Is that not really a form of abandonment? They may not literally have physically left (though they may be absent a lot), but to all intents and purposes they have let the addiction and the drugs replace the marriage in their lives so they have "left" in that sense. That's how I would frame it given those terms.

 

Mendalla

 

 

Hmm... that doesn't sound quite right to me. If I recall correctly, Moses only said the one about sexual immorality. It was someone else, Paul I believe, who added in the one about abandonment, and then only if a non-Christian spouse leaves a Christian one. That being said, drug abuse is neither adultery nor abandonment and therefore not biblical grounds for divorce. It is an excellent reason for a marital separation, however, until such time that the drug abuser gets treatment and reconciliation between the drug abuser and their spouse can occur.

 

Don.Jae      your quote    That being said, drug abuse is neither adultery nor abandonment and therefore not biblical grounds for divorce.

 

This being said the Bible tells us the we are not to be unequally yoked ---so if the person using drugs is and would be the unbelieving partner ---and the other is  Born Again  this according to scripture is grounds for  Divorce ------

 

 

That's an interesting perspective unsafe. However, I believe that the verse you have quoted is dealing with the case wherein an unbelieving spouse physically departs from their Christian partner. That is to say, actually packs their bags and takes off. Such is not necessarily the case with drug abuse.

Here is a case where The Bible may not be the best guide. To be quite frank, addictions weren't really something that was seen as an issue back then, certainly not in the way that they are now. If the couple can keep the marriage and work together to manage the addiction, then that would be best. However, if that does not happen, I don't think there is a single social worker or psychologist out there worth their salt who would encourage the non-addicted spouse to remain if the addicted spouse refuses to deal with their behaviour and that, in my eyes, trumps relationship advice from 2000 year-old books.

 

Mendalla

 

 

Hi Don.Jae

I agree with what you have said ---but at the bottom it says this -----God has called you to live in peace.

 

How can you live in peace with a drug addict ----strife would prevail ----mental anguish would be in affect ---peace would not happen between the 2 people ------The question then is would God want the 2 to continue in a marriage tha would have no peace t-----

 

 Wise saying -----

 

 

 

Usually the addict is married to the drugs not the spouse, in a sense is that not abandonment of the relationship, addicts become master manipulators and liars, is that not a trust issue?  Usually the victim  of abuse is left to pick up the peace’s all the time while taking all the blame for the addicted spouses addiction .

 

I know a person who for yrs and still in the relationship , one spouse is completely addicted, steels money, does drugs daily, cant hold a job, but because of her Christian convections stays but is on the verge of having a nervous break down. When she spoke to her pastor about leaving and what should she do, the pastors answer to her was

 

Do it for Jesus

 

Really?

 

mendalla, I would agree completly with you 

Hi Blaqckbelt1961--This can be a very hard subject. If we look at some of what GOD said. --

Mar 10:9

What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

This is Christ Jesus The Christ talking.I am a believer that we have to bring it to GOD. GOD will know  what is breaking your Marriage. Remember when you break your marriage you are not alowed to remarried as long as your ex mate lives,Or it is adultery.   GOD Loves you though and I also believe  and understood for many different reasons Love can grow cold.  So He put these little vers to help  . My GOD is a reader of your heart.                       NKJV

 

Pro 10:12

Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins.

In talks with GOD on this ,He said this to me.If what you do is in Love He will know and understand. God Bless brother.---airclean33Gord.

 

Unsafe, I agree with you that there would be great strife if the drug abuser and their spouse were to continue to live together, so long as the former keeps abusing drugs. That is why I would strongly support a marital separation - as I have already said - until after the drug abuser stops abusing, and reconciliation occurs. Rich blessings.

blackbelt,

 

being serious here:  can't you 'talk' to your g_d and ask Him?

 

And if the abuser never stops abusing or keeps relapsing? Because, to be honest, that happens rather often. Effectively, you're keeping the non-using spouse as a prisoner in a marriage that is likely hurting them rather than letting them find a new, more suitable relationship. Better that they end it and move on. Bible or not, cutting your losses is sometimes the best strategy in this kind of situation.

