I believe the Holy Spirit transcends time and space. It's at work all over the place. Conscience- conscious, and subconscious. Just as the words contained in a book, ideas inspire new ideas and although they were written in that book they are not really bound there, they keep moving and shaping lives and whole cultures of lives in relationship to one another.

Btw, hi pcchynoweth! Wondercafe.ca is closing at the end of June, so there isn't much activity here. You might be interested in signing up to wondercafe2.ca and moving this discussion over there to get more responses.

Make sure you turn the lights out this weekend Kimmio.

Pcc,
I believe the Great Spirit transcends "time and space" because the former is the Life Spirit which always precedes the form.

 Hi pcchynoweth

I agree with your conclusion and Neo's and Kimmio's.

 

I have an old book somewhere which lists all the Old T. verses about the Holy Spirit from Genesis  onwards. Its a topic that confuses me if  I am  reading  the bible literally. Possibly yourself or someone has the  answers? I have asked before but I'm not sure I was understood.

 

Jesus said He would go away ( his death)  and send the Comforter ( the Holy Spirit). If not the Comforter wouldn't come? So, the Holy Spirit wasn't here before Jesus came...?.... or did God take the Holy Spirit away from the Jews in the Old T. (literal translation)  as a punishment?  The Gentiles didn't have the Holy Spirit before Jesus came?

 

Also where the bible speaks of the spirit of God ( as on the waters) is that the same as the Holy Spirit? 

 

I'm here until June 30th. Its  open house for replies....thanks!

The Holy Spirit - a.k.a. Holy Ghost - a.k.a. Spirit of God - is the third person in the Trinity. He is God and therefore is not restricted by the confines of time and space. The Spirit - while equal to the Father and Son - is subordinate to - and sent forth by - them.

Sounds schizophrenic the way you describe it Jae. He is God yet at the same time He is subordinate to God. How is that exactly?

Sounds like a Vegas act.

 

The person of God the Spirit is subordinate to the persons of God the Father and God the Son. At the same time - God the Spirit is God. 

What was the purpose of the Holy Spirit before people existed?

Does the following (from the book "A Treatise in Cosmic Fire") make any sense to you Jae?


This triple solar system can be described in terms of three aspects, or (as the Christian theology puts it) in terms of three Persons.


ELECTRIC FIRE, or SPIRIT.
1st Person--------------Father. Life. Will. Purpose. Positive energy.


SOLAR FIRE, OR SOUL.
2nd Person-------------Son. Consciousness. Love-Wisdom. Equilibrised energy.


FIRE BY FRICTION, or Body, or Matter.
3rdPerson-------------Holy Spirit. Form. Active Intelligence. Negative energy.

Dcn Jae

 In the Bible Jesus ascended in the flesh to heaven to send the Holy Spirit to earth? Would he have turned into a Spirit on the way? Flesh and blood cannot exist in heaven. What do you suppose the Holy Spirit looked like when Jesus encountered him or it? I'm serious, just some ??'s I wonder about.

To evolve conscious awareness in good conscience?

The holy spirit appears to'me an abstract ... or as defined somewhat incomplete without Q-lues ... thus something additional is coming as an integral?

 

Could this lean towards turning the lights out as an abstract hue? The there are those dark human desires that don't think about the other or the surrounding environment as a braod based belle ... who's out there gathering ... comprehensively ... but hose leaning purely on emotional factors can't comprehend this! Thus it is some what abstract and adds to the dilemma of the 5W/H puzzle for those that believe in not questioning anything, nothing or even everything it that happens to pre-possess god as a place to reside unseen by those that shun many things and non-things (that you could conceive as imaginary of abstract in word ... LOGOS)!

 

And in the beginning was the word ... and it was near nothing and raised dissonance that came to be known as Eris ... some say Eire, some say R's ... that in Cyrillic is an upended "L" as delighted ... a quenched fire as Dan in the desert, looking for a trie at the Shadowlands, or period of abstraction sometimes referred to as O asis, or eve'nI Sis as Egyptian Eve right out of an mythical dimension (or land)?

