I always expected that deism was a two dimensional thing ... unlike monotheism that follows a line like a one-way street! Tres vitriolic ... that's quick ... eh bi?

The dictionaries sort of indicate that too ... as a multidimensionsal thing ... but who da thought that in a world built on emotion and whereas thought is an out-there nebuous ambiguity ... in a world where disambiguity is beyond the emotional isolation or what Hebrew called mahaineim or condensed to man-kind's ort of thing without self-etude where man is an image of L'uv' without a Q'lue ... when encountered, if true chi'll be the death of heh'eme ...

But you can't say that haere, truth is not allowed only lyres and they're opposites ... imaginary encompassments that might approach secular discursiveness or platitutes of intercourse of the other kind that could screw up a soul into the light ...

Is that close to Levite, or otherwise lifted by a light juan, hand? Such myths are just chi-ite to those without abstracts ... missing parts of their emotions ... creating wholly minds ... and fussy logic ... leads to Alice and the hare-less story ... a bald lie about something stirring in her empty space?

Leo Buscaglia mentioned this ... that a mortal preying was in need and the one God talked to was crazy, proving two Hebrew citii's (states of chaos) one of love and one of pure thought ... at that I'yam out-a-here ... as an alter form or just a cos moe logical figment in you'ra priorii imagination ... sort of like providential as the mind can give flashes ... from time to time ... in one myth chi was called Precious ... very possessive tho' ... about the Circe ... a story within a myth! Tough to cut like fore's kin ... the antes ... a nebulous story to accept superficially in a dimension so rife with lyres ... about what and who they know when in the larger perspective what does an overly emotional person know? No room for thought and thus some emotional baggage must be tossed overboard with Juan ah ...

Meeting the Wahl of intellect is a challenge if your not pre pared ... a Mir cutting remark?

Christian deism

 

John Locke is often credited for his influence on Christian deism.

Christian deism, in the philosophy of religion, is a standpoint that branches from deism. It refers to a deist who believes in the moral teachings—but not divinity—of Jesus. Corbett and Corbett (1999) cite John Adams and Thomas Jefferson as exemplars.

The earliest-found usage of the term Christian deism in print in English is in 1738 in a book by Thomas Morgan, appearing about ten times by 1800.

The term Christian deist is found as early as 1722, in Christianity vindicated against infidelity by Daniel Waterland (he calls it a misuse of language), and adopted later by Matthew Tindal in his 1730 work, Christianity as Old as the Creation.

Christian deism is influenced by Christianity, as well as both main forms of deism: classical and modern. In 1698 English writer Matthew Tindal (1653–1733) published a pamphlet "The Liberty of the Press" as a "Christian" deist.He believed that the state should control the Church in matters of public communication.

It adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus, while denying that Jesus was a deity. Scholars of the founding fathers of the United States "have tended to place the founders' religion into one of three categories—non-Christian deism, Christian deism, and orthodox Christianity." John Locke and John Tillotson, especially, inspired Christian deism, through their respective writings.^[9]

Possibly the most famed person to hold this position was Thomas Jefferson, who praised "nature's God" in the "Declaration of Independence" (1776) and edited the "Jefferson Bible"—a Bible with all reference to revelations and other miraculous interventions from a deity cut out.

In an 1803 letter to Joseph Priestley, Jefferson states that he conceived the idea of writing his view of the "Christian System" in a conversation with Dr. Benjamin Rush during 1798–99. He proposes beginning with a review of the morals of the ancient philosophers, moving on to the "deism and ethics of the Jews", and concluding with the "principles of a pure deism" taught by Jesus, "omit[ting] the question of his divinity, and even his inspiration."

Christian deists see no paradox in adopting the values and ideals espoused by Jesus without believing he was God. Without providing examples or citations, one author maintains, "A number of influential seventeenth- and eighteenth-century thinkers claimed for themselves the title of 'Christian deist' because they accepted both the Christian religion based on revelation and a deistic religion based on natural reason.

This deistic religion was consistent with Christianity but independent of any revealed authority. Christian deists often accepted revelation because it could be made to accord with natural or rational religion."

=========================

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_deism

Is anything not God?

In a sense of providence which is defined as having some fore vision (prophets of soul) would that assist into seeing into the dark worlds of demagogues (only half there). There is an interesting description of demagogue in Wiki as well.

Gives life to alternate meanings of existence that the demagogues wouldn't wish us to know as satyr/satire doesn't go over well with demagogues. Consider what they did to Li'l Abner and Pogo in the 40's and 50's ... censured! The common people (paegaens) shouldn't know such humour! Somethings change some hardly atoll ...

Are the masses censured to day with the corporations all owning the media, and even encroaching into the internet area? There is not a day goes by that MS isn't tampering with my Windows System and asking whether they can investigate the use of words I utilize quite devilishly so they won't know I'yam playing with the mind ... a grand dark place if you carry a bit of the Levite wit 'yah ...

Tis my torch with which I connect with a power greater than avarice (that excessive desire to possess eveything) ... but is an unconscious thing once you get to a certain level of fortune ... the soul is then off there like a Lost Lamb!

Omega de 99 ... less the one called Huey ... heh was well blackened by the demagogues of the time ... that genre continues ad infinituum ... thus the security of inner space as defined in science of the conscience! Some say it is imaginary ... becus they don't got nun ...

Hi Linds:

I regard cosmic energy as a singularity, capable of transcendence. I believe that transcendence is an innate quality of energy, but whether the power of transcendence is an innate quality of energy, or a power separate from energy, is a moot point. There can't be a mover without something to be moved. Conversely, there can't be a substance to be moved without a power to move it. Mover and moved may be diametric opposites, but they necessitate each other because one can't be without the other.