 

Mendalla

 

 

Marriage is for better - or worse. In health - or in sickness. When people get married they are covenanting to remain committed to their spouse. If someone doesn't want that responsibility,  then they shouldn't get married in the first place. 

 

 

^^ There is never any greater good to consider?

 

What do you imagine that greater good to be?

 

but in an abusive relationship, there is no better, often the abused spouse fall into depression, why would a loving God want that ?

 

the well being of the inocient for starters 

The marriage is already disolved when the user 'marries' his addiction.   This is likely to happen whether the two remain in the dwelling or the user leaves or the non-user is forced out for his/her own health and safety.  

 

Once the marriage is over, and a reasonable period of time has past (for mourning, and adjusting), I don't see any reason why the non-user shouldn't receive a legal divorce and be free to love and be loved again.

 

What does the substance abuser need in this situation? How can her/his needs also be met? I've been up close and personal with addiction of various sorts all of my life and one of the best places I've known for people to come to grips with their situation in sanity and safety is Alanon/Alateen.

 

The whole AA model uses a "medical/spiritual" model of addiction that can be way more productive and open to conversation than the artificial good/bad dichotomies set up by labelling people "abusers".

 

As to the subject of divorce, although I'm occasionally tempted to think there are some people who appear not to try very hard to keep a marriage together, as the owner of a legacy of some almost lethal combinations of mental illness and alcoholism, I recognize very deeply that the surface of a marriage often says almost nothing about its substance.

Because of proximity to the drug abuser? That's why I would support marital separation in such a case.

God doesn't want to see anyone depressed - the Godspirit comes to bring joy. God doesn't want to see anyone go through the divorce hardship either. That's why it's vitally important for us to choose our marriage partners wisely.

 

But if you don't allow a divorce and the addict does not clean up and deal with his issues, you are condemning the non-addict to being stuck on a perpetual waiting list with no hope of escaping the situation permanently. In fact, the addict, if they are also an abuser which is often the case, can use the inability to get a divorce as a weapon to control the spouse. Compassion for the non-addict dictates that divorce needs to be an option and anyone in a counselling position, e.g. a minister (and I know you are aiming for that, Jae), who counsels otherwise is being irresponsible unless they have clear knowledge that the addict is cleaning up and is willing to make the effort to save the marriage and, most importantly, that no physical or psychological abuse has occurred. Once abuse is involved, all bets should be off and the only counsel should be to get a divorce and a restraining order.

 

Sorry, Jae, but taking a narrow stance on divorce on Biblical grounds just shows how out of touch the Bible is on some issues.

 

Mendalla

 

Hi Blackbelt -- We are not of the world nor should we think as the world thinks. They live by there own rules and what ever there thoughs are. We however walk with Christ Jesus must think like Christ.  What did Christ say? I do what the Father tells me and only that.Read what GOD has given us in his word The Bible. Speak to Him in prayer. Remember those first words in the marriage vow .To Love an honer, I know it's hard. But we I believe should give every chance we can to Honer are marriage. My advice is talk it over with GOD Brother.--airclean33 Gord.

 

Mendalla i so do agree with you, but seems to me that some use bibical marrage very legalistically with no room for Grace for the victum. 

 

 

Mendalla, isn't that what people are looking for though, when they seek the counsel of a Baptist minister?  If they wanted quality counselling, they would go elsewhere, no?

Hi Mendalla--When you post like this it looks more like your out of touch with GOD.How could you know if GOD was not going to use the other person to help the sick one. Drug addicton is a sickness. Our God is able to fix. Marriage is used very many times to show how GOD treats Israel. Dose He give up on them? Dose it seem to you ,if we are to be like Him . We should give up on others?No one said being married would be no trouble at all did they? You have a good day. -airclean33

I would love to hear from some of the ministers on the site 

Rev John

Rev Steven

 

 

Hi blackbelt1961,

 

 

Just to up the ante it is also said that the only reason Moses made those allowances was because of the hardness of people's hearts.  What allowances does God make for divorce?

 

I believe that the issue of divorce is one where the letter of the law comes into stunning and shocking conflict with the spirit of the law.

