I think that everyone is different and "the call" isnt the same for every one.

Welcome RobbieJean to WonderCafe.

Hi RobbieJean - interesting to hear you are thinking more about ministry.  A few years ago, there was a similar thread here  & many people responded -  here's a link to it - http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/religion-and-faith/call-ministry

I'm sure you'll still hear from others in this thread :-)

RobbieJean,

It was always there, I suppose. For various reasons, I just said "no, it can't be, not me". I used my gifts in other ways thinking, "this will do it". Still, it persisted down deep.

One day, I was asked if if would lead worship. My response shocked me. I did not just say "no I don;t think so" or "no thank you". It was more like, "are you out of your mind?" Something was adamant,"no way!"

Why? I had taken active roles before and I have no fear of public speaking. So, what was it?

I sat with the thought and realized I was afraid. I was more than afriad, I was petrified that deep down I had always known and that if I did it "just once" I was done.

So, I said that I would lead worship. I even added, "just this once". (Maybe I thought that doing it would prove me wrong.)

I said I would lead more than once, but "only in my church". I said countless things....

The path was before me and I guess I finally quit resisting.  =)

Hello RobbieJean and welcome to WonderCafe.ca,

Not surprisingly this is a question that has been asked before.  Which is not to say that it cannot be asked again and again as new members join.

This is an older thread where several of us share our call stories.

http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/church-life/ministers-how-did-you-kn...

Grace and peace to you.

John

Thanks everyone, I just looked over at that thread. It is amazing how everyone was called in different ways, sometimes not in the way they had imagined. Definitely food for thought :)

BC Conference is hosting a discernment weekend Early June for the subsidized price of $75.   At Naramata Centre-near Penticton. If you are interested I will message you the details.

That's interesting Tabitha - I was just at a final discernment meeting last night, where we spoke about how just such a thing would be excellent to hold at Five Oaks in our area!

RobbieJean,

It is interesting to have a calling.   However, a "calling" may just be a hallucination; one which the church thinks is witty and poetic and uses to draft ministers while, at the same time trying to figure out if they want the individual or not.

Do what is in your heart, soul, mind, growth, belief, and sex.  This is yourself. 

I will be there! Nice to meet ya RobbieJean! Like you, I am also trying to discern my call - and I am also a Sunday School teacher. Feel free to wondermail me if you want to chat.

The trouble is the community will demand you keep one foot in reality and none in the anonymous ... giving rise to gross satyrs ... these will bedevil you as a mere mortal ... until you step into that great beyond ... mythical?

It is not but that depends on where you are in the creature called S(elf) ... many of fixated beliefs on "what is" ... won't go there ... no interest what-so-ever in what can be ... pure conservation is the ideal ... why creation put the drop outs at this point in space time and the light of the situation ... and few see much use in light cognizance ... Levites? Quick; they pass before you note em ... much like beaux-UNES ... unreal, irrational, or just more complex than a mortal could figure on ?

As a say bi .. step out beyond and observe ...

The Newfie says heis and expert ... been away bye! The contemplative fringe ... just beyond the cerulean ... that's bleu ... as LGK would say ... unseen forces?

jlin,

I want to say that like when people say "born again", we can have baggage or assumptions of what that implies.

If we genuinely explore it, for some it is a flash or a one time event, for others it is slow and evolving or ongoing. 

People often hear people say they "heard God" or "were called by God"  and they can think it is a burning bush moment thing and not an evolution. They may even think people are hallucinating. 

Discernment definitely explores "call".

IMO we need, as the church, to explore it before then, because (for me) I think people say "not me" because of what they did not hear as well as what they think they hear and expectations and assumptions. They may feel something gentle and nudging, not dramatic and life altering. They may not think "call" can be gradual, etc

I see many younger people who are gifted and feel "called" but do not think of "church leadership" or "church initiatives" because they think ministers are some alien thing that they are not. It is about many words we use, even words like Holy Spirit or inspired.  I had a young person say they thought ministers actually hear God give them sermons and then do trance or automatic writing or that the Spirit moves them at sermon time and they just go with it. This person has obvious gifts and has been using them in various ways, perhaps because we (meaning the church) have done "church" and not as good job at creating disciples. 