I believe, and many rationalists and scientists agree, that reality, or "God's Truth," is non-dualistic. Ultimate reality is a unified and indivisible whole. As soon as we analyze IT, we fragment IT, and IT no longer is what IT really is. We analyse reality to understand IT analytically, but analytical truth is not absolute. Absolute or ultimate Truth can only be intuited or experienced, and is being experienced, in the pure, non-analysed or undifferentiated experience of being, as in meditation. Then we experience God—if we are unitheists.

To my mind, there are two truths: the small t truth of analysis and the capital T Truth of synthesis. Small t truth is relative—relative to the viewpoint of the observer. Capital T Truth is absolute. By choosing an observing viewpoint, we arbitrarily choose our small t truths. Capital T Truth, however, is absolute, unchanging, and forever. IT is honest-to-God God's Truth!

I am a unideist as well as a unitheist, and I also regard myself as a Christian deist.

"I AM"

-God

"I and the father are one"

-Jesus

That's close to a divine question "Y" as God didn't know when IT was synthesised ... too tired from screwing about with the whole of the cosmos ... not just the demagogues ... those that are only half collected as of yetii ...

Hi Linds:

Well, to my mind, there is neither motherhood nor fatherhood of God. But if one wants to divide cosmic energy from the transcendental force that set it in motion, one could regard energy as the feminine cosmic spirit (yin), the transcendental power as the masculine spirit (yang), with the union between the two leading to the divine conception and birth of the physical universe.

The TAO begat one,

The one begat two,

And the two begat the ten-thousand things.

-Lao Tsu

And so it goest ...

Do angels have sects or are they just in-ses-tues floaters that induce the concept of dieing to this dimension and moving on ... like sesame ... a cede that is desired to be opened in myth. Sometimes this is like the mortal mind ... small a Muse Tardy seed in opening up to a network as mustard. Ever try and run throught he mustard when in its prime ... yellow and thick ... as a thinker!

Why it is hard to get through a tough one as they become psychopathic without a bit of care inside ... sometimes difficult to see ... That is a person ready for catharsis ... nebelung? ARM ... can you chew on that a bit? Like some word ... difficult to digest in its mortal form ...

Yeah, it is rather nebulous at times, eh? Out there and inside our minds.

What can we do to break through the fog?

The quantum leap from being created to being creator, and from being imitator to being creator, is essential, because the fog in our minds is self-created, and it is up to us to clear our minds. Connecting with the creative power, force or source of the universe, through prayer, meditation, contemplation, or any of a large number of mediative/contemplative exercises, will help us become responsible creators.

Key word ... responsible, or is that like respectful and reverential for all?

Now there's a far out concept ...

Yes, WB, being responsible is being reverential and respectful toward all—all of creation!

Far out, eh?

WHOLENESS IN SPIRIT, MIND AND BODY--PNEUMA, PSYCHE AND SOMA

Water B, you ask an interesting question about "PSYCHOPATHY". Now take a look at the article below, by Jonathan Kay. It is his column in today's National Post and it is filled with some very interesting information.

After you have read it, in the light of what St. Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 about the need for the spirit, mind (soul) and body to work together like the pods of a tripod--each being a component, an essential part not just a casual one--let have a dialogue about what all this means for us.

Jonathan Kay :

Margaret Thatcher’s Alzheimer’s, Matthew Warren’s suicide, and the tragedy of broken brains

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/04/08/jonathan-kay-from-autism-...

=========================

http://www.nationalpost.com

So interesting Rev. King ... as things that have been infesting my soul (indeterminate) for years. I have been repeatedly told that I shouldn't think and the mind/soul/psyche does not exist ... so the spirit of my brain (magneto-electric as one stage obove the weak and greater powers) rots causing a great stink in other dimensions ... could that be a decomposing Utopia or justly fallen heaven?

A stupid conception of mortals?

The result is I must express my experiences of mind in a way that people will believe that I am not thinking ... as in a basic Christian belief about knowlwdge thought and such other nonsense. This from people that follow their emotions alone! Knowledge is in church a dispicable thing ... turning those of us rejected into composing monsters. Ever read Vistor Hugos tale within a myth of the spoilage of civilization ... in Les Miserabes that are overlooked by the rich and powerful? Words of a crazy person right? I just shouldn't know these things ...

So there I be ... out here in reverence of all creation ... learning from humans how not to do things ... a sort of negative mental state ordered up by the princely oligarchs as coached humourlessly by non other than Machiavelli! Got to be a Freudean slip, or just a dropped soul ... shattered genus?

What bothers me is the fact that they do not know what they do ... as they dispose of that spark callled psyche ... poor little girl of a narrow form of broad mindedness ... and growing in subconsciousway that will emerge and bite mankind on the butte ... beautuful satire don't you think ... like a story of truth hidden in the Shadow of a gross Lie about who is God ... god has to be alone in the shame of what he created alone (a farce of sorts?) alas, with human assistance all is still inhumane ... because we have disposed of thought, knowledge and any conscious wisdom of that old axiom: be good to self and to the adjacent ... for are all things not related by Levite's cognizance? That could be a monster to small thinkers ... or just Leviathan as a gross lesson as it passes ... and there the crazy man was gone again ... outlandish eh-bye?