 

I would prefer that marriages never ended save for when one partner dies and the other is left alone.

 

That is my preference, circumstances mean I don't always get what I want and sometimes I have to decide what is really important.

 

I think marriage is important.

 

I don't think marriage is so important that it trumps the emotional/spiritual or physical well-being of any individual.

 

So, If one spouse cheats and the other spouse cannot forgive I mourn the death of that marriage.  It is just another layer of grieving, I've already been mourning the near fatal wound which eventually proved to be fatal.

 

So, if one spouse up and leaves the other spouse and does not intend to return I mourn the death of that marriage.  Do I really want to add to that particular spouse's pain and/or humiliation by suggesting that the best they can do is wait however long it takes for their prodigal spouse to come home.

 

So, if one spouse falls into the clutches of any kind of addiction and the other spouse cannot remain supportive I will grieve the death of that marriage.

 

Any spouse in either situations who decides to stay and make a marriage out it I would support.  Any who felt that there was no hope I wouldn't attempt to bully into staying by tossing scripture at them like a weapon.  Nor would I be okay with them being vindictive and trying to hurt the other while they were on their way out of the relationship.

 

I don't believe in easy outs.  Marriage is hard work.

 

So I might not think highly of folk who aren't willing to make that investment.  At the same time the hard work needs to come from both spouses, if one refuses to carry their load it is different than one being unable to do so.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

 

Hi blackbelt1961

 

 

Look at that I was answering even as you asked.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

 

But to ask a person to give up their entire life to someone who is never going to change and never going to get better because they won't acknowledge their illness?You would do that? Even if it was a family member or close friend that was suffering in those circumstances?  I am not talking about an addict who is making a sincere effort at healing, but one who is continuing to suffer and inflict suffering by not doing so. 

 

You can argue that God never abandons anyone but God doesn't have to give give up his ability to love others when God maintains steadfast love for those who do not, and will not, help themselves. God is eternal (or at least that's the Biblical position) and has room for everything. We are not God and I am sure (or hope)  that God (if there is one) is realistic enough to realize that  we cannot always adopt God's attitude when we don't have God's nature and is willing to forgive when we need to do things that may not live up to God's ideal for us.

 

I'm sorry you're struggling. While I'm disappointed that so many people give up on marriage so easily there are cases where it's justified. Only you know if this is such a case but I wish you well either way.

There have been some good answers here. Certainly spousal support can help an addict....if the addict is ultimately willing to accept it and recognize it as support. Unfortunately, in an addicted system (a marriage or family being a system in this context), everyone needs help and support. Often the spouse is as addicted to the addicted spouse as s/he is addicted to the substance of abuse. That is not a healthy situation, and I do not think that is what god intended for a marriage. How do we also support the spouse?

 

Yes, marriage is a contract. A contract requires both parties to be committed. When one party is not committed, or is essentially having an affair with the drug, then what happens to the contract?

 

Sometimes a spouse being "supportive" is actually enabling the addict, and helping them stay in their disease. Separating is often the wake-up call for the addict to get help.

 

When my parents were going through their separation which ultimately ended in divorce, my mother went to talk to the minister. He basically told her to support her husband and make the marriage work. For a variety of reasons, that was very wrong. It was also very disempowering, and did not support her in any way.

 

Using a legalistic narrow "Biblical" view can be very hurtful instead of helpful for many reasons, many of which have been mentioned above.

 

That's the key question. This situation is a reason to reject fundiementalism.  SO for a fundie, the answer would be no divorce period.  Otherwise they would have to change their definition of marrige and they would no longer be a fundie.

 

BTW in the Catholic tradition one would get a annulment, which means the addict was unable to  undertsand what marriage was when the rite was performed. Fundies may perhaps also use the same argument and argue that the marriage nevr really existed. SO they are free to leave and marry again.

 

 

 

yep lol, 

 

thank you , was a great post to read 

 

not only hurtfull but in Sever cases it can be very destructive 

To me every circumstance is individual and no one fits into a cookie cutter circumstance. What's good advice for one, may not be good advice for another.

