantined to the south.

But pretending they are, pretending someone in your neighbourhood is not unhinged, pretending that there are no guns, pretending it is their problem, it is because of their laws, that they have a culture....

It makes us feel safe.

We are not they.

But, yes we are.

Are you content with feeling safe and not knowing about your school's security policy? Lockdown procedures?

Do registrations and background checks make you feel safe?  What of those who may have access, were they checked? What of those who live in the same home?

We likely won't let it sink in. We will likely keep pointing fingers. We will demonize. We will criticize. We will likely keep thinking it happens to those people and could not happen to us. We will likely move on to another story, another active crime scene or another scene of horror. When it is the next one.... or it comes to our neighbourhood, our family, our school... when the robocall goes out to us.... we will ask how we turned our head, how we pretended...

We will say "another one, how does this happen" and so the dance goes on.

GUNS -this thread is back in 2010 that I posted  IN POLITICS-  can't imbed it. I wonder if any have changed their minds     ( ummmmmm, wonder where these posters are)

And yet I am thinking of an Amish Community that experienced much the same from a school shooting and how differently it was handled.....and the respect and wonder that it evoked from all of us.

They did not welcome reporters so much. They surrounded the grieving with loving arms and with peaceful resolution in their hearts while doing their best to keep a somewhat "foreign" culture from influencing how they would heal.

Personally, I feel very safe. I wonder why you don't? At the same time as I feel safe I'm very aware of the possibilities of what could happen, but that doesn't take away the reality that I feel safe. I also feel safe when driving a car, even though I know there's a chance that I could be killed in a car accident every time I get behind the wheel.

Check the rates of gun ownership in Canada compared to the United States. Check the rate of occurrence of mass shootings in Canada compared to the United States. Check the rate of killing by guns. The most recent I can find says that the United States had 2.97 gun deaths per 100000 people. Canada had 0.51. To some extent the US was born out of a distrust of government and the belief that citizens had to defend themselves against government. There's a very real sense among at least some Americans that you can't allow only the police to have guns because oit's against the police that we might have to defend ouselves. That's not the case in Canada. 

Of course we have a gun culture in Canada. It's just not the same as the gun culture in the United States.

I don't know of anyone who says it couldn't happen here. The issue is the rate of occurrence.

The reality is that every single piece of available evidence suggests that gun control laws reduce gun crime, and the stricter the gun control laws, the less gun crime there is.

I feel safe in a car, aware there can be an accident.

Should I feel safe in spite of hearing a dangerous recall? No.

There is a difference to me.

We are getting warnings.

We can however play the game.

Street gangs were all over the US and not Canada. Can we say the same now? Meth was a US Midwest scourge. It was a trailer park thing. Can we say the same thing now?

The Tea Party was a laughing stock and Toronto elected Rob Ford.

We act like this world is not connected. 

Are we saying that we think in the fabric of our being we are better than others?

That the world really has a dotted line dividing Canada and the US?

That in Canada there is not easy access to guns? That there are not the mentally ill? There are not those who are rage filled? That drugs used to treat illnesses can cause horrible side effects? That there is drug addiction? That there is abuse and can be rage following it? That there are those who desire to do something heinous and horrible?

This is the debate that we prefer,""it is their problem, not ours" or "we are more advanced".... and " if you say __ you must not support gun control." and "it ain;t that bad yet here"
 

I support gun control and always have. I am not however not willing to have this discussion while a father and a brother blame themselves for a gun in the house. I am not having this discussion while parents scream at each other through tears that "you support guns" or "if the teacher had a gun". I am not having it while children's bodies still lie in a school waiting to be removed. I am not having it while some siblings and friends have not been told that someone has died.

In this moment, my thoughts are with those folks and with their heartbreak and pain...

I am not fixated, there are other thoughts, plans for Christmas, calls to make, things to do....
 

Yet, today, when my thoughts are on Connecticut, they need to be on pain, heartache.... feelings..... thinking before saying....

It is not ok, for me, for it to be on politics, propaganda, agenda.... it is only ok for it to be emotional, not cerebral.

I am also not ok with "heaven got more angels" and all that shit.

It is about grief and hurt and all that, for me....

If it is ok for others, let them have at it.

For me, it is not the time.

Although getting angry may be our first reponse, eventually let us all light a candle and say a prayer in solidarity for the victims who are wounded rather than remaining and living in anger and  showing a mispent solidarity with the killer.

SG, isn't being afraid of being attacked by others one of the components of the very gun culture that is the problem in the first place?  Do we want to further adopt that?

18 children killed in one day.

I wonder what the number was in Afghanistan - or under drones in Pakistan, Yemen, or Somalia?

Is it nicer to get killed with official approval?

Of course, those other children weren't full of life and happiness. they were different, and their deaths no cause for mourning or searching out causes

SG should learn more about guns. Pistols, for example, are pretty much only for killing people. So are assault rifles. The assault rifles are inferior for most types of hunting - but excellent for killing people, expecially for mass killing since they have large magazines.

It's possible to do a mass killing with a gun that has a 24 inch barrel, bolt action, 4 shot magazine. But  a lot more difficult.