Did you know that philosophy is considered the love (god) of knowledge, intellect and wisdom ... and even lately I've been told by PHD's in fields related to Divinity that I am crazy to think ... theological fertilizer ... or just reverse psychology ... as a severe reflection or just echo (Ego in German tongues eh Arm) of a loving word of great sadness of what we've come to ... a human cesspool.

Noz height ... something beta has got to come of the next generation ... giving me hope and desire to leave before Ephraim of thinking daemon returns without due care ... is that a prop of jacquiline (feminine genre of Jaqob)?

By G~Ð the myth lives ... sort of a demagogue ... in literary form ... hommoe Soma? The form of the sleeping monster ... not quite sentient yet ...

Creation does have an odd soul ...

And then so many people here have sent me messages that I need mental and emotional assistance ... not in this dimension please! I do have outlandish friends tho' ...

This whole exchange on my outlandish expression makes me think ...

As a fringe person experienced here ... does this make me an incarnation of an OBI?

Now is that wild as Juda'n daughters ... haggadai ... sort of a bloody nuisance to those that don't wish to know a pain in the Æsir which sort of a mule god ... like a thought that just won't go way? Walter Brennon run one across a bottom land ferme ...

Wholeness in spirit, mind, and body?

If "spiritual" is the opposite of "material," and the "body" is our "material body," and the "mind" the nerve centre of that body (brain) together with the memories it has created and accumulated, then the wholeness of the three together would be the awareness that they are one, one energy, one creative energy, and an inseparable part of the totality of creative energy: a creative singularity of energy that some of us define as God.

The self-creative totality of energy, a.k.a. God, transformed ITself into matter and flesh and into biological organisms and organs that, like IT, are self-creative and create memory. If we use our creative organ creatively and wisely, then we can become aware that we are the self-creative totality, or an inseparable part thereof.

The awareness that we are a self-creative, wholistic or wholotheistic universe, in which all separations are arbitrary, and ultimate Truth is the wholeness of the thing, then the experience of that wholeness unites spirt, mind, and body into the one holy whole which it actually is. This is not discovering something new; this is only discovering what there is.

ARM;

Perhaps as a body of humanity we are not asking the right questions, or just being mislead by the wrong kinds of gods (idealisms) that are closer to avarice than a give'n thing?

How do we define success down here ... in a satirical way as compared to the fortune of wisdom? Somehow that's how I'yam led to led in go and be gone ...

Then something keeps drawing me back like when you see a mistake and would like to do something about it ... but the environment is hostile to such ends ... eschatology without reason ... a life without purpose (Warren's)? It is a problem when people will tell you to do nothing until your'e told ... as if they had all the answers ... and don't know about abstracts, myth and all such magic as church without limits ... mortal has difficulty with such concepts and contemplations; evil thoughts!

Is there something missing there, like a man that believes he knows all-that-is and can't see the fallacy in a mortal state of mind that he can't see a way out of? Then what would I know of a peculiar world where I Yam part of the chi-ite half ... but fortunate in my own way that few understand! Sort of like Luther ... "free at last" ... but that might be a satire-like axiom ... like a dull platitude with an edge!

Is there any larger perspective of the 3rd hand than Psalm 8; 3,4?

Get oude Eire, ponder materism differently ... sort of odd eh-bye! The way us outlandish sorts look into ID ...

Hi WB:

How do we define success down here?

Success here on earth is not resting in Jesus' finished works, but finishing them: creating the kingdom of God on Earth.

If God is the unified universe, then establishing a unified earth, in the spirit unity, wholeness or oneness, for the benefit of all of its beings, could be defined as godly success here on Earth or as fulfilling God's will on Earth.

"Thy will be done, on Earth, as it is in heaven." 

-Jesus

"All My Relations."

-North American aboriginal benison

Arm: Apropos the last flury of interesting posts between you and WB, check out the ideas of:

CHRISTOPHER LANGAN (1952--). He is a MODERN AUTODIDACT--self-taught in many fields of knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Langan

======

http://www.ctmu.org/

Quodos to you LGK ...

I read Outliers in the last few months and it amazed me to contemplate (darsant use the word think on a stoic media) how much meditative power lies anonymous to mankind do to self-centredness (Ego-centred ness; a dark pool?).

Imagine if we put such hidden contemplative potential power to work ... the work of the Shadow, or is that just Dark Anti-matter ... energy? The metaphorical Joules of Jew-eLs of what's out there as diamonds in the san, once called Judai'n ... not how we interpret the words today as such sensitivity is lost ... like a Black Lamb! 

Then do the children of God wish to know these things that might inhibit their private success? And the old people of God ... now that approaches the sense of Classic Wisdom in some cases ... then others are just children of heart ... don't care much for sol' stuff!

It is interesting what scientists say about singularities like sol' .. and simplification of unification ... and yet can't deal with the expansiveness of the word G~D beyond inhumane application. Leonard Susskind stated that Richard Feynman said people who needed to use a lot of words to describe vast comprehension ... didn't know what they were talking about. But yet people like Feynman spoke a lot about singularities, discontinuities and such when they could have just used the icon "1" or perhaps Juan ... an abortion of Jean or John ... or even Jahn ... but the ideals of mortal like evolution, alteration, change and redaction ... even though they say a fixed world is revolutionary and can't be changed though ambiguous language and satire.

They like to think of this as discoursive and disambiguity ... and the vast population; "M" or th'eme Theory should be silent.

I've had more than a few theologins and philosophers tell me to shut up ... as things I've seen don't match what they've been told and never question the authority that told them such crap! The book is the law you know ... not heart and soul to it you know and quite cold at that ... unless you reach into the depths of the dead ... kohl quenches the passions ... allows compassion in the myth and mystery! People like mystery ... something they don't have to know or resolve if they don't appear to care ...