 

Well said. Which is why a hard literal application of scripture does not work. It's trying to make scripture all things to all people in all situations and it just doesn't work that way. If fundamentalist Christians want to say that they will never divorce under any circumstances, they are welcome to it, but they have to stop trying to tell everyone else that they have to do it, too, esp. in a society where they are not the only game in town. And that applies to those subsets of Muslims and Jews who play the same game with their scriptures. Sharia is not applicable to all people in all situations and likewise the Law as written in the Torah.

 

Mendalla

 

 

I was refering to the opening post, which referenced the OT law. 

 

BTW how do you square what Jesus said in the old testament regarding divorce.

 

That is why Roman catholis forbid it, and instead annul marriages 

So just find a different section or interpretation of the text. Start with determining what the best advice is, then go hunting for that in the bible. You'll find a parable somewhere you can bend into resembling good advice.

 

I don't know anyone who says divorce should never be allowed under any circumstances.

I know of a case - actually my bil - where a young man far from home married a young girl.  They moved back to his home province.  Six months late, she got homesick, and took a train back home.  That was close to sixty years ago.  They may have been in touch during the next year or so, but during the entire time I knew him there was no further contact. 

I know that he had at least two short-term relationships - common-law marriages.

He died at the age of 80.

Was he still married to her?  and she to him? 

Did she ever remarry or live with anyone - perhaps common-law?  Did she have children?  Would it have made a difference?

Did she predecease him?   If so he was never notified.  Nor did anyone in his family try to locate her and let her know of his death.

 

I think about this whenever anyone says that marriage is forever.  Marriages can be saved.  People can get through the rough spots.  But it takes effort and good will from both sides.  When one or both walk away for whatever reason, the marriage will eventually dissolve.    By the time my daughter walked out of her marriage it had been effectively over for years.

 

 

Okay. If an unrepentant addict isn't enough to merit a divorce (and you've indicated it isn't upthread) what does? Spousal abuse or abandonment? Neglect? Infidelity? What circumstances would allow for the end of a marriage in your book?

 

Mendalla

i found this,,, its completly  true , even a christian partner can not help/change an adict 

 

pasted below 

 

What Addicts Do

My name's Jon. I'm an addict. And this is what addicts do. You cannot nor will not change my behavior. You cannot make me treat you better, let alone with any respect. All I care about, all I think about, is my needs and how to go about fufilling them. You are a tool to me, something to use. When I say I love you I am lying through my teeth, because love is impossible for someone in active addiction. I wouldn't be using if I loved myself, and since I don't, I cannot love you. 

My feelings are so pushed down and numbed by my drugs that I could be considered sociopathic. I have no empathy for you or anyone else. It doesn't faze me that I hurt you, leave you hungry, lie to you, cheat on you and steal from you.

My behavior cannot and will not change until i make a decison to stop using/drinking and then follow it up with a plan of action.

And until I make that decsion, I will hurt you again and again and again.

Stop being surprised. 

I am an addict. And that's what addicts do.

 

blackbelt

 

God can ------

- Hi Alex as much as I love my cathlic Brothers and Sisters . I don't always understand there beliefs. From what I can see . They annul a marriage .I thought it was only if there had been no sex.I believe they also know it is wrong, to break up a marriage. As God has put them together. --airclean33

 

What agreat vid Unsafe. Praise be to GOD. Young people on fire for GOD.

 

blackbelt

 

I don't know If you would be interested in listening to this -----but I thought I would post it --- incase you wanted to listen to it ------

 

There ia a part 1 but part 2 gets into the divorce more ----it is informative ---

 

 

The Truth About Divorce, Part 2 (Mark 10:1-12) John MacArthur

 

 

Again I will ask

If you haven't seen or heard of your spouse for over fifty years, and don't know it they are living or dead, can you consider your marriage over?  

 

Would it make any difference if it was only 25 years?  or 10?  or 3?   

 

If, instead of physically absent, your spouse has disappeared into a haze of addition and is no longer the person you married, wouldn't that be the same?

 

 

My answers would be no, no, and no.