 

Some groups can't conceive of such places to store thoughts that are unwelcome in church as ð/ðT's or just beyond this differential in time and space as a quotient as raised by diminished IQ in a subtle pathe! Some say path-o'logical as that incident when logos is abstracted ... beside such elaborate explanation accounts for that dark formless void of a god that could see how to screw up a mortal ... and thus subjects are raised (sort of stunned)! Ask Jill Bolt Taylor!

Is being earth bound a choqan event?

 

Do you know what's choqan in Hebrew?

mabey you can post this thread in the new wondecafe2.ca site

 

Time is a measurement containing dimensions of past , present and future, in order for it to exist there must have been a intelegence before it to create it. 

 

The bible very first opening line begins with time 

 

Genesis 1 In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space)  and the earth (matter)

And now you've created the massive problem for yourself of having to explain how, before time and space and matter were created, "God" came on the scene.

 

More than that, you have to explain how you know all this.

 

I think you don't know. I don't claim to know, either. I just think it's far more acceptable to admit what we don't know, than to adopt an answer because it's old or because we want it to be true.

 

 

before anything was Christians belive as i do that God is, He always existed, He is the uncreated Creator. 

 

I do not have to have an explanation of the  explanation 

 

its my belief that Something eternally existed rather than nothing 

God is not limited by space nor time. God is far greater than those things.

Sorry, you do. Otherwise, I can just say, "No, it was Zeus," or, "No, I created the universe 5 minutes ago and planted all your memories and all the things around you to trick you."

 

What you've given us is an explanation, but you've done nothing to defend or support that explanation. Nothing. It's a completely baseless explanation, and it should be treated as such.

 

Further, it's a terrible explanation. You won't allow that the universe has always existed, but you insist your God has. Based on what? An old book that has been wrong before? It sounds similar to other creation myths, so what makes your version correct, and theirs incorrect? What makes any of them plausible? How could we test it? Oh, right, we can't.

 

 

 

Because...you say so? Wonderful. Lots of people say lots of things. By what standard or reason do I accept your claims over any others?

 

And yet you're willing to believe in macro evolution - which has never been duplicated in the lab. Hmm...

 

In your assumption that you think i do have to explain the explanation, makes your logic wrong, for example, if one was to find pottery shards or old arrow heads while excavation took place on mars, it wouldn’t take a rocket scientists to figure out that the artifacts found were create by some pre-existent race,  I do not need to explain the previous race of beings to come to the conclusion that the  artifacts were created 

 

 

 

Not because I say so. Because of what's written in the Bible - the word of God. It is God's love letter to humanity - and through it we can know God truly.

*thumbs up*

Holy Spirit- the immeasurable energy with which ideas are created, and communicated, and move things consciously and subconsciously into being? What is consciousness? I am not talking about the areas that light up on a brain scan. I am talking about immaterial 'mind', not material brain matter. What is the substance of an idea? Does it have substance that is measurable, or is it 'spiritual'? It exists beyond, and transcends/ measurable time and space. I have a thought. I am thinking about a sunset. The sunset is not 'really' here. You can't see the exact vision that I have in my mind. Maybe it's a memory or a dream or a vision in my imagination- and from that I can communicate to you with words, 'spoken', written or illustrated in pictures, what that sunset looks like. It's brilliant, glowing, red and pink and orange. And now you too can imagine it- without seeing it, without measuring it- because it's not really here. But, we know sunsets exist. And the real ones are measurable. I can (if I were really smart) invent something. Before it is produced it is just a potential of what could be. It is a thought. But the thought is the catalyst for it actually someday coming into being. It's the most important 'ingredient' and yet it can't be seen until it is communicated. Without the thought first, then the thought communicated in some way, it could never happen. But what is a thought itself? ...in the beginning, the word was with God and the word was/ is God.