Hi Linds and WB:

I very briefly scanned "A Very Brief History of Time." I agree with the author that the universe created itself, and I agree with his concept of bidirectional (forward and reverse) time.

What the author forgot to add, however, is bi-dimensional (outward and inverse) space. In terms of space/time, it would be outward-inverse-space/forward-reverse-time. Moreover, it is forward time and reverse time at the same time, and outward space and inverse space in the same space, and also no-space and no-time, all existing together.

Actually, it is just no-space/no-time. But no-space, while remaining no-space, split into inverse and outward space, ex/impanding at the speed of light, thereby creating reverse and forward time. Thus, the universe is not only expanding, but also impanding, at the speed of light, and this is time. We can observe and measure the expansion, but the impansion is so rapid that it cannot be observed or measured easily. But it could probably be inferred and expressed mathematically.

All this is very difficult to explain, and even more difficult to understand, and I don't have the mathematical or scientific background to explain it scientifically, but I have experienced the self-creative universe in a vision, and this is how I interpret the vision, in simple layman's terms.

ARM ...

Imagine Pall of Tarsus falling into an odd tunnel ... there's a fabric worth looking into! IT's possibly profound ...

But perhaps such is an out-of-context mental process, like getting emotional about something and losing your thoughts. Is there a possibility for inverse (reciprocal; echo, or canan) like falling in love with knowledge and wisdom? That would be a Heiseinberg Oddity ... like being right out-of-IT, or looking at things from the other side (other's IÐ, like solm; ground to be crossed).

The phonetic often serves best although who'd believe it when we're drilled with the printed word is the law ... when the natural form was originally just soma-like spatial oddity ... like mortal ... living in his own conceptions and knowing no other ... plainly nun ... and nun simulates a holy letter as the silent beginning of Levite ... a flighty character like IC arious ... who provides quills and quivers in the breeze ... Eire'n media? Can carry a thought!

The storm gods are like that ... never know when they'll impact yah ... one has to look into strange swirls and eshes like the ancient biblical people looked into ED'm ... but in todays redaction it may not be now how it appeared then ...

God is odd like that ... sometimes popping up with athe aught ... isn't that just a devil of a thing to say in a fixed environment. How does one cause such a thing to change? Turn the stones into dirt and smack ... there you are in the midst of it; mire ... the deeper you are the further away from the sacred bunch who are afraid of anything anonymous, as Hebrews called their construct ... God, an unknown (especially to people like King James who was innocent and ignorant, an allowed to run wild by the wee people who feared bull and bullies).

The power of sum didn't occur to them that even weaker they were the greater power integral ... on second thought ... sometimes called beta! That is like the Roman "roe" en of Micael across that alien river of sticks/stix people .. not stoic but ethical! The devil to the emotions ... some mental analysis required to get into synthecising from the wee bit we have in hand ... almost nut'n! Like'd ownin of thistle ... we too we get across this eventually ... some kettle of stu' eh-bye! Loaded with jinn et'ic vorms ... if yah knows the alien icons and avoid the iconoclast who tells you this is the way it is and you know the path is much larger ... sort of like a wondering mule ... Ba'aLems ... soul and heart androgenously composited ... composed ... still? The only way to observe properly ... why people see so much from an edge experience---Lord Occum! The binary holds true, if you are not off centre too far with dampeneing of the wobble sort of like a cosmic bicycle ... and Perry Como, Find a Wheel or, Ezekiel get the spin, sort of like Dan's ...

If you don't understand I (Corinthians 14) perhaps you're not ripe for the picking ... that's by a heir yahn ... a rare burd ... celestial hunger? Fey rout ...

Is word like dirt to many mortals ... an alien icon? Couldgodbe underfoot?

That's sublime, or perhaps heh's hidden side ... and the Shadow reins ... for the love of dervishes ...

You can always learn something from a disturbance ... physical, mental or emotional ... no matter how far out ... some mortals fear even the knight's GUI ... it could collapse in co Pure functions we don't see the other side of the process ... like enthalpy's opposing function ... mortals find entropy hard to envision like folded dimensions, black holes sources of gammos, etc! They're just pop up functions in the quantum conflict ... when the infinite confronts the mortal ... omega, bubble formation, when the unknowing begin the ba,ba, buttie ... never turn your back on an old goad ... like a bump in the greater logistics ... log a rhythm? Some wrinkles are to be expected some thinking lass said that about convolutions in space when something catches the eye of the soul ... just for sedation, sedition, sedimentation, another clarifying term in dealing with streams in the outlands (swamps in the desert isles)? Perhaps a mistaken oasis ... Marie Leclaire' a bewitching myth to get to the bottom of? The Ba you goes on ... an on a cerulean above ... Bacarolle ... song of sol' ... heir gammos or wadis out there ...

Taken in full context, Happy G, it is dense unknown matter possibly ante matter ... related to mythical processes ... abrade it cautiously ... like ði amonds in the ruagh ... piles, pillars, uprights of something else again ... a constructlike "ï" mire silent word? Two spots in an awkward state ... some conjugation required ... androgynously! Look aD myst ... a fuzzy soul, or just unsure logic ?

Well, WB, philia is love, and sophia is wisdom, so a philo-sopher is a "lover of wisdom."

There are philosophical historians, who have read most of the great philosophers, memorized their ideas, and repeat or imitate them. This is good, and indicative of some love of wisdom, but it is not creative philosophy.

