As I see it, the Biblical Satan starts out as the "Loyal Official Opposition" to God.  Just another servant, with a different job.

 

Maybe you're right, re: how the character evolved.

 

Before the Babylonian exile, the Jews had no concept of a Satan in the sense that most orthodox Christians today might envision Satan or the Devil. That is the reason that verses such as Isaiah 45:7 and 1 Sam 16:15 attribute both good and evil to YHWH. I have excluded Lucifer because those verses in Isaiah are in obvious reference to an earthly king with an immense ego. During the Babylonian exile the Jews were exposed to and strongly influenced by the Zoroastrian religion. This faith envisioned a constant cosmic battle between a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a near divine force of evil (Ahrulman). The Jews were easily able to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. It let YHWH off the hook for evil. They took the angel ha'shaitan from the mythology of Job and cast him/her/it into the role of Satan as the personification of evil. It was a far more satisfactory explanation for the presence of and problem of evil in the world. So it all depends whether you are looking at pre-exilic scripture or post-exilic. This means that the talking snake in the Genesis mythology was just a common garden variety talking snake (pun intended). It is also worth knowing that the concept of demons or devils along with the notion of hell proceeds out of this same source. The connection with Zoroastrianism extends into the New Testament with the story of the magi (Zoroastrian priests) coming to pay homage to the infant Jesus and also to the person of Simon Magus as found in Acts.

 

To answer the specific question, "I do not believe in Satan as a real, living personification of pure evil. To me, Satan serves as a convenient metaphor of evil, a symbol and no more."

 

In Roman belief systems a thinking man is evil!  Does that assist understanding?

 

Then too much of God's and Furies; and too much thinking can make Aman unbalanced and cause a rift ... rapture of the bipolar psyche? Is this just story or the state of social mind ... distraught?

 

Thus we arrive at pathelogical and psychopathIC with sic pellen ... for man did not wish to know the underlying sole entity ... man would rather fight it that have a chat ... too much like intercourse and we know that to be evil ... according to religion it appears. How do religious folks replicate themselves so profusely ... asexual screw ups? It's enough to blow common thinking rite away ...

 

Winds of Gods are ruagh ... one must get across ... de rivah is stormy ... but the Levite floats all thoughts as a mire bubble ... look at earth in space ... who carries Ur? Ah the power within ... earth quakin or as JJ said finë a quaq'n codè Scie ... codisis ... bo'ques alight the Shadow!

 

Then wadi was always an ancient symbol of the medium of soul/mind/psyche ... but one has to know the metaphor as Canan/Echo/Big Bang/ Egos as a blossoming in alien dimension ... another' sole ... travel in that person's boots a while ... it's dark in there where you put the pedantry (old tongue for foot of reason, what many stumble over for too much emotion in singular dimension) ... emotions must be divined to find th'eo) place to bury th'aught?

 

Did you ever notice how much real people fear the mind and the unknown ... they must be equitable, or something you can leave behind in a state of emotions ... the corrolary holding true ... the emotions support thought ... in the other dimesnion ... other side of thy's Torah ... deep into the tome as is ...

 

Hi Ichthys

 

I believe in Satan and had quite the experience in my own house with some kind of identity which brought me to God in the first place . I never believed in  that kind of stuff until then ---Satan's job is to keep us away from God's word The Bible because if we know who we are in Christ then Satan has no access into our lives . If you believe in the positive then you believe in the negative . We can call it anything we want ---Faith or Fear ---Positive or Negative ---Good or Evil one will repel the other .

 

The Bible warns us of Satan so just because we don't believe in Satan it won't keep us save from negative attacks in our lives . We are in a spiritual warfare every day ---it is a battle of the mind and God tells us to put our armor on to protect us

 

Ephesians 6 ---10-18

 

The Armor of God

 ¹⁰ Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. ¹¹ Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. ¹² For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. ¹³ Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. ¹⁴ Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, ¹⁵ and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. ¹⁶ In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. ¹⁷ Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

 

Our choice to believe it or not ---But if we don't believe that doesn't mean that it won't effect us  .

 

Blessings

 

 

Hi unsafe

I've often read that there are good and evil spirits around us although we can't see them. Do you think that's true?  I know people who say a prayer of protection before using the computer.

I read some psychic material years ago in which a famous psychic, Arthur  Ford  said the spirits of alcoholics hover about in bars trying to get a drink or cigs. They don't know they are dead or some such. That would be a kind of hell?

