graeme's picture

graeme

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Did any church pray for the bombers?

As the news came in of the Boston bombing, and as I now hear the over-the-top reporting on it, I've wondered...

1. Did any church pray for victims of the bombers?

2. Did any church pray for the hundreds of thousands (millions, really, but I won't argue) that our side has murdered, tortured, orphaned?

3. Did any church pray for the bombers?

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Rev. Steven Davis's picture

Rev. Steven Davis

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Repeatedly over the course of the last week at various church groups, etc., up to Sunday the answer to all 3 questions in my case at least is "Yes."

Alex's picture

Alex

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In Boston, none of the mosques prayed for the bombers during Friday prayers, howevr neither did they pray for the victims or the police as all the mosques cancelled Friday's prayer services  due to threats of violence against muslims.

 

 

 

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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The isolation of mon ...

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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It is a singular discontinuity ... but whodah thought in a world that desires knowledge  disposed of (disposable community) ...

 

L'uv 's like that a mire metaphor ... in a dimenssion of 8 ... hate?

 

Real persona can't deal with metaphor and satire in a dimension prepositioned to dispicable actions to teach those beyond how not to do it ... and thus emotions were un-dunne as ochre'd ... mire metaphors?

InannaWhimsey's picture

InannaWhimsey

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graeme,

 

1 & 3:  i gave you a link towards finding out for yourself in that direction :3

 

how did one find out, typically?

 

news

 

what is news?  bad for you and and abberrant :3

 

now how one finds out is through the internet -- decentralized experience :3

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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Perpetrators get little sympathy, although they often need it the most.

 

airclean33's picture

airclean33

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I myself think it sad, that two young men. Some how, had there minds sett so far off right. That they could go out a kill the innocent. No matter what faith they had , or didn't.    In the land they lived in, It seemed they had so much brightness ahead. Now there choice has led to darkness and pain. Not just to them . But so many others.It is not even over yet.If the American Goverment finds another group, was behind  this . Many more may die.

revjohn's picture

revjohn

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Hi graeme,

 

graeme wrote:

1. Did any church pray for victims of the bombers?

2. Did any church pray for the hundreds of thousands (millions, really, but I won't argue) that our side has murdered, tortured, orphaned?

3. Did any church pray for the bombers?

 

In our great pastoral prayers we pray for the victims of violence and injustice (That covers 1 and 2).  In our great pastoral prayer and our prayer of confession we pray for those we have made victims through our violence and our injustice (that would cover 3).

 

Corporate prayer can be a tricky thing.  Not everybody is on the same page with respect to forgiving others or asking for forgiveness for themselves so we try not to politicize our prayers with the cause of the day.

 

That said, on certain days we let others worry about how politicized the prayers are and if they care to complain about it I'll listen.

 

 A few weeks ago when discussing the issue of justice I discussed the public reaction to the verdict in the Kachkar trial and how that reflected more of a desire for vengeance than it did justice.  Had a great talk with a senior OPP officer who once partnered with Sgt Russell who was killed when Kachkar attacked him with a stolen snowplow.

 

We prayed for everyone invovled because it is a tragedy and not one where there are winners or losers.  Just like the violence surrounding the Marathon bombings.  No winners, just a lot of trauma.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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 Decentralized Inter-Net??????????

 

Can something "out there" be internal, with out some sense of reversion? This sounds like a mental device meant to avoid mortal detection!

 

In witch case, is mental bewitching as something that's out there like a wild female (fey, frivolous, when set Luce) genre that's gonna getcha goomie?

 

Could lead to much patois and considerable shape shifting of the communication between mortal and the infinite portion of psyche ... that which seems to have no end to last word phenomenon (Gospel of John21:25) That's as metaphorical as I can grasp in an idealism that's right out of here ... like, but not as God.