A creative or artistic philosopher creates new ideas, or sheds new light on old ideas. Socrates, who is generally regarded as the father of Western philosophy, made the remarkable statement, "I know that I don't know," thus affirming the relative nature of all analytical knowledge, and that ultimate Truth is unknowable or inexpressible in terms of analytical concepts.

Around the same time, about 2,500 years ago, Lao Tsu, who is often regarded as the father of Eastern philosophy, said the same: "The TAO that can be told is not the TAO."

Over the past few years and decades, science has figured out that it is indeed so, and why it is so. In a few words, it is so because the method of analysis necessarily differentiates between opposites and pitches them against each other, while ultimate Truth and wisdom is non-duality or the unity between opposites.

So, where does that leave us, the seekers of Truth and lovers of wisdom?

Well, it leaves us in somewhat of a dilemma. But, fortunately for us, ultimate wisdom and absolute Truth can be experienced, and are being experienced, in the pure, non-analyzed experience of being.

What is this experience like?

Although every experiencer is a unique individual, and therefore experiences ultimate Truth uniquely, there appears to be a common factor. It is the experience of oneness, inseparableness, unity or synthesis: an experience of the totality of being as one inseparable and self-creative whole, which some of us call "God."

So where does that leave us lovers of wisdom?

Well, it leaves it up to us to enact what we have experienced in our experience of wisdom and Truth. A lover of wisdom, after having experienced wisdom as an experience of the unified cosmic whole, becomes a lover of the unified whole. Hence: God is Love.

Having said all that, I must emphasize that I am not against analysis and logic. In fact, I pride myself in being a sharp logician, despite my lack of formal education. We humans have evolved as the analysers of the cosmos. Our power of analysis has brought us to our present level of awareness and creativeness, but we must never forget that analytical truth is not absolute Truth. Absolute Truth is in the experience of ultimate oneness. This experience, and enacting the feelings and insights gleaned from that experience, ought to be the goal of any lover of wisdom.

In Zen Buddhism, which I consider the greatest religion on our planet, the lover of wisdom first seeks the experience of wisdom, and then acts spontaneously and intuitively, directly from the experience of wisdom.

Early life

Durant was born in North Adams, Massachusetts, of French-Canadian parents Joseph Durant and Mary Allard, who had been part of the Quebec emigration to the United States.

Science gives us knowledge, but only philosophy can give us wisdom.
Will Durant

Every science begins as philosophy and ends as art.
Will Durant

And feel free to quote the above, OK!

Hi Linds:

Of course, one can find the same wisdom that one gets in Zen Buddhism on the Christian path. The Christian monastic tradition is also centred on meditative practice and on enacting what one experiences during meditation.

If I could live my life over again, I would enter a Cistercian monastery. Although I slithered into spiritual awareness on the Zen Buddhist path, Eastern culture is too unfamiliar to me to embrace wholeheartedly. That's why I returned to my beloved familiar Christianity after my forays into Eastern religion.

I point out the virtues of Zen Buddhism only because I find that Christianity does not offer a purely meditative path, at least not overtly. I would like all Christian denominations to offer and openly advertise a path that is non-dogmatic and purely contemplative/meditative. A path on which doctrinal belief is not necessary.

A path beyond belief, eh?

Thanks ARM & LGK ...

Nice to know someones out here in left field with me feeling (impressed felt) some experience in the foot ba'aL game ... where it is possible to kick some conceptions arround. I'm told conceptions in many churches are contemptable familiarities ... that they don't wish to know (ie. thoughts are out of the question). Does that smack of a redacted biblical mediation? That would be an altered Ego or a changed awareness ... like Shakespeare becoming instead of just being ... approximates a processed I Dae 'm ...

One has to read into all these things a great gathering of that which wile's children in pure form were ... how can I say ... indifferent to! They don't particularly like Jahn's word or as we call it the Gospel according to John ... like VeiledJean it is a corruption ... for wee people are not to know the truth according to god's church ... calls one to question but what the  isn't that biblical too as indicated in I Thessaloneans 5:21 ... thereabouts? I never fix things firmly for in my world things are fluid ... they move like a vine ... becoming something else ... sometime like thas saur ass (Nordic Æsir) another kind of wandering idealism ... like a wilderness Dawn Quies ... food is the thorny issue, buried with small points ... unless you make th'eme Kleins in theis Gnoe'n of outlandish things ... like sol' ... sort of a story for old salts in dealing with beyonds ... myths?

One has to become familiar with a lot of alien letters, icons, words and scattered thoughts ... God as love has a great deal of scattered thoughts ... for us to gather on, with or during and under peculiar circumstance like secular beans ...

"Christianity does not offer a purely meditative path" ... indeed there are varients, varieties, and corruptions ... but I chose not to be a thoughtless wonderer ... picking and choosing where to stand with wisdom that I have suffered proper entanglement! The bo-esh holds it all together ... you can hear ID go down ... thus it was sown ...

As Roosevelt said ... carry a big stick ... held at 90 degrees it is good for spanning the holes. Moses as a blind follower when barefoot so he could feel the holes before he stumbled over them in a world where what isn't ... is as a important as what is. Ever see so many inflexable beans ... sort of like Eire-like thoughts brae'npharts? Bubbles in a difficult spot ...

If you soak th'eme a bit they soften ... Jacks rule on highr WaðTaos sometimes spelt hiawatha ... can lead to a baptism of fluid light in a dark myth ... a presentation of soul? Really screws up the will of the inflexable ... non-maleable hams? They too require a creational Dunkuan ... so they could read alien things ... that which the do not know or dark matter/antimatter ... entangled! The Maas we deal with without imagination or abstracts ... stories that are not all there ... that's mies ...

