Hi Aldo, welcome to wondercafe!

 

A lot of repetitive rhetoric, but I realize that you are doing your best to make your ideas understood.

 

Rather than differentiate between the material and the spiritual, I prefer to think that we are a spiritual universe. I do, however, agree with you that many of us believe that the universe is merely material. Once we experience the merely material reality as spiritual, then the distinction drops, and all is spiritual.

 

We are divine children living a divine life in a divine world.

-Rumi

 

Hi

Two thoughts in response.

There is one universe or existence. Is there differentiation in that one universe? From my own experience I discern that truth is different from things in themselves. So within that one universe I see things that are infinite  and eternal as different from things that are transient. The latter I consider spiritual, the former material. We experience both these.

In scripture there is clear differentiation between spiritual things and other things, between this 'world' and the things of the spirit.

I think you are right that what we immediately experience is not differentiated. But once we start to grasp things, it seems to me we grasp God and the things of God differently than things that do not impart spiritual life to us (i.e. material things).

Thanks for your feedback.

Not sure of my first step. So, a leap...

 

One thing comes forward for consideration. Is thinking about existentialism equivalent to being an existentialist? Following from this,  I wonder if an existentialist thinks about existentialism?

 

I am present to each who passes into and through this electronic medium. I am present to the room in which I sit, where my pup wanders by to see if I might be up for some play, my partner knits a sweater and the radio plays tunes from my teen years.

 

I am present to my mother as she makes her evening prayers. Present to the banker who seeks to make use of me for the sake of profit. Present to the stranger who accosts me in the street and the welcome friends who happen by and intercede. Present to the moon, the sun and the stars.

 

I am present in absence no less than in presence.

 

George.

 

All that you touch
All that you see
All that you taste
All you feel
All that you love
All that you hate
All you distrust
All you save
All that you give
All that you deal
All that you buy
Beg, borrow or steal
All you create
All you destroy
All that you do
All that you say
All that you eat
And everyone you meet
All that you slight
And everyone you fight
All that is now
All that is gone
All that's to come
And everything under the sun is in tune
But the sun is eclipsed by the moon

 

- Pink Floyd

 

 

 

 

 

Were they Christians?

 

To the American Native, God was the Great Spirit. They also believed that each person had a spirit helper and if a person made contact with their spirit helper the were special. 

This was in a book ‘Panther in the sky” written about the native chief Tecumseh.

 His brother on night met hi spirit helper.

 

Quote from a book written by Jacques Hamilton. It was packaged in a three book combo named "Our Alberta Heritage”

 

“The first black-robed missionaries struggled westward to

what is now Alberta in search of heathens to convert.

They found heathens all right, but they also found a

surprise waiting for them. Sheltered in the foothills of the

Rockies, completely isolated from white men, they found a

Tribe of Indians practicing a distorted but recognizable form

Of Christianity.

The missionaries heard of the Indians god and Zazeekry

- a figure astonishingly close to the Christian Christ.

They heard of angels, of baptism, and they saw with their

own eyes the cross that was the symbol of the tribe's re-

ligion.

And soon they heard the name of Beeny, the Indian seer

Who had brought his people this new religion and who was

Probably the west's first "missionary" — though hardly in

the  Christian sense of the word. Stunned, the missionaries dismissed

Beeny   and  his religion as tools of the "Dark Spirit". But, at the same time,

 goaded   by curiosity, they investigated what they had found,

and  uncovered a story as strange as any to come out of the west”.

 

George

Existentialism is in existing or being. Thinking about existing or being moves us towards reflection and to philosophy.

In your comment you refer to being present. How is one present? What I suggest, unlike many other descriptions of existentialism, is that Christ is a reality in which we can exist or be. If we exist in that reality, then we would 'present' in a Christian way. But, I think we can be present in many other ways. One can trial being and choose what serves best.

When we are present through others, say a mothers in prayer, do they grasp our presence as being of Christ, or of being their child, as for example a mother bear would grasp their cub. How others grasp me, can affect how I grasp myself.