 

Now I believe that God exists here in a dispicable form, collectively ... there is some lack of cultivation of that degree of God. The beta form of God is out of here and only pops in from time to time as chi sees intelligent, and like Jeanvaljean ... can see a way out (usually down a notch, allowing for sublimation; isn't that kohl?). Some people that hold god up as anger and hate, leading to fear ... are just pissed because their incident with real L'uv left "eme" due to anon-chi-vel-roué's behaviour. This leads to complexity, and corruption of the ancient words and red-action, bloody odd when seen from beyond what centralized ... that which we don't know, or the anonymous (anon-a'mos) side of the soul; a spiritual essence that absent (like a hole in space) or otherwise an abstract idiom that you can create to, from, over, beneath and all about it as simulated word (mere thought) then communication would be permissible between warring parts and the two harfs of the mind would fuse and the old parts wouldn't be ... that's how they aren't centre'd ... thus dispersed cede ... onan-ism of abstract material that must be collected as hues, shades or other shadows ... profound humours?

 

It is a metaphor in a mental, or soul full androgyny.  But if the soul is shunned ... become an outlander; it might as well be a gypsy rover that few would accept as below the cast norm ... that's just another horizon as seen from the other side when you creep up on it ...

 

This is sometimes called conjugate behaviour but hoo dah th'unque that one out of deep inter-sti-scies? Such things are said to be necessarily heard to get the full impact ... but sometimes word has to be pondered as it it is not dull, shallow, spatial, insufficient, or out-therebeyond the face of what we can see ... in Ur beauty ... a dark metaphor? Thus the mental powers rest much of the time ... until becoming un somnolent because of some strange spark in the night or other bump!

 

Ever experience CopperPlate ... there's a hard word with a shine ... miss'd that dijah?

graeme's picture

graeme

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It's good to hear that there was some breadth to the prayers.

I'm not sure that one can de-politicize a prayer There was nothing depoliticized about Jesus. And I don't see how one can de-politicize loving one's enemies.

.I understand the problem that some (many) parishioners would be offended at intcluding the perpetrators. And I certainly wouldn't suggest forcing it on them. Yet this is a problem the churches have to deal with.

I asked it because I have never heard a prayer in any church for any perps. Nor have I ever heard a prayer for the Guatemalans, Vietamese, Iraqis, etc. slaughtered by the US.

I really don't think an all-purpose prayer meets the purpose. But I also know one cannot burst this out to the congregation without some preparation.

carolla's picture

carolla

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Our church used the prayer from the UCC website; there was also comment in the sermon re atrocities tragic events of the week - not just in Boston but worldwide. 

Rev. Steven Davis's picture

Rev. Steven Davis

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I will confess that in response to #2 my prayers with the congregation over the past week were not specifically for "Guatemalans," etc.  "slaughtered by the US. To be honest that's more or less a practical matter. To name all the countries or communities where innocent civilians have been killed by the US (or "our side" in particular) would unfortunately lead to a very long - a VERY LONG - prayer. So that portion of my prayers over the past week has been more generic, along the lines of "for those who have been affected by violence committed by anyone."

revjohn's picture

revjohn

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Hi graeme,

 

graeme wrote:

I'm not sure that one can de-politicize a prayer

 

Sure one can.

 

A prayer for the Guatemalans slaughtered by the US is a politicized prayer.

 

A prayer for murdered innocents is a universal prayer and its applicability is limited only by the mind of the individual offering it up.  Does it exclude Guatemalans slaughtered by the US?  No.  It includes them,  It also includes Guatemalans slain by any of their other neighbours including themselves.

 

graeme wrote:

There was nothing depoliticized about Jesus. And I don't see how one can de-politicize loving one's enemies.

 

One doesn't need to name one's enemies to love them.

 

graeme wrote:

.I understand the problem that some (many) parishioners would be offended at intcluding the perpetrators. And I certainly wouldn't suggest forcing it on them. Yet this is a problem the churches have to deal with.

 

Which is why not specifically naming perpetrators allows prayer to address the offending behaviour without having to get into who precisely is the offender.

 

graeme wrote:

I really don't think an all-purpose prayer meets the purpose. But I also know one cannot burst this out to the congregation without some preparation.

 

Perhaps not.  What is the purpose being met?  We have prayers of intercession (where we pray for those in need) we have prayers of confession (where we acknowledge our guilt) but no prayers of condemnation (where we point accusatory fingers through prayer).

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

graeme's picture

graeme

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Sorry. There can't be any dodging the bullet. If y ou are leading prayer for innocent victims of violence, you cannot leave it up to your congregation to decide exactly what that means. And if you don't name names, most people are not even going to think of what this prayer actually requires of us. You might as well have a prayer to denounce evil in general.