 

I don't know the truth about any of this. Here's writings of Arthur Ford.

 

 

 

 

yes, i believe satan and his cohorts exist, in my teen yrs I had a few experiences with him, they are still vivid in my mind, I can draw pictures, difference is today I am a Christian and the fear of them has left me where as in my teen yrs the problem was so bad, my parents took me  to doctors they though there was something wrong with me.

when I became a Christian and wanted to be baptized in my 40s, it started all over again, well they tried any ways, amazing how they leave so quickly at the name of Jesus

 

So, we get to read all these fear-inducing bits of scripture because your toaster caught fire?

unsafe

Quote from the link above - Arthur Ford

 

People who die as an alcoholic can hover around people on Earth who drink too much, lusting after the pleasures of alcoholism yet unable to break the bond of habit which bound them to their physical bodies. The same with heavy smokers or drug users, there or here, or the sex maniacs who take advantage of others to appease the bodily craving for intercourse. This is a very important lesson which we learn on this side. To escape the perpetual cycle of rebirth into physical form, we must erase the ties, the shackles which bind us to satiation of the physical body. So try to lick the bad habits while on Earth. It is easier by far than to come unloose from them on Earth. Those who neither drink nor smoke nor use drugs nor lust after sex will be free of those shackles on the other side.

It is easier while in physical form to break those shackles than it is to undo them on the other side, where no temptations are put in our way. Thus, there is no reward for behaving correctly here in spirit, because there is nothing to tempt us otherwise. The hard school is in the physical one, and there it is there that we must meet and overcome the temptations.

 

G. Ritchie NDE

http://www.near-death.com/ritchie.html

 

[Note: The above example of drug addict's afterlife experience is strikingly similar to what George Ritchie observed during his near-death experience. Although Ritchie's experience occurred in the 1940's, it was not published until the mid-1980's. This was well after Ruth Montgomery published the above account. Again, the similarities of both of these accounts is such that it goes beyond coincidence. To my mind, they both affirm the truth of these similarly described experiences.]

 

 

I like the title,"Prince of the Power of the Air" . It doesn't give evil a corporal body, just the potential to influence.

Ephesians 2:2

 

that is true, also satan is not a name, its actually a title , it means accuser in Hebrew , in satanisim they worship lucifer who they believe is satan, the bright morning  star, satanists believe there illumination of knowledge comes from satan who they believe is the true god, in essence, satanisim is an ideology of the ego self, which was also the fall of satan in the bible

Modern day Satanism was for the most part invented by Alliester Crawley in the mid-19th century.

 

Hi stardust   This quote says it all ---People who die as an alcoholic can hover around people on Earth who drink too much, lusting after the pleasures of alcoholism yet unable to break the bond of habit which bound them to their physical bodies. 

 

I don't know about the first part where they hover around people ---but we are in bondage to our addiction ---it controls us and is part of Satan's strategy . Jealousy and lust are the most powerful weapons Satan uses to lure us into seduction . He job is to kill --steal and destroy us humans . Every sin Satan can lure us into has consequences . The love of  Money is Satan's anointing in this world and money does a good job of causing major problems for us humans just like jealousy and lust we are in bondage and have yokes around our necks . 

 

How do we break this bondage and destroy the yoke ---The Bible says God's anointing will deliver us from this .

 

Isaiah 10 v 27-- 

 

And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

 

If you go to AA for your alcohol addiction ---they give you spiritual guidance.

 

We can believe or not up to us. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, alcoholism is a strategy of Satan.  Either that, or it's a dependence on alcohol that forms from a vicious craving-reward cycle to satisfy a need for an altered state of mind.

 

But yeah, the "Satan" answer is more plausible.

 

unsafe

 I have problems trying to understand the biblical Satan in relation to God . Lots of questions, no answers. It remains a mystery.

 

ask away, or start a thread 

Stardust, the question might benefit from more detail.  Which Satan, and which God?

No, I don't believe in Satan and I think you have a pretty sensible take on it too Ichthys.

 

"... just the potential to influence". I like this idea.

Satan is a scapegoat for most people. We finding it much easier to blame it on the devil than to stand up take on the responsibility and ownership of our own malevolent behaviour. It's just easier that way. Eventually, however, we all have to bear the cross and humility of self introspection. It's our destiny to know ourselves and with that will come the pain self-sacrifice as the greater Self gains control.