After reading these stories,, (pretty amazing), I'm wondering if any of you in ministry have ever noticed someone in your congregations that you felt compelled to "steer" into ministry?

There is more and more call to this type of mystical contemplation beyond the church walls ... as church often does not believe in contemplation, or concepts, as it rings too close to thought and knowledge and Genesis excludes that during excessive fogs of desires ... or is that backward like an echo ... reflection as a glassy stare?

Bounce that one ...

I would not say "steer".

I have invited the conversation or explored it with a few people. It was returning the gift, as it was a gift given to me. Someone asked, "have you ever thought..."

IMO, I feel I am called to proclaim the gospel and there is that Great Commission to create disciples. 

It was tried by one or two elder members of the congregation (perhaps inevitably given that I had a grandfather in the ministry) after I started doing lay pulpit supply during the summer in my United Church. I politely changed the topic. I've been asked by a couple UUs if I ever considered the ministry and did much the same.

I do seem to have a gift for preaching and leading worship, but whether possessing that gift consitutes a call to ministry is a whole other matter. I have ministered in my way through doing services and helping organize worship. I feel no deep inclination, "call" if you must, to go further with it than that (and I'm not even doing that much at the moment).

Mendalla

Mendella, I could see you going into the ministry, but then I also see Chansen going into ministry.

SG... Define Great Commission. There seems to be many definitions out there. What did Jesus say?

not4prophet,

Some see that as gaining converts on domestic and foreign soils. Soem think that is the goal, even if those people already have a religion and a believe in God. Some do not proselytize and see other things. 

We can all read what is given in scripture and see it a tad differently. 

For myself, I see that as being told to go and share the Good News and you create disciples who then wish to share the Good News they hear with others. 

That, for me, is for ALL believers and not reserved for clergy. The only aspect I see in Matthew, that in some faiths is reserved for clergy, is the sacrament of baptism.

Ok, you speak of "Good News", the gospel. Which Gospel? What did Jesus say?

God as called me by a number of different means -- wise counsel from fellow Christians, providential circumstances, mentoring from a gifted pastor, the inner voice of the Holy Spirit, and recommendations from Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, and United Church members.

Could I? Sure. I probably have the necessary skill set. I can speak and I can write, and I can empathize with others and have some counselling skillz.

I would need to learn a lot more about the bible, and try not to give myself a concussion out of frustration in the process.

It wouldn't work, though. I just can't lie to people. That's what I'd be doing if I was in ministry - I'd be lying to people as an occupation. Couldn't do it.

not4prophet, 

I really take no interest in playing the Kingdom versus worldy gameor prophecy game, you are getting known for, with you. 

I never said "the gospel". You did.

As you said, I spoke of the "Good News". You said "the gospel" and then posed questions based on the phrase/word you used.  

I would answer, "Yes, I mean the Good News, the gospel, the glad tidings... the message of Jesus."

Much hinges on the use of a word.

You then asked "which Gospel?" as though you did not understand my use of the word.

Were you asking which of the four canonized gospels I spread? Or are you trying to delve into my theological beliefs? 

Posing "what did Jesus say?" is more for the Jesus Seminar types to try to make educated and informed guesses about. It is not my forte nor is it my style or theology.

One might ask, "what did Jesus say where?" or "do you mean, what is Jesus recorded as saying?"

Again, not my favourite game to play. 

I just assumed one would follow what Jesus said regarding gospel/good news.. for instance...

Luke 4: 43  And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

Mark 1: 14  Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

not4prophet, 

It seems to me, you were more interested in "are you with me or against me" stuff or wanted to point out some error in my spreading the Good News. 

I am not a fan of "the true gospel' or playing "who is more Christian". 
I am not a fan of plucking scripture that I feel props up what I am saying. 
I am not a fan of cherry picking and saying " see this, this is what the Bible says"
I am not a fan of across the board saying, "what dud Jesus say" or even "what would Jesus do"

I take my faith a little more serious than that.