Nazi Germany was a Christian country. I doubt very much whether any clergyman there named the Jews as victims. Nor can I imagine that any significant number in the congregation would assume that Jew were included among the victims.

Us humans simply don't think that way. In North America, the word terrorist, for almost everyone, means Moslem. I cannot imagine any significant number of clergy use if to mean the American forces that killed innocent people by the million in Vietnam, half a million in the saturation bombing of helpless Cambodian cities, or the more than a million Iraqis who were killed.

Our side, by definition, is good. The other side, by definition, is evil. I'm not suggesting the church tackle that head on in prayer - because I know that wouldn't work. But there is a problem there that has to be tackled.

What's going on now in the middle east and africa is a brutal attempt to re-conquer the old, western empire. That's why the French are in Mali, and the Americans represented in every country in all of Africa. It's happening to plunder the continent once more as Congo has always been plundered.

I don't think Jesus would have mumbled an ambiguous prayer,and left people to decide for themselves what he was talking about.

Religion, in large measure, is about how we behave toward each other. So is politics. We can, and should, prevent any church from forcing its politics on others. But we owe it to ourselves and our faith to interpret what we are watching in a Christian manner.

 

Rev. Steven Davis's picture

Rev. Steven Davis

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Who we pray for is only a part of the life of the church. You're assuming that the congregation is given no context to understand what is meant by praying in general terms for victims of violence. Your assumption is correct in some cases; incorrect in other cases. But do you really think we should stand up in the pastoral prayer and go on for - God knows how long - to list every single group that is experiencing violence anywhere. Really? Can't agree with you on that.

revjohn's picture

revjohn

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Hi graeme,

 

graeme wrote:

If you are leading prayer for innocent victims of violence, you cannot leave it up to your congregation to decide exactly what that means.

 

I don't leave it up to the congregation to decide exactly what that means.  I leave it up to the congregation to decide who that means.  I am not telling them who they must pray for and why.

 

Each member will contextualize their personal prayers as their experience allows during the prayers of intercession.  Some will pray for one situation while others pray for another.

 

graeme wrote:

And if you don't name names, most people are not even going to think of what this prayer actually requires of us.

 

I disagree. 

 

Prayers for the hungry can and do motivate individuals to address hunger.  Prayers for Joe who is hungry may or may not motivate anyone to help Joe.  Not to mention Joe might not appreciate the figurative finger pointing.

 

graeme wrote:

You might as well have a prayer to denounce evil in general.

 

Prayer of confession routinely does that.  Particularly the evil we do or permit through inaction.

 

graeme wrote:

Nazi Germany was a Christian country. I doubt very much whether any clergyman there named the Jews as victims.

 

As true as that may be it doesn't prove that the Jews were not thought of as victims at least by some.  Given that the majority of the world did not evidence much sympathy for European Jewry it is likely that many did not look upon the Jews as innocent victims.

 

Would naming the Jews as victims prevented the holocaust?  I don't know that it would have.

 

graeme wrote:

Nor can I imagine that any significant number in the congregation would assume that Jew were included among the victims.

 

Because they were not named as victims or because few believed that Jews were innocent?

 

graeme wrote:

I cannot imagine any significant number of clergy use if to mean the American forces that killed innocent people by the million in Vietnam, half a million in the saturation bombing of helpless Cambodian cities, or the more than a million Iraqis who were killed.

 

Failure of imagination aside.  I suspect that you are right.  Most American clergy wouldn't likely think of American involvement in Vietnam as terrorism.  That said, I think that the tragedies of Vietnam, particularly those prosecuted by the Americans are elements of history that no longer hidden

 

I am not aware of how my American colleagues addressed or are addressing Iraq and that mess.  I don't know of any Canadain colleagues who have described the war in Iraq as necessary, justifiable, or moral.  Do we refer to it as terrorism?  Some do.

 

graeme wrote:

Our side, by definition, is good.

 

That would probably depend upon the theology one holds to as much as it would the generation one belongs to.  Our prayers of confession, properly understood indicate that we are more of a problem than any they might be.

 

graeme wrote:

The other side, by definition, is evil.

 

Again I think that is a product of a certain theology and a certain generation.  And again in the prayers of confession it is about the evil we do not the evil they do.