 

And as JRT say above, in the Jewish myths there is no such thing as the devil. All things come from God in the Jewish beliefs. In the book of Isaiah it says "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me...I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

 

Satan therefore, according to the Bible, is an agent of the Lord. I actually think that Unsafe has it right above when she says "We can call it anything we want ---Faith or Fear ---Positive or Negative ---Good or Evil..".  I do have to stretch and broaden, however, her concept of "Satan's job" as being "to keep us away from God's word The Bible". I could read that as something more akin to Satan's job as being forever at hand, always tempting us with the outer, materialistic (negative) and form (ephemeral) side of life; and doing all of this in order for us to learn about the inner and spiritual (positive) and Life (eternal) side of our being. Sole identification with the form is the true source of our suffering. This is pretty much what all religions and great philosophies say, in one way or another. It's all about Self-awareness.

 

****

 

In myth Satan is also Saturn, Chronos, the Teacher. . He has been known as the Lord of World, the Ancient of Days, Youth of Eternal Summers and many more names. His is also Father Time, the Grim Reaper, carrying a scythe that is used to cut down even the longest and seemly endless cycles. No one escapes the sycthe of time.

Time keeps us in the hell of the ephemeral. Time keeps us (seemingly) in the eternal hell of cyclic activity. Time keeps us bound to the rock of materialism, where each new day brings us either a brand new hell of "vultures picking at our livers", or the opportunity to break free of the chains of time and become aware of the inner Life within. Prometheus, it should be remembered was chained to this rock for "stealing fire from the gods". He was freed by the great savour Hercules during his 10th labour. Prometheus represents the lower nature of all us, as we all in our own way tied to the rock of the world in our physical, emotional and mental natures. Ponder on this, there more to this story than meets the eye.

 

It's interesting to note also that Hercules had to climb the Mountain of Capricorn, the Goat, in order to descend into hell to accomplish this task. He had to first fight and kill the three headed dog Cerberus, a dog with three great heads, each of which had serpents coiled about them. Saturn's astrological relationship with Capricorn is likely the source of Satan being depicted in modern times with horns and hooves.

 

The heads of the dog are said to symbolize sensation, desire and good intentions, while the serpent tails are said to typify the three worlds of illusions, e.g the physical, the emotional and the mental worlds.

 

 

 

Cerberus? Is that institutionalized dogma?

 

Sort of defines sat'n as something that would draw our minds away from the nominal ...sort of outside the bo'ques ... where the words says that creation stored all the other stories of Light ... an imaginary realm to those that believe in fixations ... idée's of hard nature ... difficult to move in form that requires motivation to do anything ...

 

Smooth as a common snake ... finding the other side of the rock ... shadows? The dark world of the unknown god calling to us ... do you feel that gnawing feeling inside to know what authority doesn't tell us in the world of authoritarian secrets. Oh my god, what we don't know will kill us ... emotional creatures captured in a tun like omega ... just sign! Some say we should let go of all emotional baggage and convert them to clear thought ... Rae Nude sol'? Re dun dance .. or why clear white space doesn't jump without shadows to scare em. The story of the crossing of the soul goes on as disturbed wadis ... that's a vale or vale in other perspectives ... like a hole! In undefined dimensions? Devil of a spot to be confined to without Isis to make cool, clear water Dan ... Aquarius ... that'll push up the Wii green things ... toby chewed upon by Ur .. that's an awkward form of Cow ... like archaic water buffalo with no bull ... non-pontification ... pure myth!

 

If ID doesn't exist (a loving soul) you couldn't have been there ... man without mind? That's beyond imagination ...

 

 

Can Hebrew text smudge a clear page of history ... like wiggles in clear space ... reciprocal image of soul through a true lens? This is what the Sufi  teacher (rabi in another tongue) tells us the Hebrew is ... mire word on the page ... as cretin ... a white lie to get around the darkness of the soul? Didn't someone write a book of that La Belle ... something rings in the back of my brae in ... recesses ... rapture?

 

Man get a grip ...

