Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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Mr, Mrs, Ms... or Mr., Mrs., Ms.?

Reading the news lately it just occurred to me that the period is being left off. Is this because written language has gotten lazier with text and twitter? Is it the norm now, or the exception? I've also noticed more typos and grammar errors in articles published online by credible newspapers than used to be the case.

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Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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At first I thought it was just the one article leaving the periods off, but I've since noticed it in several. I can get used to it. It's still readable, and the story is what's important, but it looks like a punctuation error to me. In school, papers with such errors would have come back with red pen all over them. Punctuation in general, like commas, is being left out more. You get used to reading and using shortcuts with social media, and my punctuation accuracy is lacking, but maybe a change in official written language is the consequence of everyday shortcuts.

Sterton's picture

Sterton

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I much prefer Mr. as it's an abbreviation.  I'm pro period.  I, in fact, still use two spaces after every sentences as per type-writer teachings.  

Mendalla's picture

Mendalla

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I think the problem with online material is that the goal is speed so they often let it go up with minimal editing then go back and edit later when time allows, hence more typos and grammar errors.

 

The other issue, to be honest, is declining awareness of the importance of these things. I do some editing of content on another site and some people don't even know how to do paragraphs and quotes correctly. As in, I have had content submitted that is all one giant paragraph, quotes and all.frown

 

As for periods on terms of address, I have always used them and would assume that is the correct way but it could be one of those things where different style manuals give different rules. I would have to consult a style manual or two to see.

 

Mendalla

 

seeler's picture

seeler

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I went to school at a time when grammar was considered essential for communication.  We actually parsed sentences.  By the time my children were in school, grammar wasn't taught - free expression was considered more important.  Fortunately, my son had a teacher in junior high who taught grammar and her grew up knowing the parts of speach and how to use them.  He still writes beautifully while his sister sometimes struggles to express herself in the written form.  

 

I've grown sloppy.  I use dashes to set apart or insert thoughts and ideas.

 

However, I still like a well written and punctuated sentence.   I look for the subject and predicate when reading a long or complicated sentence.  If I get a letter starting "Referring to our recent telephone conversation."  I wonder where is the rest of it.   It's not a sentence, it's a dangling phrase.  

 

I prefer Mr. or Mrs. or Ms.   for formal situations and I use the period.  Otherwise I'm apt to leave it off altogether and just write the name  - Margaret Wright, Charlie Smallwood, Doug Brown without a title.

 

 

 

 

chemgal's picture

chemgal

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Sterton wrote:

I much prefer Mr. as it's an abbreviation.  I'm pro period.  I, in fact, still use two spaces after every sentences as per type-writer teachings.  

Ditto, but my typing classes were computer based.  I also had a bio TA who was super strict about the two spaces, we were given specfic guidelines for font, margins, etc. and it was difficult to keep to the page limits.  Someone lost numerous points because they weren't taught to double space and the TA thought they did it to squeeze in a few extra words.

Beloved's picture

Beloved

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Sterton wrote:

I much prefer Mr. as it's an abbreviation.  I'm pro period.  I, in fact, still use two spaces after every sentences as per type-writer teachings.  

 

Yup, me too Sterton!

 

Mendalla's picture

Mendalla

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chemgal wrote:

Sterton wrote:

I much prefer Mr. as it's an abbreviation.  I'm pro period.  I, in fact, still use two spaces after every sentences as per type-writer teachings.  

Ditto, but my typing classes were computer based.  I also had a bio TA who was super strict about the two spaces, we were given specfic guidelines for font, margins, etc. and it was difficult to keep to the page limits.  Someone lost numerous points because they weren't taught to double space and the TA thought they did it to squeeze in a few extra words.

 

Double spacing was needed on old typewriters that allocated the same amount of space for each character regardless of the size/appearance of the character (called monospaced fonts). On monospaced fonts, the double space after the period does help readability so it was adopted as the norm.

 

Modern word processors use proportional fonts from typesetting, not monospaced fonts. In a proportional font, spacing automatically adjusts to account for the fact that "l" is thinner than "D" and such like. In a proportional font, adding an extra space after the period is not needed and can, in fact, detract from readability because it will actually leave more space after the "." than is needed.

 

IOW, there is a technical reason for the change. It isn't just a change in style or preference.

 

Good article on the subject: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html

 

Mendalla

 

 

chemgal's picture

chemgal

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I'll probably end up switching over eventually.  Right now, the two spaces are still expected at times and I would rather fully switch over all at once as it will take a bit of retraining rather than flip flopping back and forth.

 

Any idea why the typing taught in schools required the two spaces for computer classes?  It's not just the way the teachers learned, as it was that curriculum and the typing programs as well.

Mendalla's picture

Mendalla

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chemgal wrote:

Any idea why the typing taught in schools required the two spaces for computer classes?  It's not just the way the teachers learned, as it was that curriculum and the typing programs as well.

 

I'm not sure when the switch finally became formalized. I know my son has never learned to do two spaces and he started in the school system in 2004, though he had a typing program even before that, IIRC.

 

I learned on a manual typewriter but got "switched" fairly early in the game. I haven't hit Space twice (save for when formatting plain text) in eons.

 

Mendalla

 

 

Mendalla

 

carolla's picture

carolla

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Interesting factoid Mendalla re the proportional spacing!  As one who first learned to type in Grade 9 - on a manual typewriter ... LOL - I'm in the 'two spaces after a period' school.  Still do it by habit.  I guess my Grade 9 typing teacher Mr. Weber (with a period after Mr!) would be proud to see his enduring influence!!

UnDefinitive's picture

UnDefinitive

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My personal preference is first and/or last name ... no title.