If the fruit of the Holy Spirit is- love, joy, peace, patience, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control- that is the good fruit. In allegorical terms. Most people agree that those are favorable conditions with which to live- then has something gone wrong with our collective consciousness? Is that where 'sin' comes in- and what that actually is. Thoughts coming into being that have the opposite effect? That cause harm? Look around. Then, perhaps the need for forgiveness, 'redemption', renewal. The need for generating good thoughts that produce good fruit? Is that what Jesus meant by 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit'? That there comes a point when, if we ignore for too long the necessity of allowing the Holy Spirit to produce good fruit in good conscience, good ideas producing favorable conditions for life, we pass the point of no return if we're not aware? Materially speaking- look what happens in the world when we allow greed and competition and war (vengeance) to guide our actions.

I have agree with the fundies here Chansen, one cannot help but enter the world of philosophy and imagination when it come to describing the indescribable. From the first moment of Creation, the Big Bang, we've seen energy begat energy, which means energy is never created or destroyed. It only changes form, transferred from one medium to another. Wouldn't it seem plausible, therefore, that the Big Bang itself was the result of an even greater Unknown Cause? Time and space would then be the result of a third factor, an unseen factor.

The initial screw up of the insubstantial ... or otherwise immaterial human mind ... so the eternal would have a place where there's nothing ... and thus the infinite filled nothing with delight of being unreasonable ... and so it was as it appeared ... as being nothing ... from which one could make something that would baffle anything of any substance ... and the mystery grew as a myth!

 

Is that shockingly eclectic?

 

There are some Christians that say they know this inside out or of in-verse proportions as naïvetè about improper intentions about intercourse with a broad-based person of intelligence that was an untouchable psyche ... and few believed such thoughts could exist thus developing a complex or imaginary side to that which really isn't ...and so it passes as unseen!

 

Does anybody study those passages about the unseen in the biblical word? I have doubts no one would go there as God-fearing imposition to LOGOS ... or a word-fearing person of great ambition about not-knowing ... thus it wasn't tobe, but coulda ben if thought about in a different way than a bang up inspace! That inner sensation?

 

I just love these insensible statements that arise in Wondercafe ... gives rheum to stretch the imaginary limits and connect with strange sects ... and allow those of us that are insubstatial to upset their fixed thinking so chaos (citi) can go on in the larger dimensions that are incomprehensible to those that are mortal (thus limited). Einstein was fascinated by the alchemy between limited energies and larger movements ... and thus mental kinesis ... but few understand that as understanding is a subtle thing in human relations ... contempt and conflict is more common than education about alien things ... just too scary and close to terrorizing ... alien things that pop up ... right Jack?

 

Then was Jaqobean fantasies from the dark side (Gabriel) of everything (which's God)? Is that a devilish desire to know things you shouldn't according to religious authority? Hoo's the fixed standard in a realm of floating point decimation? Just another passing phase of the groan or is that de muoning space that calls hoer moaniously ... as an itty bitty microcosm with good reason as chi has a place to put it ... the whetted unknown intelligence as Semitic jelled sensation that may appear insensible to outside pious sects! But Santé Clause knew beta in his stilled state of mental observation ... as the Bishoprick of Myra ... that may be mire'd in word misunderstandings as scrawed in the way of old henscratchings scattered over time, space and the light of the situation ... as laid out by some Sufi Scholar in past times ... thus it went off, so it goes'ð ... dead!

 

You know any dead languages? They pop up right in the midst or pure English as redaction ... perhaps corruption? Is that de evilish conception you can ever comprehend? Get a grip on your's elphe people ... bolster yourself until coming to a halt!

What's a bolster?

 

Some say a fecund knob about which ties are made that make you parts go round and round ... or doesy dough and the kneeding goes on as if bred for thought!

 

The genre is undefined as it should be opposingly balanced ... and the upstanding is buried deteriorating talent that fails eventually ... as yule event when the air is Kohl and someone is expecting a warming trend ... thus the underlying Rueben ... or the Lord of San'witch ... thus it was impressed and passed off as nothing but poor no-graphic illustrations of thinks unssen or otherwise unthunk do to censers that remain silly butt and misunderstood the talent of defined sects of abba'd sects set up for defining a stronger heart ... such makes old people heads spin in a rollickan manna of how the young folk can be embarassed by what's natural in de mire ... seeing oneself screw up if you didn't know?

 

Thus the problem with huge corporate desires ... lesser thoughts are just not there ...