Arr, arr, arr. Funny.

i don't believe in satan in the literal sense.  i think that ego keeps us from god/good, so  the antichrist and the christ both live within us and it takes us many lifetimes to discover this.  i believe that jesus experienced many of the same struggles we do.  that his time in the desert was one he faced with his own inner conflicts (ego).  his own struggles with who he was and his purpose.  possibly even his doubts.  a lot of my beliefs these days also stem around reincarnation.  in my own mind, it's the only way i can comprehend eternity and love never dying.  what happens when we reach spriitual perfection.  well, heck, i don't know.  i think it would take many lifetimes.  but, that is where i'm at these days with my own spirituality.  there's a quote that i really like:  "how people treat you is their karma, how you react is yours".  we all have choices in life.  to be or not to be.  (sorry, i'm in shakespeare mode today.  they want to dig up his bones to see if he smoked pot?!?! ) anywho.  i try to take lemons and make lemonade... even though it may take me a day or two to find the sugar.  we can create our own heaven or chose to live in our own hell.  it's also why we shouldn't judge.  some of us knowingly hurt and destroy (hitler for example) and some of us do it unknowingly by ignoring it.  "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".  imagine the paradise we could have if we all followed the golden rule.  i also think that john lennon had it right with his song imagine.

 

 

neo: i always enjoy your posts :)

Crowley was certainly against the teachings of his family (Fundamental, literalistic) but

From reading, Magic in Theory and Practice, The Book of Thoth, his ,  Confessions' ,777, private Journals and everything  else he wrote (except his poetry) and most everything  of Israel Regarde, regarding  his 'Golden Dawn' I certainly wouldn't depict his belief in ah...31 Gods...(I don't guarantee the count) Satanism, but it would of course depend on how one defines it.

As for me I don't believe in a devil, even metaphorically. I believe all "Sin" can be traced to it origins, whish is ignorance. (I know of no one  who agrees with me,)

Cheers!

 

 

Is there a "tree of ignorance"?

Hi Ichthys,

 

 

 

Satan makes 47 appearances throughout the Protestant Christian Bible.  11 times in Job's first two chapters.  7 times in the book of Revelation.  5 times in the Gospel According to Mark.  He also makes a few appearances in 1 Chronicles, Zechariah, Matthew, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, both Corinthians, both Thessalonians and 1 Timothy.

 

Hi role changes slightly as the narrative progresses.  In 1 Chronicles Satan is an instigator.  He convinces David to undertake a census of the fighting men of Israel which leads to trouble.  In Job Satan is an accuser with free access to the heavenly realm and the throne of God.  The role of accuser continues in Zechariah.

 

In the Gospel According to Matthew Satan appears as tempter and is described as a stumbling block which perhaps is another reference to Satan as instigator or accuser. These themes are repeated in Mark and Luke although there are some newer variations such as thief, and captor.  It is in the Gospels where we first hear of Satan entering into individuals and taking control of them.

 

The book of Acts once more casts Satan in the role of tempter and corrupter.  In Paul's epistles Satan is a destroyer of flesh and tempter.  It also appears that Satan is limited in scope and power and at least once Paul speaks of handing individuals over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.  I have no idea how that works.

 

It isn't really until the book of Revelation that Satan appears as the antithesis of God.  Revelation grants Satan a throne and it is Revelation where Satan is directly equated by scripture to "that ancient serpent" most likely an allusion to the temptation of Eve by the serpent in the Garden of Eden.

 

 

Denying Satan existance seems to me to be deliberately ignoring a chunk of scripture. I don't think we are forced to accept Satan's existence as being of a nature not recorded in the scriptures.  I certainly don't think elevating the role of Satan within Christian theology is either appropriate or helpful.

 

I don't think that Christianity as a whole gives Satan more than his actual due.  Those elements of Christianity which emphasize the sin of humanity over and against the grace of God tend to present Satan in bolder tones than I think is warranted.

 

 

I would argue that 14 appearances in the Hebrew Scriptures is enough warrant for Satan to make an appearance in the Greek Scriptures.  Scape-goating might be responsible for some of the new roles or responsibilities attributed to Satan I don't think that scape-goating is responsible for the presence of Satan.

 

 

They may not have been aware of the mechanisms of either.  They were not unfamiliar with dreams or dreaming.  The interpretation of dreams, as primitive as it was at the time happened in a worldview which did not find communication from God to be odd.

 

 

I am wondering if we make a similar mistake as our forbears did when we assume that "voices" can only be interpreted in one way?  If it was wrong for them to assume that the voices were only spirits (either holy or unholy) attempting to communicate do we correct the problem by assuming that the voices can only be a deficient brain chemistry?

 

I would always presume the latter I have no way of knowing if that presumption is ever without fault.