See, I know that people can say they are Christian while they abuse and even kill others.
I know that people can pluck out verses saying that interracial marriage is wrong or that blacks are evil. 
I know that folks could pick out a verse saying to kill unruly children. 
I know Jesus is not recorded as loudly and clearly opposing slavery. 

So, in your assumption that I do not follow Jesus regarding the gospel/good news and attaching the scripture verses you did...

Are you bearing false witness that I do not preach the Kingdom, that I do not preach to other cities... that I do not preach that the kingdom is at hand?

What are you assuming about me? Why not simply ask? Why not even simply state it as an accusation where I can defend myself rather than an assumption that is vague at the least. 

Your problem is....?

I merely asked you questions.

You asked "which Gospel" and "what did Jesus say", to which I asked for clarification.

You then said, "I just assumed one would follow what Jesus said regarding gospel/good news.. for instance..." and cited two of many verses.

I am saying, what are you asssuming? Why not ask? I am asking what are you assuming and on what basis?

I am assuming that there is only one gospel that Jesus told us to proclaim and that is His Gospel of the Kingdom. When people speak of gospels they rarely indicate which one of many circulating out there, the most predominant one being the later gospel of salvation; just as there seems to be many definitions of Great Commission, when Jesus gave only one.. Just seeking clarification.

Too bad, you'd be a amzing if you believed. Ah well.

You'd be a compelling speaker, that's for sure. Of course, first you would have to choose to believe. And then God would have to choose to call you. Mere skill is  alone are not enough.

Someone may be a naturally talented leader and God may look instead to someone else. Better to have someone who's naturally weak but supernaturally empowered then someone who's naturally strong but supernaturally unchosen. 

If you learn to believe in the Jacobean family would you need to be a good lyre or just a Master myther ... being as the whole existence we see appears to be based on misplaced truths ... or at least misunderstood alterations ...

Whatever works ... oh-oh that's disambiguation ... a chaos opposing love ... like knowing too many words for the same thing! Good for stirring the soul into awareness tho' ...

Then who can define soul as an indeterminate? Irrational Nos ... sort of the inhumane side ...

UU minister, my friend. You can still be an atheist. You study and preach on not only the Bible but also other traditions, including secular philosophy and science. And you won't have to lie or be an authority figure so much as be a spiritual (in the sense of helping people explore their relationship to reality, not in a supernatural sense) guide. It's where I would likely go if I felt a call to ministry.

Mendalla

SG 

I didn't mean that kind of hallucination.  I actually meant the kind of hallucination which is a dream state or transient sense.  I think that the actual gifts, talents, language base, creativity, common sense and all sorts of great things that make up a really great minister ( your for example - and I hope my flattery is understood as merited) are not necessarily a "calling" or something other - not necessarily a born-again, but an accrual of experience.

Experience may be a "calling".  Using this to benefit a minsitry is just good common sense - that sort of thing.  IE ministry may be a secondary bonus to a community from a life and wisdom worth understanding (yours for example - see above)

JL

See, there I would struggle to come up with a decent sermon (lecture?) every week. At least when you have a mythical God to talk about, you can go on forever about what this God wants. The crazy thing is, I could have a lot of fun impersonating a believer. I've done it here before.

I could talk about how God chose to call me. I was on a quiet walk through my old neighbourhood one summer evening. God was whispering to me, but as always (because I was an atheist), I refused to hear him. Eventually, God got frustrated with me, grabbed me by the testicles and pulled hard.

"Jesus Christ!" I screamed.

"My idiot son isn't even here," hissed God.

"Dad, I'm everywhere."

"Shut up!"

I could go on like this for hours, as long as I'm just having fun. I can't be serious about it, because there's nothing to be taken seriously.

In a UU setting....I just don't see the point. So, we don't believe in superstitious deities. Are we supposed to celebrate coming to a reasonable conclusion based on lack of evidence for anything else? I'd be like, "Okay, everyone. Let's try to think about others and not be twits. Everybody got that? See you next week."