We can present as Christian when we put on Christ ion our being and existing. I also think that if we put on Christ and present ourselves through Christ, having put on Christ, that we are by the nature of the reality which is Christ through which we are existing formed spiritually.

This is quite different from discriptions of existentialism without Christ. These seem to discern and find existence to be absurd, anxious and crises ridden without solution.

Existential Christians are being Christian. They are then in a position to reflect on their being and existing.

regards

Hi Fred

As I understand the Gospels, the written and living Gospels, God exists in us but does so in human terms. We cannot relate to God as God. Such relation is beyond our limitations. We relate to God in human terms. The historical Christ would be God in human terms. But, God is in us here and now. That is God in human terms is present to us within us. Because God present to us in human terms, we can connect with God. Indeed, I think the living Christ with in us, is more immediate and real than the historical Christ.

God is not in us exclusively, God in human terms is all people. Everyone has the Light within. But how do we discern it, how do we relate to it. God in human terms is infinite and eternal; has always existed and will always exist and exists in every person.

People discern God in human terms, that is the infinite and eternal Christ, and choose to follow or put on that reality as far as possible for them. I have seen very simple and basic folks discern Christ, put Christ on and become very Christ-like, all the while they could hardly read let alone understand theologies in academic terms.

There is an affirmation from people who find and follow God, that does not come forward from people find something else and follow that. Christians who does not exist through Christ still encounter existence. Many have found that encounter terrifyingly full of nothing. Existential Christians (in churches or not) affirm goodness in all situations and circumstances.

sincerely

The most religious person I know is a neighbor who does good work every day...

prays (at least three time a day..)

...and thinks that helping out others is not a chore but an opportunity.

A deeply good man...

 

and a Muslim. 

The nature of energy was not known to our ancestors. To them, electromagnetic radiation was spiritual. Today, it is just one of the many manifestations of energy.

 

As far as we know with scientific certainty, energy is the only substance of the universe. And energy appears to be a singularity (energy can't be pluralized) And energy can't be destroyed, meaning that it is eternal, and it can't be created, so it must be creator.

 

There are, of course, many forms and states of energy, and there seems to be a transcendental power of force that transforms energy from one form or state into another, but there is just energy. And, if we assume reality to be non-dualistic, then the transcendental force is inseparably intertwined with energy. Then transcendental energy is all there is: the spiritual as well as the material substance and essence of the universe.

 

All we have to do is become consciously aware of this, and we are spiritually awake and aware.

 

Am I oversimplifying? Maybe? But maybe that's how it really is?

 

"This is all that I have learned: God made us plain and simple, but we have made ourselves very complicated."  Ecclesiates 7:29 

John

There are many good people doing many good things and doing those good things for many reasons. The goodness in people is to be found everywhere in all kinds of folks. We all exist with God as part of our make up. This presence in our exist is present regardless of our world views or religious practices. So it is, that there are many good Christians who follow their church teachings and practices. What I am suggesting is that people can exist or be in different ways, through different kinds of realities. Existentially they become what they exist in or through.

 

My understanding is that there is a reality, which manifests and expresses God in human terms. This reality proceeds from God and it shares both God's essence and existence. We are created with this reality within our make up or core. Therefore we can exist through this reality which we can grasp because it is with us in terms we can access and exist through.

 

All people can discern this reality, some more clearly than others. Having discerned it, it is Light that illuminates us. Those who follow that Light or put on that reality, exist of that reality. Those with clearer grasp come together in community to share their experiences. Bottom line is that there is an basis for faith rooted in existence and that we can manifest or express God through our present actual existing.

 

Can my immediate experience of existence serve to ground faith?

 

regards

Hi

Pearls of wisdom...

So I wonder what is that the "Preacher" learned and how did he learn it? The existential approach is the simplest I have come across. As I age, I can say the "Preacher" is right in his perception. The problem is young people and the coming world. How will they navigate their world, with what aids and tools? How can they discern God and find their way into Godliness?