 

I have experienced the presence of evil.  I have also had close contact with my son when his Bi-polar disorder was not being treated (a very long and very sad story) I never "felt" him to be evil in the same way the aforementioned presence exuded evil.

 

 

I believe in Satan.  I just don't think he is everything we have made him out to be.  Whether he is actually evil or simply zealous in his role as accuser I don't know.  Sometimes the motivational difference can only be made in the role of the one so motivated to some action.  Those on the receiving end only know what they feel or experience and motivation hardly matters.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Satan certainly does exist in Roman theology, that character was a thinker who would interfere with the Gods ... Furies in Greek tradition of myth. Of course with the Shadow under the tree of myth (ignorance of such things) the roots of the monis tree are hidden from common folk ... one has to be knowledgeable in myth to unravel the enigma ... that's life for those that don't know ...

 

It says in the book (if you go strictly by it) that God spin offs didn't wish to know so they didn't go there with the wandering prodigal. One has to get outside the bounds of the book into the land of myth ... imagination? How did I say that? God isn't that crazy ... or just wandering Levite ... quick grab eM ... the whole's crewed bunch! Fallout of heaven; screwed down instead of up ... there's a Tiye for yah ...

 

Does the devil (sat'n, as Akhenaten, Moses' opposite, dark river or just plague of the Gods) perturb a Roman sort that would sooner do as he likes without recognizance ... Light eh in the dark mire! One must put a lot of stories together if you are to conform to modern psychological theory ... but that's just the philosophy of the mined ... few will go there .... they believe in emotions alone and will not process, anachronism of thought ... like a CPU does in silence ... mere spec of gael*ium imbedded in silly*Ka. Is the mind imbedded in as's Torah ... difficult to change when people take it as truth and not just diversion of the primary work of Jacob, some word for a primal lie like a cretin ... takes a pile of eM pillars of bo'ques or just stacks of the wee devils ... hated by the ignorant who consider learning work ... until they discover the burden is Light ... IC in the dark ... resting prey fully in the Shadow ... ready to pounce on the unaware ... is that devious or what for de nous of the primal phesh trap ... caught another thought and off we go with IT! A whole bunch to be supports in the isles ... that's Maan for yah ... right on the fringe of Mere line ... but hoo dah Gnu'n the AEsaes was just light on the story side with intelligence buried in passions for the tome ... old word for a wormhole ... mind for a bo'que ... but you can't say that to the emotional crew ... on and on it ghost ... story W/I as's Taurus ... seen when goan with a fault ... them's the God's of emotions ... not a clue ...

 

Did you know that Jew was derived from Judah an Oz eM "power" (just metaphor)  of the sun ... gives an isolated man Light to see and Eire to think about it ... that's a kind of recognisance in the Shadow ... if you dare dipping in the move in thing ... hollowed ich? Some refer to ID as a thorn gives your laurals an itchy  and nun knows whether that itch is singular, plural, multiple or all over the place like alternate God hidden in a glowing tree (hallal) or perhaps a Christmas Tree ... did you see that go bi in the chill of past days out of the sun ... like ESS Kimo ... spirits of the north ... scary to a seal occupying the pool under Isis ... odd crew ... subliminal in the flood of words ...

 

Wisdom goes a long ways but nowhere's without some warm emotion to move ID ... that's just a  cold scheme to RIP someone else off ...

 

Jack’s Crew …

Or that mental bunch that’ll lift your thoughts to another level …

 Alter Nate state of mind as one in love, or drug’d …

Through pits, or just into one (drew ID?) …

Mire image of wormhole …

Wiggling space in the dimension of the imaginary field …

Where Abrae ham (Pi-gee’n) placed Sarah when she was out of the picture?

Would that be an external body awareness …

The ephemeral range, or ran Jinn?

The soul let go, and round and round chi goes!

Omi ηΘμς, or a house collapsed into nothing …

An empty state of soul, devoid, of rapture …

Just nothing there …

And some peoples believe not in nothing …

A double negative like Complex Nos.

How could this be but in the state of mind, eclectic (ich-Lexis) …

Where anything is possible …

And Amon can make a Queen in a Maas dupe state of mind!

That’s God, or Love for yah without a par allal …

In Hebrew wiggling space …

That’s average reverence, or respect (fore sur roun din) …

That in Greek belief system requires some question …

As love makes man forget much in the ends involved …

Deux of điem (dah theme, d’ath eM, hynd’s end)!