And I will take a break for a wile ...

As ir was said by Æsir ... carry on ...

Sort of like flambouyante Scie, water with an edge ... eL Mos? It can cut a dry land ...

Hi WB:
 

If, as I believe, God is the non-dualistic reality, then God is indeed beyond analytical comprehension, beyond conceptualisation and beyond doctrine. But, thank God, the non-dualistic reality can be experienced, and is being experienced moment by precious moment, simply because what we experience is the non-dualistic reality!

The flaw is in our thinking. Our conceptualised reality is not the real, objective or ontological reality. Our conceptualised reality is an arbitrary creation. The real reality can only be experienced when we suspend thinking, in the pure unanalyzed experience of being, as in meditation. That's why I recommend meditation as the path to getting to know God and finding ultimate wisdom and absolute Truth.

Many scientists agree that reality ultimately is non-dualistic and thus beyond analytical comprehension. Science might be closer to apprehending God than religion.

This is so simply because science seeks truth without bias, whereas religion seeks to confirm a pre-conceived bias.

Arm, I just had a META-tative kind of fun checking out the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistercians#History

=================

Now, I will comment on the following comments of yours and ask some questions.

You say,

"I would like all Christian denominations to offer, and openly advertise, a path that is non-dogmatic and purely contemplative/meditative. A path on which doctrinal belief is not necessary. A path beyond belief, eh? "

 

By saying, "purely contemplative/meditative", do mean, having no conversation or dialogue, like the Trappists? Surely you can do this within the UC as it is, can you not?

 

In my re-directment--a term I prefer using rather than using the term retirement--I think of my reading, research and writing as a META-tative process.

 

"Although I slithered into spiritual awareness on the Zen Buddhist path, Eastern culture is too unfamiliar to me to embrace wholeheartedly."

"That's why I returned to my beloved familiar Christianity ..."

 

Returned? In what way? As always, in any dialogue, I always give protagonists the right to be Trappists, eh!

 

Hi Linds:

I was baptised and raised as a German Evangelical Lutheran, but became an atheist when I left Germany at age 24. At age 44 I was severely distraught and near suicide, and tried Zen Buddhism as a way out of depression. Eventually, and after a few Zen type satoris, I realized that the ultimate spiritual truths are universal and timeless, but are expressed differently by the various religions due to cultural differences. I also realized that I could have obtained the same insights within Christianity, and that I might as well return to the beloved religion of my childhood and youth. And I did.

By "a purely meditative/contemplative path" I mean meditation without indoctrination. I would like the church to offer mediation retreats that combine austere living with contemplative practices and meditation sessions but no religious indoctrination, as some of the European monasteries are now offering. This would also be in line with the North American aboriginal tradition of the Vision Quest. Many people are turned off by Christian or any other religious doctrine, but are eager to try meditation and benefit from the insights it can bring.

One can, of course, do it all by oneself. But I think it would be good if the church were to offer such sessions or retreats. Some churches are making an effort in that direction.

WILLOWDALE UNITED CHURCH --1966-1994

Did I tell you the following?

For over the last 25 years and more of my ministry, I was the minister at WUC--from 1966-1994--and that I did not apply for the position. It was later that I got the call because several key leaders at WUC had heard about and were interested in the meditation and healing programs that I started when I was at, Iondale UC, the first church I served in Toronto.

Then, I called the program PRAYER AND MEDITATION THERAPY--the healing power of meditative prayer plus psychology. Hundreds of people came to the programs and got help. Later, I started using the word PNEUMATOLOGY--study of the spirit.

I got the invitation to WUC because I let it be known, through the media (radio, TV and the press) what was happening. One story made the front pages of the press, including the Toronto Star, of my interest in the art of meditation. Over the years, thousands came to the meditation services on Monday Evenings, individuals came for counseling and other for other programs.

Do you remember the first visits by the Mahareshi Mahesh Yogi,from India? And TM? Being curious and open-minded, I met him here in Toronto, in 1964. TM was advertised widely in the media. But it was not then an acceptable topic in the churches. Critics said it was simply Hinduism with a commercial twist and not very Christian.

ARM,

I was suicidal at about 13-14 ... until I thought about it and the implications to those about me.  I was the enigma of the one parent child ... a b'ichthie spot to be in ... with altered spells and cursed gra-mere ... some would say cursed as she wasn't there. Like psyche in today's lost myths! The whole situation was basically emotional, with little thought and I was a bass turd like Æneid in the story of Levite ... some fertile abstract? This amuses the orphaned soul ...

I would call this meditation, but the UCC Minister in the area at the time says meditiation, thought and knowledge are not the same thing ... but he goes by the physical book ... it appears to me in the lighter form the grand Levite only gets into the book when it is cracked open. Some prefer to leave it closed as the word is anonymous to eme. And the grand Levite gets around eveything as being beyond comprehension, giving a Blip or BLEEP to our exchange that could allow a congealing of contemplations in androgynous giggle ... a wrinkle in time?

That is why I feel very close to the Parsons situation here in the east and the lack of knowledge on why this happened. My impression is people don't really care to know ... as I mentioned in an earlier string ... polity is extremism and the medium is corrupted by being possessed by the ends ... ontologically speaking a sublime state they'd rather not be in ... for they could get accused of knowing. This amounts to some immersion in the situation... and real people wouldn't like that ...