 

graeme wrote:

I'm not suggesting the church tackle that head on in prayer - because I know that wouldn't work. But there is a problem there that has to be tackled.

 

I submit that it is being tackled already in our prayers.  Intercession is for those that need it.  Confession is for what we have done or failed to do.

 

graeme wrote:

I don't think Jesus would have mumbled an ambiguous prayer,and left people to decide for themselves what he was talking about.

 

"Our Father who art in heaven hallowed by your name.  Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." 

 

While Jesus is not ambiguous about whose kingdom should triumph he doesn't apparently feel the need to specifically list the kingdoms he thinks should be trumped.  If they are paying attention to the prayer they would know that they are at best second fiddle.

 

graeme wrote:

Religion, in large measure, is about how we behave toward each other. So is politics.

 

Agreed.

 

graeme wrote:

We can, and should, prevent any church from forcing its politics on others.

 

And yet you want names named.  It isn't enough that we pray for an end to all violence the prayer is ineffective unless we point the finger and say and by violence we mean . . .

 

graeme wrote:

But we owe it to ourselves and our faith to interpret what we are watching in a Christian manner.

 

Fair enough.  Can we do that without giving the appearance of keeping score?  Because when we resort to scorekeeping we start to define who is good and who is evil (ignoring that all are a mix of both) and then we are back to we and they.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

InannaWhimsey's picture

InannaWhimsey

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Rev. Steven Davis wrote:

But do you really think we should stand up in the pastoral prayer and go on for - God knows how long - to list every single group that is experiencing violence anywhere. Really? Can't agree with you on that.

 

How aboot the idea of, taking graeme's idears above, and not pray for everyone but, say, one Sunday pray for Guatemala, another session pray for those lost in residential schools, etc?

 

The sermon each time might then be hooked into teaching background on each one...

 

That might just encourage more youngins to come to your church and make your church more relevant (taking the notion that cause of UCC's death is youth regarding UCC to be irrelevant)?

graeme's picture

graeme

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I'm afraid even that wouldn't be enough. We live in a barrage of propaganda. The result is that most people cannot conceive the evils of terrorism being something we are responsible for in any way. The word terrorism, in almost all cases, is taken to mean Muslims.

We don't support terrorist wars? We didn't have chaplains in Afghanistan? We didn't have one who was quoted as telling the troops they were doing an important job?

The reality is that most people will pray for victims of war as meaning those on our side.

We are entering an extraordinarily dangerous and destructive period, much of it because of the stunning greed of our economic leaders, and the deliberate cultivation of fear and hatred by our political leaders and our news media.

Even our little Harper plays the game. His treatment of native peoples,for example, is not the minor squabble that most news media have treated it as. It is a well planned scheme to destroy native peoples as communities of any sort, to abandon all our oblgations to them, and to open up their land to undcontrolled exploitation.

The US is quite clearly determined on military domination of the world to benefit American and some western business at the cost of everybody else - including those of us who live in north America.

American Imperialism, like British and French and Spanish and every other imperialism before it is based on the belief that other peoples are inferior, and must accept being enslaved, exploited, starved. The word Moslem commonly means terror because of the unspoken assumption that Moslems are morally inferior to us. (I well remember the experience, many years ago, of going through the letters of a pre-WW1, congregational moderator. roughly, the words were "Hurrah for the king. Hurrah for brave men to dare to go abroad, adding here and there more bits to the glory of our Empire.")

J.S.Woodsworth was struck by the sight of the opening of parliament with prominent clergymen present to socialize with the holders of economic, military, and political power in Canada. And he thought it damned unhealthy.

In our time, the church is simply a spectator as we move through a period that has become extraordinarily brutal, and in defiance of anything that could be called a  moral principle.

I don't think any church should join in the insanity (though some have -  notably in the US and in the officer corps of the US army.). But nor do i think they can simply stand around clutching their gowns clear of the dirt.

We live in a world that is a denial of almost any religious principles I have ever heard of. I'm not sure how we deal with that. But I'm quite sure we cannot simply ignore it.

InannaWhimsey's picture

InannaWhimsey

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graeme,

 

i've noticed other pretty interesting investigations into the boston bombing; suspicious FBI activity, suspicious shenannigans regarding how the brothers have been treated by various countries and spy agencies...