That might be translated from the Latin tense …

As Theux dedios, not unlike daedelus another tome of the Dead …

The Book of Kells, as light from the other’s ID?

They do say a Book of Love can screw up your thinking …

So a’man is best left as simple, pagan …

In the best position for thinking about all-that-is …

In some cases, one man that believes heh’s bull of the mount …

When such statement requires depths of understanding, t^θom (darkness) …

Below the vision of those on top, well-screwed into the pits of shamayim!

Some dimples overhead, all ah ħem that you can be awed by, night, nieblung, nibl’n …

At least according to Einstein who declared them to be gravitational pits …

Burning themselves into dark holes …

Just to please the demons/demos …

As is in the attitude of spirit of perception of Kings …

But you couldn’t say that truthfully …

Without losing your head due to Red Queen Rule.

Plasma humour, if you can tame the screw for it’s buried meaning!

What do you say to that Jack …

As you rest on the bottom side of the river of all that flows overhead …

Th’aughts, and n’aughts too, de deuce …

As you approach Tonto’s aboriginal form …

Which was the death of somebody …

As begin’n to think of the child inside …

Rae nude thought in another form …

That’s hommoe in Greek temple …

Getting into any sole is difficult in this …

Dim end sigh’n oph the ga Mos …

Powerfully dark even if you can’t face IT …

As Hebrew wiggling on the page …

Struck by the humour of story as cretin …

Gael form of a white lye, limb’s tone grows in the cave like teeth, some up some down, primal imaginary daemons?

yes , it flows from the father of lies, ignorance = darkness 

Then why did God not want Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge? (so to speak) Is ignorance bliss?

Rev. John quote: I believe in Satan.  I just don't think he is everything we have made him out to be.  Whether he is actually evil or simply zealous in his role as accuser I don't know.

 

Is Satan a spirit that enters into people's lives in the same way as we may say God is a spirit who exists within us?  Satan like God can also exist  as the Other or outside of ourselves? Is the spirit of Satan on the WC meaning the spirit that works against belief and the goodness of  God?  I think so. I've been on websites that were very dark with a spirit ( whoever?) asking to take over someone's body. Very creepy. It was a novelty to me but the forum people said to get off the website immediately.

 

Satan....the prince of the powers of the air ......TV, computer, radio etc.?

 

On that forum ( a few years back) we always said a prayer of protection if we were going to discuss the dark side. People were meditating and sometimes it seems if they opened themselves up to unknown spirits that evil would come to them. In meditation there may be a vacuum? They would be very afraid. This means the spirit world is real, there are good and evil spirits amongst us? Other times they would actually see angels, big 9 ft. tall angels. That forum closed but it was very interesting.

 

I surround myself with Light and Love

The Christ Light of Love and the Christ Light of Protection

That only good may come to me and go from me.

I ask for this protection and I accept it.

In the name of Jesus, the Christ.

I know it is done and so it is done

With every beat of my heart.

 

Karita Lourene

 

Then why did God not want Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge?(so to speak) Is ignorance bliss? I only say this because Happy Genius said that sin is caused by ignorance, but I think it's caused by disobedience but then how did a cannibal know that it was wrong to eat other people? And would it be wrong if no one told them it was?

in my human understanding, to know of both good and evil presents a problem in the hands of beings that are not divine, this is easily seen in the world today.  Would God have taught Adam  all knowledge if Adam didn't transgress Gods direct commandment, I don't know but I lean towards yes because the Gospels speak about guidance into all truth. 

 

I believe transgressing God brings death in the physical and Spiritual , which is what happened to the first Man and all his descendants  . But in the 2nd Adam who is Jesus, even though we physically die because God said so to Adam and we know God does not lie, we still get spiritual life and promised a new body

 

one problem i have with the conventional satan is that a god who is all powerful and almighty and to whom all things are possible couldn't figure out something better to do with him than mess around with humans here on earth. 

 

maybe god didn't want us to eat from the tree of knowledge to protect us the same way we want to protect our children.  we don't want them to know hurt and pain and suffering, but all those things are inevitable.  all we can do is to love them, be there to help shoulder the pain and guide them the best we can.  to accept them no matter what.