I have found a still point for myself, but my attention is drawn towards children and what one can share with them to prepare them for journies.

regards

  Airclean--Here seems once more very mixed up. Those who don't follow Christ are not Christains. There as far as I know are none who will find Life without Him. Church dose not save you. Only Jesus The Christ can do that.There is but one who is good that ever walked in flesh . His Name is Jesus The christ. All others you and me included. Are sinners.  God Bless--airclean33

Hi

 

You are right that our ancestors did not know the concept of energy as we know it ... of course depending on who 'we' is. The physicist has one concept, the kinesologist another, the Greek phiolosphers had different concepts as well. Mary Shelly had some concept behind her Frankenstien possibly derived from the new scientists of her time.

 

Scientific certainty depends on which school of science one adheres to, don't you think? Theories change with the seasons, it seems. What does not change is experieince of existence. The experieince of existence replicates in all places, in all cultures during all times.

 

What our ancestors, I think would be acutely aware of, was existing. In our own lives, long before we conceptualize enegery, existence is. From that we sense ourselves and other things. What we immediately and directly experieince is existence and God in existence. I think from there we relate to things in human terms, not as they may in themselves, but as they are to us.

 

I think we are more immediately aware of God in us that we are of our own selves in us. But, we are aware of God in our limited terms, that is in human terms, because we exist as we are. Those who exist from and of God, are of God. God comes alive in human terms, in present actual temporal life through us.

 

I take these kinds of things for the 'begining'. Concpets of energy come much later in cognitve structures. It is neither energy nor a transcendant force that brings justice or nmercy. Just and mercy exist through us, when our existing manifests or expresses it.

 

This is what I mean when I say that existential Chriostians are Christian because of their existence. We exist before we become coincious of ourselves. We manifest justice before we conceptualize it, and we manifest it through the reality of Christ in us. I believe I have seen this kind of thing in some very simple folk, who walked very close to God in their time.

 

Thanks for your conversation...

Airclean

 

I think I understand what you have shared.

 

Let me try to speak to one point. I do not think of God, the Spirit or Christ as objects outside of myself. My experience is that Christ, the Spirit and God are in me. They lead me. As you say, I am taught by them. Where they lead I can follow. What they teach I can practice and believe. If I do follow and do practice and do believe, then God, the Spirit and Christ are manifest in daily life through me. This is true for all who actively follow Christ.

 

When I say God is in me, I do not all that God is in me. There is in me what is needed for me to encounter, know God and reach to become Godly.

 

As you say, Christ walked the earth --- past tense. Christ still walks the earth, through you and I...

 

Thanks for your detailed feedback

 

Yes, Aldo, our ancestors felt the existence of a spiritual dimension, and expressed it in the terms and concepts they were most familiar with. We still do the same.

 

From my experience, justice and mercy arise from the unitive experience of at-onement with everyone and everything, including the creative power of the universe, and the feeling of universal, unitive love which this experience necessarily entails. The terminology we use to describe that divine union differs from individual, and from culture to culture. The unitive experience matters, the words less so. Moreover, I think we all should try to become multilingual in our expressions, being able to understand and express the unitive experience in the jargon of as many thought systems as possible, including the jargon of science and science-based philosophy.

 

In our secular day and age, scientific truth and science-based philosophy is most compelling. Sure, scientific truth is not fixed, and changes as new insights arise, but the scientific method is the best method we have yet come up with for determining truth. If creator and created are indeed inseparably interwined, as I conclude from my unitive experience, then the natural sciences define God most truthfully. Science, then, is, at least in part, theology.

 

Arminius

 

I think our dialogue is making some headway...

 

A few thoughts to add to your post.

 

I think we need solid practical and specific means derived from "the unitive experience of at-onement with everyone and everything". How do we arrive at the application of that experience to one another. First the specifications have to be in 'human terms' so we can relate to them and actually make use of them.