EasternOrthodox's picture

EasternOrthodox

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Mr. vs Mr : Tends to be UK/Aus/NZ vs North America, although every newspaper has its own style book.

Another difference along the same lines is NATO vs Nato (i.e., instead of capitalizing all letters in the acronym, only the first is capitalized.

It had nothing to do with bad grammar or laziness, just different ideas of style.

There is no ultimate institution to arbitrate how English should be written (as many other languages have), so instead news sites and publishers each decide for themselves.

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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I'm not in the two spaces habit. I know on WC my punctuation is not great. I'm just surprised to see so many typos and errors in news articles by people being paid to write and edit. I suppose they're not all errors, though. Thanks for explaining, EO and everyone. Nice to see you here, EO.

I remember when it was expected that paragraphs be indented like this. Hey, I made an indent but it defaulted to no indent when I hit save. It's clearly indented right now as I type but you don't see it once I post.

Also, I think commas and semi-colons are used less; I forget, would this be proper use of a semi-colon? ;)

Mendalla's picture

Mendalla

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carolla wrote:

 As one who first learned to type in Grade 9 - on a manual typewriter ... LOL - I'm in the 'two spaces after a period' school.  Still do it by habit.  I guess my Grade 9 typing teacher Mr. Weber (with a period after Mr!) would be proud to see his enduring influence!!

 

Ditto me, though I got broken of the habit. In the end, I used my typing more on computers than typewriters. Personal computers came out when I was in grade school and were starting to show up in schools while I was in high school. By the time I hit the working world, computers were becoming the norm.

 

Mendalla

 

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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In casual conversations such as on social media, I'm definately not a stickler. Not with people I chat with everyday. I hope there's reciprocal acceptance of casual communication. A business letter is a different story. I'd take the extra time to make sure it was proper. The only time spelling, grammar, and punctuation bother me is when comments that are meant to be straightforward (as opposed to poetic/ creative alteration of words meant to challenge the brain) are so full of errors they're hard to understand. Even so, I'll ask for clarification if I need to. It's more important to me that a comment be understandable than grammatically correct.


The reason I brought up the Mr., Mrs., Ms. thing is because I wondered if it was an error or a new and acceptable style preference; because language usage changes with culture. We live in the digital/ twitter/ instant messaging culture. If it's the former, it shows hastiness on the part of news writers/ editors. If it's the latter, I'll just get used to it.

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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Although, I do edit my own posts quite a bit. Mostly to ensure the point I want to make comes across the way I want it to, than to make it perfectly proper.

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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It used to bug me when people would text using all lower case, no punctuation and text shorthand. I've gotten over it.

Dcn. Jae's picture

Dcn. Jae

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Kimmio wrote:
Reading the news lately it just occurred to me that the period is being left off. Is this because written language has gotten lazier with text and twitter? Is it the norm now, or the exception? I've also noticed more typos and grammar errors in articles published online by credible newspapers than used to be the case.

 

It should be Mister and Missus if written out longhand, Mr. and Mrs. if abbreviated. I do not recognize Ms.

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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I don't usually write (or see) Mister and Missus (or Mistress) written longhand unless in old English novels. Language expectations do change.

Mendalla's picture

Mendalla

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Yeah, the days of writing those out is long gone (even "Doctor" is rarely written out when used as a title anymore) but it does make the point that these are, in fact, abbreviations hence the period.

 

Mendalla

 

chemgal's picture

chemgal

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I think the only title that I've written out has been Professor.

Mendalla's picture

Mendalla

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And even that gets cut down to Prof. (Assoc. Prof., Asst. Prof., etc.) a lot of the time now, I'm finding.

 

Mendalla

 

chemgal's picture

chemgal

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yup

Rev. Steven Davis's picture

Rev. Steven Davis

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Originally, Mr. and Mrs. were abbreviations of "master" and "mistress."  As abbreviations, there's a logic to using the period. Ms (or Ms.) is a bit different. It's obviously related to Mrs. and could therefore also be considered an abbreviation requiring a period - and from what I've read it originally started to be used in the 17th century and was also an abbreviation of "Mistress." In its modern usage though (it fell out of favour quickly and wasn't revived until the latter part of the 20th century, largely through Ms. Magazine) it's not really an abbreviation - it's more an alternative to Miss and Mrs. and it's considered non-sexist in that, like "Mr.," it doesn't differentiate between married and non-married the way "Miss" and "Mrs." does. I understand it started to get picked up big time in 1984 when Geraldine Ferraro was running for Vice President of the United States on Walter Mondale's ticket. She had kept the name "Ferraro" and her husband's name was Zaccaro - so she couldn't be called "Mrs. Ferraro," and since she was married she wasn't "Miss Ferraro," so she started to be called "Ms Ferraro."

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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It was before that, Rev. Stephen. 'Ms.' is a feminist magazine co-founded by Gloria Steinham in the 70s. She, as I understand, was also one of the people who brought up using 'Ms.' as a title and it became popularized through the magazine. I definately remember my mom using it as a divorcee, before Geraldine Ferraro was around- at least US politics wasn't her reason. She was too mature to be Miss, too childish for her strong independent streak, and didn't want to be tied to her married title (and was a Ms. reader. I remember them around the house). The magazine is now pretty mainstream. Well...it's in grocery stores.

Rev. Steven Davis's picture

Rev. Steven Davis

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I know. I mentioned Ms. Magazine as being central to reviving its popularity. Ms. Magazine was founded by Gloria Steinem in 1971. But it became more common in popular usage because of the media having to figure out what to call Geraldine Ferraro during the 1984 presidential election when she ran for Vice President.

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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You're right. You did mention it. I'm mistaken. I guess because I was around my mom and her single friends I got used to it earlier- it was already pretty common in our house before 1984- and now it's very common.

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