 

as for the evil you talk about stardust, i do think it's possible to find a dark place.  a place where all hope is lost.  where there is no light at  the end of the tunnel.  could this darkness manifest itself?  i suppose.  just as much as good can i guess.  isn't that what the book the secret eludes to?  i've never read it, but i think that's the idea of it?

 

ignorance means a lack of knowledge, knowledge of what? knowledge of knowledge or knowledge of God  ?

 

Adam knew God, He walked and had a relationship with him so Adam was not ignorant of the Creator, he was ignorant though of all the knowledge  the Creator possess, smees to me the transgression of Adam was one of Trust 

blackbelt

This refers to the biblical God only.

I guess I don't understand how it is that the devil has  so much power and why God couldn't anniliate - sp- the devil ( in Genesis maybe)  if God has all power? God doesn't have all power?  God created the devil if God created everything re the OT? So...good and evil were necessary conditions of life until Satan got the upper hand and took over the earth.....or what...?  Its like Satan beat God at his own game.....leaving God with no control?

 

  Surf on the TV for a whole day and you're very likely to see much more evil than good, this is what I mean, or the movies...the more violence the higher the attendance. We the people or society love evil...lol....I loved all the evil in the Young and the Restless. Good is boring for a whole lot of people . Rev. John would say we're utterly depraved.....Calvinist.....but for the mercy and grace of God.

Yes , the God of the bible is the only God I believe in, so having said that , in actuality satan has no power,that is why he operates through false means. 

let me use a government in office who has over thrown the legal government through false means, like lies through propaganda and force as an example. This false government enjoys all the benefits that a true government would  but is established on false grounds, as generations pass, new generations begin to believe that the current government has true legal rights to be there and willfully accept its authority, until an ambassador of another higher legally true government comes along and sheds light on the current situation and opens up the peoples eyes. the false government now must get rid of this ambassador before its to late , lest the people of his kingdom know the truth .

 

so in essence the only power satan has, is the power we give him, which he establishes through falsehoods. thus he is called the father of lies 

 

 

Thanks for your explanation blackbelt. A false world, a false system and we believe it if we don't know better like young people watching TV sitcoms, soaps, movies etc. and behaving like the stars in them thinking that's cool and the way to be.

Has anyone brought up how Adam could not have known it was wrong to eat the apple, because he only gained that knowledge after eating it?

Hi Azdgari,

 

 

That presupposes that God did not forbid Adam or Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

Genesis 2:  17, the prohibition on eating the fruit of the tree in question proceeds Genesis 3:  6 in which the fruit was eaten.

 

Doing what one has been forbidden to do would be wrong unless it could be proven not to be wrong and the authority issuing the prohibition repealed the prohibition.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

yes, television has been proven over and over , a great avenue into the minds of the young, what better way to indoctrinate the generation of the future. 

You can say that, because you are a post-Adam human.  Going by the rules of the story's context, Adam doesn't have access to the reasoning you just gave.  He could not possibly have known that doing what was forbidden was "wrong", because he did not have knowledge of what "wrong" even meant.

Hi Azdgari,

 

 

Possibly.  I'm pretty confident that there was knowledge about yes and no.

 

Can I eat from this tree?  Yes.

 

Can I eat from this tree?  No.

 

Does Adam understand yes and no to be equal?  I don't think so.  What's more in the temptation Eve clearly states that the tree has been forbidden.  There is understanding of shouldn't whether or not they comprehend rightness from wrongness there is no mistaking the clear "do not eat."

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Is it right or wrong to follow one of God's commands (such as yes/no)?

 

They are indeed neutral, in terms of whether they should be followed, until one attaches a moral value to them.

Hi Azdgari,

 

 

Such as life and death?

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

 

 

The only thing to fear is fear itself.

 

If I were to actually encounter Satan, say, being tried for their crimes, I'd try to save Hir.  Only the winners write the history books.

 

Or if I ever met an entity I could class as Satan, I'd invite Hir to tea.  Imagine the stories Sie has to tell, such experiences.  Maybe engage in some games, like Transformation or Which Historical Figure Am I?  My goodness, Sie could bring back MARK TWAIN!!! :3

Which is more right:  To live, or to die?

Fathers throughout our times have told their children 'If you get behind the wheel of that car and drive over a cliff you will surely die'. And at this point they usually add "you are too young to drive".

The myth of Garden of Eden is exactly that, a myth. It contains truths that to this day guides us with wisdom in our evolution. We cannot (seriously) take it literally and need to try to see under the covers of what this myth really means.