I think I mentioned before. I went to a few UU services a few years ago. One was preached (more like a lecture or presentation- but very meaningful and engaging- like a TED talk- that's it! UU services can be like TED talks) by an environmentalist on Earth Day, another one was shared by the minister and someone else- about the history of blues music told through stories of slavery and the struggle for freedom. There was a blues musician there playing. There was no mention of God, but goodwill was felt and exchanged around the room. It was enriching- good things to think about. And good sense of community and social justice. They did, a couple of times, read short passages from different religious texts- discussed the metaphor or context. I just felt at the time the focus was too broad. The church I go to is similar I guess, but Jesus is always central to the discussion. He is the focal point, and even when mentioning other traditions- the comparisons come back and focus on Jesus' message, and the gospels and the common threads in other traditions or literature or music or life stories- but Jesus is always present in the experience and the reason for being there. Which was a significant reason for me- otherwise very similar (but again I wanted to go where Jesus was central). Whereas with UU there is no religious focal point, overall, I found- and sometimes (or often) no religious message at all (I think those inclined to would find one and those not inclined to may or may not), just food for thought about life. But I did enjoy going there.

We have, in fact, had lectures and discussions on various topics of interest as the core of the service, though we've kind of moved away from those. They are a mixed blessing. Less "church-y" and therefore not enticing to those wanting a more worship-oriented experience but very much what the humanists wanted back when we had a more humanist orientation.

There's an amazing amount to talk about. In my UU fellowship, I tend to focus more on spiritual imagery and exploration (e.g. I've done sermons on the mythological imagery of the four elements, on the role of scripture and its relationship to UU sources, on images of "God" and how our image of the Divine influences our world view). Others focus more on social justice issues (e.g. we have a human rights activist) or specific sources they find meaningful (e.g. a Buddhist service or a pagan service). We often (1 service a month right now) address social justice questions, both the big picture ones like building a better world, and the local ones like the impact of a particular project we support. The minister has to try to tie it all together along with introducing themes and ideas he/she finds relevant.

Mendalla

Oh, I could see there being things to talk about. I just think there are so many other things to do in a weekend. I can see UUism more as something to do when you're losing your faith but want to go somewhere on Sunday mornings. Really, you guys should be huge by now, given how many people have dropped Christianity. I don't know why you're not

SIgh. We are in some areas. There are some huge and growing UU congregations, mostly South of the border where we've always been bigger and more visible than up here. Alas, London is definitely not one of them and there are both current and historical reasons for that. To be honest, I've largely dropped out now for reasons of my own.

Mendalla

Pardon the ignorance but what is UU and what is it's relation to the United Church of Canada?

Unitarian Universalist
http://www.uua.org/beliefs/principles/index.shtml

Mendalla could answer far better but I believe at one time they were a liberal Christian church but then expanded to embrace other faiths and belief systems. They're not new. They're not closely connected with UCC but I found they share similarities. UCC is Christ and Bible centrd. For example, my minister always draws sermons from the Bible and discusses God. Other traditions may be mentioned as points of interest or things we share in common, but the sermons are Biblically based. When I visited UU, the sermons could be focused on the traditions of several faiths (one Sunday could be Buddhism, next week Hinduism, etc, or none, or several points made from several religions- the metaphorical/ meaning aspects in one sermon. Jesus, if discussed, is respected as one prophetic human voice among many and many faiths and traditions have much to teach us- none are given more weight Some people might lean more toward one particular faith than another, some are agnostic or atheist- but all gather together.(tell me Mendalla if I am off here- this is my limited exoerience and impression only). I liked it there, really liked the people and the social justice aspect, except for the absence of Jesus from the discussions. I've even since thought, "I wonder if that is the kind of 'temple' Jesus would approve of?" given what I have been learning on my own journey- and given that it's a cross section of everyone together in one place- maybe even a bit like WC but in person- but then again I'm not sure.I ended up going to my closest UCC church, eventually, because it's Christ centred- I really felt 'called' to such a place- but the social themes are not in opposition.

Thanky.

"Okay lets try and think about others and not be twits" Lol!

Twits could be the new word for sinners...hahaha

Actually, my interest in faith was piqued at one point when my dad (who is not religious- if he is he's very private about it) gave ne a book a collection of religious literature from various traditions he bought when he was searching or curious. I believe it is published by UU but I will have to check again.