Is that sufficient chaotic expression about things that I'yam not supposed to know either as a non-knowledgable believer in things that are not physical ... like dark energy ... anonymous powers that have let themselves be know on CTV? Some say it is part of a collective conscience (large scattered organization?) this I've been told by proffessional writers to be non-sense ... there is no common thought as it was banned by biblical myth ... yet love and thought exist separately apart from physical stuff as a weird fuzzy conception in the form of verge'n thought. Yah never know wether its coming or going until it leaves yah though ... why it is best to be a carnate thought spanning the two weird and fuzzy poeLs ... that's me like an irrational number (complex) that is best illustrated as the lowercase Greek gamma ... a mere shadow where knowledge pas'd? E pis'T otomé ...

Did you know myth is derived from metà in Koine Greek? This is something discouraged by those limited by their mental horizon ... a gift of gods ... word plae or maas'n with/of/thro' the mind. I do find my soul is amused with my attention to the wee details of ID ... sort of like a bo'z UNE ... as it is all ova me ... just begging to learn must be emerging from the emotional tier ... like a bubble in my beir ... a hollow tome? Nut in the vault as one Celtic toon went ... MY What A Beautiful Casket!

Something to view from outside of de Jared ... be de athe of meis!

Then you know the origins of Ca/Ka and Skett (Ka Sket) Nordic like the Æsir's end ... anal Isis ... a hole dealing with nothing but fecundity ... close to a brain-mind connection until androgenous! A cunning paradoc ... or just aD hoc processing ... a wild thought out of syntax? Synthetic expressions of metà ...  makes me gutte wrinkle ... an inner flutter ... as I know nut'n but I expect something'll come to me if I'yam patient ... sol' needing catharsis? It is dilution theropy ... like a wash ... a thin mind can absorb anything ... of course this could be a-lein, but adhere to Hebrews 4:7 ... King James didn't know that conscience was in the book too ... inanimate objects don't contribute to thought? I'D question that ...

Makes one wish to do etude on the near inaanimate creature called man ... even stupid, innocent and ignorant ... you can learn from heh ... even if it is how not to do it or how it isn't ... leading to a be coming situation ... process in thought? And so it goes ... on the bounce like in di Annà Rubber Ba'aL ... mortal is resilient ... makes for good fecundity from the explicit perspective ... an outlandish thing to those intranced by the outer thing in great fear ... sciophobia that shows up in Celtic Legend ... Skye ... they're afraid it could fall ... when they've got it backward ... inverse or reciprocal ... but don't know that ... as they follow the mortal rule that swamps eme ...

A good image of the collective sol'? Is there a solution? It is something to pass through,over or under is sublime ... sort of like Elaine Dunkan ...

ARM,

Ponder this ... god as 7 shades intemingled as white and yet this is framed with two abstracts: UV and IR ... the former shade a' pall ene affair leading to a warmer heat?

Oh the mysteries of mind over matter ... energy and dust and the fine line of separation ... the mortal eye? Outlandish powers must giggle creating wrinkles in time ... folds in gammas fabrication? Probably metaphysical or mythical as a binding force between real and alternate cognizance ...

Puts me right out of the race ... sort of alien fallout ... like fecund or gravid wave that's attractive?

Good for you, Linds! We need more Christian ministers like you!

Yes, I rember Mahesh Yogi, and TM. My son-in-law is a devotee of Mahesh Yogi and a practioner of TM. Hardly a Sunday goes by that we don't talk about it.

Hi WB:

I knew the Koine Greek word metá, and its meaning, but I didn't knwo that "myth" was derived from it. So myth, far from being a lie, is a profound Truth that can't be expressed literally and therefore is expressed meta-phorically.

In some version they say it is just outa here ... sort of like outlanders or outlandish people ... so I behave crazy like so they won't know I carry such knowledge ... being as a lot of religious stones believe we shouldn't know anything ... 3-monkey rule with addendums ...

Meta and myth ... beyond many mortal beliefs as they shy away from the anonymous ... what the OT refers to as God ... but I can't remember just where ... mind that is very Utilitarian; short and as sharp as the small carpet knife on my desk ... allows one to cut form (hommoe) short without eM Gnoen! Odd slip of the point eh ?

Writing on the WWW is a god-given opportunity. For example, in a forum

RECENTLY, AN ATHEIST MADE THE FOLLOWING COMMENT:

"god, I hate religion ..."

========================

TO WHICH--instead of slashing back--and saying, "god, I hate atheism." I RESPONDED as follows:

I said to, "KickAss, the atheist: "By 'god'!"...  I assume you mean all who G-enerate O-rganize and D-eliver ALL that is G-ood, O-ptimistic and D-lightful to ... you name it, agreed? I added:

 

"Me? I know several such god-like atheists (and I do), with whom I chat often, who do a lot of good.

 

"For this, I always thank G~0~D/G~O~D. The 0 (zero) points to the eternal here and NOW; the O  points to infinite everywhere--the infinity of being in which we all live, move and have out being.

 

"Now, as a unitheist/unideist--See FBook--I became an a-theist in high school, soon after I heard about science.

 

"Bt the way, all readers are invited to have a positive dialogue at www.lindsayking.ca anytime you feel so inclined, OK?

====================

Interestingly, as I suspected: There was no immediate response. Meanwhile, the seed--fertilized by agape-based GOOD Will Power--has been sowed. Now I leave it with G~0~D/G~O~D to bring in the harvest.

But man has always devised on some way to make people afraid of nothing thus the abstract was created as Skye Country and was vacated by all that cared ... leaving much rheum for thought ...