Ii glad you feel comfortable driving in a car despite the possibility of an accident. Would you still feel confident driving in a city with not speed limits, including for 18 wheelers and tanks?

Strange thing about these mass murders in the US. Millions carry guns on the plea they need them to protect themselves. a man shoots up a theatre in a state notorious for pistol ownership. Not one shot was fired back. Did he carefully pick the only theatrre in the state in which most of the audience was not armed.

In fact, I don't know of a mass killing in the US in which there has been return fire.

CH

Here's your thread on guns from 2010. I didn't read it all yet. I don't agree with the general public running around carrying guns or owning guns for no reason. An uncle of mine in N.S. did own a hunting rifle he used for protection because he lived alone far out in the country without a phone. At the time  there was a mentally ill person who had tried to burn down a bridge.

I feel so sad and just awful about these little kids. We can't even imagine how the parents are feeling or coping.

http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/politics/guns

Thanks for posting it Stardust

Stricter gun control? Maybe. People can get access to guns illegally though. Could even rob a gun shop.

What would make someone commit such a horrible crime?

I can't imagine.

I also can't imagine the horrible grief that the families of the children are feeling at this moment. The tragedy of of this is too great to put into words.

More rules do not solve problems. We still have people who drink and drive despite the strict laws. Do stricter rules keep some drunk drivers off the street? Maybe.

The 0.05 rule keeps people like me from having a glass of wine at supper. I was never a drunk driver. Stricter gun rules may end up keeping safe people from owning fire arms.

All over facebook we have trite sayings like "God how could you let this happen? And God answers saying. I wasn't allowed in the school"

So some people will use this as their fear mongering to prove their bias. "Oh this is what happens when we don't allow God in the school". "This man was bullied as a child and he's just lashing out "Or the latest one I just heard on the news "we need to put more money into early childhood programs"

There isn't one reason this happened. There are many. This young man (whom is peers have now condemned to rot in hell for all eternity) fell through many cracks. Not just one.

I have CNN on but its almost too gruesome and sad to watch.

I was googling for news on  guns in the U.S. Its hard to get up to date info. on the net.

Worth watching - he makes good points.

"What Is The True Cost Of America's Obsession With Guns"

Comments by Bill Moyers

http://www.upworthy.com/what-is-the-true-cost-of-americas-obsession-with...

In Loving Memory of Nancy Lanza by her friends:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gSSbv2hGHcU

SG, I'd like to share this with my friends, if I could?

Azdagari, the culture of fear is based on an idea that "we" can protect you. You can protect yourself... and yes, it can have some saying, "the answer to gun violence is more gins"....

I am not promoting fear. It is not fear to have a smoke alarm or a carbon monoxide detector. It is also not enough to rely on the batteries being good or that the smoke alarm will get you out of the house.

We must be proactive, that si not paranoia and fear. It is common sense.

For me, the culture is like people wearing life preserves because drowning happens. The government could try to drown you. Arm yourself. Everyone should have and keep a life preserver. People should be able to wear them everywhere. If people would have had life preservers they would still be alive.

That, to me, isj ust ridiculous. It is paranoia. Substitute gun for life preserver and we have what some believe.

______

graeme,
News flash, I am FOR gun control.

I am also well aware that if you say something people do not agree with that people paint you as something else or don't even listen... they make you who they want you to be, who they thought you said you were... and care nothing for who you are.

-------
Inanna,
Use away

 Note of interest re Nancy Lanza:

Here is a list of the victims. I hope they are all included.

P.S. Regarding the shooter  Adam Lanza I would like to concur with what Robbie Parker (above) has said and say Amen. I offer his family and friends my sympathy along with  faith and  hope for  a better tomorrow.

I just came across this blog, with a post about this tragedy, and about Emilie Parker's dad that I found quite moving.

http://soullibertyfaith.com/free-will-as-taught-by-robbie-parker-in-conn...

Kimmio:

Emilie's dad is amazing.

I vaguely remember Crazyheart and myself talking about the Colorado....?....shooting. Gaby the congress woman was shot. We watched the memorial service for all of the victims. The shooter and his family were never mentioned as if they never existed or were non persons. I can understand the idea is not to give the shooter the glory and notoriety he may have sought. Still I believe its wrong not to include his name  at all in the service. He is/was a member of the human race and a great tragedy has befallen himself and his family.

Emilie's dad Parker  said:

Parker said he knows that God can’t take away free will and would have been unable to stop the Sandy Hook shooting. While gunman Adam Lanza used his free agency to take innocent lives, Parker said he plans to use his in a positive way.

“I’m not mad because I have my  [free] agency to use this event to do whatever I can to make sure my family and my wife and my daughters are taken care [of],” he said. “And if there’s anything I can do to help to anyone at any time at anywhere, I’m free to do that.”

(Amen.....God give him and his family strength, hope,  courage, and love )

Crime and Punishment - Kahlil Gibran

http://www.katsandogz.com/oncrime.html

Edit Correction: It was Gaby Gifford, the Arizona shooting.