The eating of the Tree of Good and Evil represents the "coming of mind" and the full manifestation of the soul into physical incarnation. The coming of mind is the individualization of the human soul. It's at this point we became a "living souls" in a physical world. This one act of consumption represents the begining of the awareness of good and evil, of positive and negative, and of form and spirit. It represents the danger of responsibility. This individualization marked the time we became truly responsible and accountable for our thoughts, our speech and our actions. The Law of Karma and the Law of Rebirth work hand in hand.

"For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked"
- Genesis 3:5

 

It was this very act of the 'eating of the fruit' that made Adam and Even self-aware. It was this act of 'attachment' to the physical world, for what is more symbolic of attachment than the consuming of something, that started Humanity on a journey that would take millions of years to complete. This act represented the 'fall' from a purely spiritual realm to one where a division occured and part of the soul's energy was consumed in the manifested worlds of mind, emotion and matter. It represents the beginning of a long journey 'back to the garden' where only through the acts of self-sacrifice, self-redemption and self-submission would this cycle of pain cease, at which point we would become at-One with our Source again. Only through detachment can the "curse" of attachment be remedied.

 

In this the light the threat that they will surely die actually did come true in that as souls, Adam and Even represented the beginning of a race of male and females that could not live forever but would rather die. Over and over again, until salvation sets them free.

 

We are told that eventually the Lord God made "coats of skins" and clothed Adam and Eve. Could this not symbolize the layers of matter that we find ourselves in right now? On the lowest layers of our being we are made up of solid matter, liquid matter and gaseous matter. Could these be the three lowest 'skins' of matter, making up the three lowest aspects of who we are?

 

In many myths there is often a pair of serpents coiled around the Tree of Life. In the Bible the serpent is found in the same garden as the Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Life. In the myth of Hercules the serpent is found coiled around a tree in the garden of the Hesperides, protecting the golden apples of wisdom. In almost every myth and religion the serpent or the dragon represents wisdom and knowledge. Why is it that in western religions we regard the serpent as something vile and evil? It is the symbol of positive and negative. The Staff of Hermes, the caduceus of life. It is the sine wave with the line down centre marking out the straight and narrow way between the polar opposites. It is the symbol of life. It is the Ouroboros.

 

 

"Be ye wise as serpents"

I can't help but wonder, if God is all-knowing, why did he place the tree there in the first place?

I doubt that Adam and Eve didn't know what was right and wrong before eating the fruit. I think the fruit was an average fruit and God was testing their ability to choose to not obey God. 

I think that's the thrill behind the whole creation. If God had a perfect world in mind, he would have created one from the beginning. I think Satan is a symbol that represents the concepts that are so essential to our universe: Chaos, chance, choice and sin... everything that acts beyond what God originally intended.

When I think about the story of Jesus going to the desert having these conversations with Satan, I don't think that he literally met a person. I believe Satan in this case represents his human nature. Jesus was human and God. Look at those temptations. They are not of some metaphysical origin, they are human and it is our task to overcome the Id and the Ego.

From my point of view, destroying Satan during the end times refers to destroying those elements (chaos, chance, choice, sin, etc.) and thus restoring the perfect order and harmony of the universe by people choosing freely to trust in God.

 

Does this even make sense? I don't know.

To a Roman religion a thinking man is the devil ... and such a law sticks to the fearful!

 

Is this pure reciprocal thought reflecting in a bare sole? Like a worm caught by the fisherman's hook Ur ... the reverse psychology is upended ...would God use such a thing to teach a coven ended  sole? Perhaps how fabrication started to amuse the god(s) that are mire lye indeterminate.

 

Did Adam learn about the function of the mind in contravening what was wished by gods? Then modern neuroscience tells that the sory is the mind and the corallary holds true in a sort of Black Art ... thinking? That explains the Shadow and the depths all in one ... collectives as tome in stacks! Old book hated by Romans burned eM by the gross ... repeated in history as the thing to do and thus burning books in the recesses of the soul ... where creation hid the real story ... beyond the bode an thing-heh ... just a threshold ... what goes on and on as embarasment for those that didn't wish to know ...

 

really enjoyed your post!

Hi Azdgari,

 

 

We spend more time ensuring our survival than plotting our own demise.  I would argue that ups the value of life significantly.

 

Adam,s tummy must have rumbled otherwise eating served no right purpose.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John