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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All inclusiveness of all violent crimes into a nonentity ... like a needle or burr in a haystack ... unless you're the one to encounter it! What's the chance eh? Don't yah love quantum calculations ... a field of of it's own like soma-tick winds ... a body of th'aughts? Nothing really; thin veil! As soul ID's just another void ... and that produced there as wordy knowledge is just so much crap ... creating God-fear in the sense mortal don't wish to learn anything. Biblically speaking knowledge is evil right ... so much for science, observation and light to a blind sole ... some inducement required to get over the inhibition to thought ... a mound of emotions in the way?

 

Gotta be another side to this myth; the missing part as need'n! Thank god(s) for Pall Harvey ... he appeared to see the bumps in the night ... yup twas Ur ... an Ephraim of genre ... and the myth goes on poe'tic Allie, a mystery for people don't wish to know anything. Except for that Prodigal Question: " My child (Mac; son, light of the eye, leader of my life, chief, etc) what did yah learn out there?"

 

Don't follow the book; it's been redacted ... altered, or corrupted ... as good description to those that wouldn't believe word could evolve! Good grief Charlie Brown ... the dunne deal in Lucie, a thinking frame! Like pede at his desk, but this one has a mind, a space to store intelligence as given? It is a subversive process of mindless ness on one part ... it is difficult to unravel though once woven ... for the force field is anonymous to mortals! Like a soul, full of distasteful crap about the indeterminate self ... odd thing indeed!

 

Does this induce a concept of inside dimensions (contemplation?) aÐ'm? Could be a curse or a blessing depending on your attitude (humour) towards th'aught ... like a bo's-UNE near nothing? Such is a complex nu'Ron (might be a synaptic gapë) dark, maas-less and without volume ... an alien source to say least! Between Ir and Uv ... two dark forces that support the observable? Two mad Q'lues (that's phi in Classic Expression) or just crazy icons of abstract pares/pairs/paris as indeterminate as mnemonic ... go fig-UR the Lot ... the hole (w)thing? Like a black smear on the page ... despised by Caesars and King Jaimes heis elf ... mostly illiterate I learn!

 

But then if you didn't read into history ... what would you know of the subtle sides? They's the Shadow bi the way ... some rove'n required ...

 

Is the devil in the details, the odds ... or is that god's far side? Consider it sublime humour, as the thinking part is on our hateful world that idealizes conflict, fear anger and the attached character ... h-8 ... you can't say it for that would indicate a cynic and many ministers say that cynicism is evil. Leaves nothing to steer the mule ... why Webster defined intellect as out-a-here and we accept that without question ...

 

The needle'n must be sublime ... and satyrs evolves as Shadow ... knowing all ...

 

Is myth appreciated today? Not likely ... we even forget how to interpret it individually and share perspectives ... a good limiting power ... and so ergos ... and egos without the "g" that's gammos ... ID's dark and abstract ... shimmer'n or sometimes chimerii! Can get yah gommie dupe if you can't process clearly ... assists in the not Gnoe'n field!

 

Consider soul an imaginary power in bulk ... but quite thin like lace and arse Niche ... plum cleavage? Perhaps justa pipers butte in the wind ... lonely daemon ... mire Shadow of the former's elf?

graeme's picture

graeme

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The type of bomb they used combined explosive with metal fragrments. It is designed to maim large numbers of people over a very wide area. Bombs of that type have been dropped almost 300 million times by the US airforce.

They are used as part of a package called a cluster bomb. Each cluster bomb contains hundreds of bomblets, each designed on the principles as the Boston bomb. to maim as many as possible and, of course, to be quite indiscriminate in who they kill or maim - just like the one in Boston.

Bomblets can lie dormant for years before exploding as, for example, when a child tries to play with one. In Laos, the Red Cross reports deaths by such bombs to have been some 10,000 - for years after the bombing - and they are still happening. There are also millions of these bomblets that are still unexploded lying around Iraq and Afghanistan.

They are so dangerous and so indiscriminate in their killing that over a hundred nations have signed an agreement no to use them. They US refused to sign.

So - who's the terrorist?

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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Is that scary or sacred ... saac red ... oh Ba'aL's; the power is afraid of backing away form the power of bullying!

 

Thus they can't see they're into it right up to ... o'well don't say that ...

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