Isn't that a song: I'm a twit, you're a twit, everyone's a twit, twit.

It seems everyone twitters today but Usold folque ... hoo dah th'unque first ...

UU is a delicious drink from America. It's available in chocolate, strawberry, lite chocolate, and double fudge.

Actually, it's origins were not in America and go back as far as the 16th Century. Only it's American origins are American and go back to the mid-19th Century but it started in Europe. It evolved into what it is due to some hard struggles. The founder of the Red Cross was unitarian. They were also highly active (along with Baptists and Methodists) in the abolitionist movement. They're not Baskin Robbins. If it weren't for the current de-emphasis, imo, of aknowledging and sharing the teachings of Jesus and shying away from aknowledging Jesus as a central figure and motivator of their church, and call to inclusiveness, I would probably be Unitarian Universalist. Their statements of faith fit well with many of my own beliefs and they have my respect.

http://www.uua.org/beliefs/history/151249.shtml

So there is no old or modern day physical connection to the UCC.

There is an old one. Of course, they both have Christian roots. The UU's and UCC's histories are different. I don't have extensive knowledge. You should ask Mendalla as he's a UU member. As far as dialogue between the two today, I don't know about it if there is.

Kimmio's made a good start on explaining UU'ism and if you search the board, you can find other threads where I've held forth on the subject (mostly from back when I first joined).

Unitarian Universalism is a North American religious body created by the merger of two earlier groups, the American Unitarian Association and the Universalist Church of America. The AUA was rooted in the Christian idea of unitarianism; that God was One, not Three. The UCA was rooted in the idea of universalism; that God gives his saving Grace to all, not just an Elect or those who believe certain right "beliefs". Both theologies existed in Christianity for centuries and still exist in Christianity (there is, for instance, a Christian Universalist Association).

However, in these two bodies, these liberal theologies evolved to the point where views and ideas from other traditions and philosophies were accepted and Christianity became part of the tradition rather than the focus. The basis of faith shifted from creeds and the Bible to the UU principles and sources (which Kimmio linked above). There are Unitarian groups in other countries, but these are not generally associated with Universalism as happened here. For instance, The Unitarians and Free Christians in the UK are the corresponding group there.

One can be a Christian and be UU. I've known Christian UUs. One Christian UU minister of my acquaintance even jumped to the United Church. However, one need not be a Christian to be a UU. There are secular humanist UUs, Buddhist UUs, pagan UUs, and people who are just generally UU without orienting to a specific source(s).

Kimmio linked our principles and sources in her first post on the subject. We do not have creeds, doctrines, or even a set scripture. Instead, we follow a set of guiding Principles that define how we live, work and explore our spiritual paths together and a set of Sources that define where our tradition has drawn from and where we as individual UUs draw from.

My own fellowship is rooted in the period after WWII when many Unitarian churches were founded by humanists (religious and secular) seeking a church or church-like experience. They wanted a church that fit with their humanism so many were lay-led and services, at least at mine, tended more towards a lecture and discussion format than a traditional worship service. There has, not surprisingly, been some conflict as younger UUs like myself lean away from this humanist orientation back towards something more "spiritual" (though not necessarily back to Christianity). This has led, for instance, to making the services more of a traditional worship service by eliminating the discussion and bringing in more prayer/meditation, singing, etc.

Older churches, esp. in the US, may be more Christian or at least more like a traditional church. There are also UU churches dominated by other traditions like Buddhism or paganism, though these are rarer.

As for connections to the UCCan, we work together on some social causes and some UU and UCCan churches are part of ecumenical groups working on various local issues. However, there is no formal association or even historical connetion between the two churches (even if some suggest that the more extreme liberal elements in the UCCan, like Gretta Vosper, could be moving towards a more UU-like approach to faith).

Personally, I grew up in the UCCan (immersed in it, even) and only formally became UU around a decade ago though I flirted with UU'ism for a decade or so before that after learning about its existence through a friend of my wife. However, as a fairly spiritual UU who has never completely abandoned the Bible or some of the core teachings of Christianity (though I do not call myself Christian or even UU Christian), I am still reasonably comfortable in a liberal Christian church like the UCCan.

Mendalla