 

Assume for a moment that Christ is God housed in flesh. Then we would have God in human terms. Scripture, fails to provide a full and accurate rendition of Christ as God in human terms. But, it does provide a consolidation of sorts. Lets continue with our assumption. Christ dies temporally, but the spirit does not. The spirit is eternal and infinite. As god is eternal and infinite, so God in human terms is infinite nad eternal. The next assumption is that 'the unitive experience' is real. This would mean that in our selves we have God, Christ (God in human terms), and our selves. We still require the specific of God in human terms. I call these Christ-specifics. We can draw on our person experiences, the texts of scripture, the experience of others and actually get to know and to practice those specifics.

 

Science is what it is entire from the power of experience and more so experiment. We can use both trial by experience and trial by experiment to discern the Christ-specifics. These specific can be discerned, applied and replicated by our selves and by others. So an act of mercy or kindness should generate the same out comes in myself, and possibly in others (all things considered).

 

It does all begin with existing. My view is that God in human terms is a distinct reality which is part of our make up and through which we can be exist. The reality of God tabernacled is Christ-reality. It remains for us to articulate and delineate that reality that we can live it and become of it and from it --- hence existential Christian.

 

enjoy the day...

 

Hi Aldo:

 

I agree with you. I just use different phraseology.

I like your train of thought, Aldo. I have said before on WC that this is how I conceptualize 'resurrection', and 'the return of Christ' through people (our flesh, our bodies) as the conduit to bring that energy into our 'reality'. We, humanity, being that 'flesh'. Any transformation of the reality of the human experience is not, or won't be, something that happens from outside of ourselves, exclusive of us, but inclusive of and through ourselves. How the stories in the Bible describe it are largely symbolic. Gandhi said "be the change you wish to see in the world". Although he didn't identify as Christian, I believe he was very simply communicating the same thing. In us, through us, and with faith that's possible, and with awareness and intentionality, we can become the human embodiment of the love that unites us with God. God is Life energy.

Kimmio

 

Thanks for your response. If you will bear with me, I am going to provide perhaps lengthy responses to your points.

 

In today's world, those who follow Christ may well fail Christ if they restrict themselves to Scriptures --- Christ is more than than that. We learn from scripture, but we can learn from our present experience and experiments, here and now. Experience and experiments provide us a reality which we can 'do' now. Our connection to God and Christ is now. In a sense we can 'do' Christ in our everyday existing. In 'doing' Christ, the Christ within us transforms our existence. In 'doing' Christ, we personally benefit even more than the people we encounter, interact with and serve. The presence of God in us and the moving of the spirit in us as a present experience is at the core of Methodism and is richly referenced in the writings of the Reformers, to which the United Church has legacy.

 

The great challenge is in what to do, how to do it, as well as when and where... finally why. To these ends we need doable specifics to guide us (especially so for young seekers). Far too much meandering in generalities and platitudes stunts growth or aborts the emergence of 'fruits' of the vine, as it were. How do we "be the change you want to see in the world"? If the change we want to see is from God, then we need to relate to God in human terms --- specific doable human terms. We need to arise from a reality that we can actually grasp, consume and do. Indeed there are some examples in the Gospels of scripture, there are examples from other texts of scripture. We have examples from the history of folks who have trodden that path, and from people in our midst who are treading that way. But, most of all, I think we need our own personal experiences and experiments that discover, discern and define the specifics of Christ within us coming alive through our existing or being from that reality and of that reality. As to why we would do these things... the proof of the pudding is in the eating. That is what makes existential Christianity.

 

Resurrection serves different purposes for different folks I think. What I find thought provoking is that while there was a carnal death, there was no spiritual death. Is the resurrection merely a carnal resurrection? If so, what purpose does it it serve? A carnal death and resurrection 2,000 years ago may have served a purpose then, I do not think it affects our relationship to God or Christ today. What matters today is that Christ comes alive through our personal existence.

 

It is not we who transform from carnal to spiritual, it our "existing" that transforms, from merely material to spiritual. (We are born from above of spiritual things.) In existing spiritually, we rework our material or carnal existence. As I mentioned earlier, we require the nuts and bolts of specifically existing from and of that reality so that as we lift Christ, Christ in turn lifts us.

 

I have found these dialogues encouraging...

 

regards