And it flowed seamlessly and without form, so outlandish people could make something of nothing ... a spatial ability ... like conscience .. and you know how well the fixatd like science and knowledge ... so thay don't have to know themselves ...

Is that synthetic or what, perhaps "Y" as divined Q-ouest ... set off from knowing for a bit of rest. Looks different from the other perspective ... hoo dah th'unque ID?

Ja hoo dah, a word for nothing in Hebrew ...  Zeros to make something of ... and it was dunne, or ocre as dirt ... sometimes called Enya ... like conscience something deep within space ... dependant on perspective ...

The Hebrew mind was near nothing and thus very creative ... gave us a myth in place of the liar ... a dimension within which we dwell for yah can't believe nothing ... test it ... a command that is hidden in the scriptures ... a lot of fixated sorts won't for fear and anger about evolution that they coudn't keep up with.

Thus the only thing immortal is nothing sort of like the sol' psyche or nothing important to oiligarchs ... and so it goes ... rape, plunder and destruction of the mud'Eire land ... clay O'Patros ... dirt of the oldest phart ... stinking legassy in space?

If you can unravel nothing such is what you get thin forms like the Arab figure for "i" or 1, a duality ... isn't that just de duce'd? But only if you have proper desire ...

There was a time in my life when I might have agreed with you - but as I have gotten older I cannot utimately reconcile the success of natural science in demonstrating that it is capable of coming up with good explanations for everything, and the failure of our god's to do the same. Kierkegaard’s “leap of faith” and a compartamentalization of realms into the metaphysical and natural may have worked once, but now I find the mental gymnastics underlying that to be ultimately unsatisfying. I see placing faith in any metaphysical framework with zero empirical support as an act of solipsism, intellectual masturbation if you would. Evolutionary psychology has gone a long way in helping us understand why we developed a mind/body duality and why our religious feelings tend towards self-centredness. We are innately drawn to the conclusion that there must be cosmic forces at play – that we, or at least our personal universe matter. It may be depressing that nature is indifferent to us, but perhaps us accepting that is just a matter of us growing up.

Hi turtlechurch: Welcome to wondercafe!

Just scanned your website. Interesting stuff! Will read it more thoroughly when I have more time.

ARM ET AL:

The following is the the result of a civil conversation I was able to have with Lois, a positive and open-minded writer at the Center For Inquiry, where many on all sides just want to kick ass. I recently wrote Lois, the following:

The post can be found at:
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewreply/178613/

=====

Thanks, Lois! Here is some basic information about The United Church of Canada, in which I was ordained in 1953--I was 23:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Canada (UCC).
 

The above is a well-detailed article about many things about the UCC. The following are just a few selected quotes from the article:

===============

INAUGURATION 

"The United Church of Canada is an amalgamation of the Union of Methodists, Presbyterian and Congregational Churches. With the three denominations now in agreement about uniting, the church leaders approached the government of Canada to pass legislation concerning transfer of property rights. The legislation passed, June 27, 1924 and was effective June 10, 1925.
 

"The United Church of Canada was inaugurated at a large worship service at Toronto's Mutual Street Arena on June 10, 1925. ...and, for those interested, the details continue.
==========================================
IN STRUCTURE
 

"In structure, the United Church has a "bottom-up" governance, where the congregation selects its clergy, rather than clergy being appointed by a bishop or other body. The policies of the church are inclusive and liberal: there are no restrictions of gender, sexual orientation or marital status for a person considering entering the ministry; interfaith marriages are recognized; communion is offered to all Christian adults and children, regardless of denomination or age."
 

BELIEFS AND PRACTICES

For example, THE BIBLE
"The United Church believes that the Bible is central to the Christian faith and was written by people who were inspired by God, but the stories told in the Bible should not all be taken literally. The church also believes that the circumstances under which the books of the Bible were written were of a particular place and time, and some things cannot be reconciled with our lives today, such as slavery."
 

INCLUSIVENESS

"Remembering that Jesus was reported to have welcomed tax collectors, prostitutes and other "undesirables" to his table, the church attempts to welcome everyone, regardless of age, race, class, gender, sexual orientation, or physical ability. In the same manner, there is also no restriction on those interested in entering ministry."
 

Yes, I am sure that agnostics and atheists are also included in the UCC. Over the years of my ministry, I made a special point of encouraging questioning and honest skepticism.
 

At the end of my first pastorate, I toyed with the idea of leaving the ministry and becoming a psychologist, in keeping with the major I did as an undergrad.
 

But then, in 1954-1955, thanks to a scholarship (two years) and guided by professors from Boston, Harvard and Union, NY, schools of theology I did a post graduate degree, at BOSTON UNIVERSITY,  in THE HISTORY OF IDEAS AND WORLD RELIGIONS. Then, and the years that followed, I read widely in philosophy, ethics, morals, psychology, sociology, and the like, including the practical application of things I learned. I did a lot of pastoral counselling with people who could not afford expensive psychiatry.
 

THEN, THIS HAPPENED

At first I thought that hypnosis was a lot of hocus pocus associated with stage magicians, weird movies and the occult. Without going into details, here, as to how it all happened: In the early 1960's, with the help of the Religion Editor of the Toronto Star, I stumbled on a lot of fascinating information about hypnotism--something that had intrigued me since my student days.
 

This led me delve into the fascinating history of the art and to read about the work of practitioners like the great American psychiatrist, Milton Erickson, MD. I even got to meet and know some very interesting contemporaries of mine, including clergy, who told me they used it as part of their career. One clergy hypnotist and writer said that the Bible is filled with stories that involve this art, and that Jesus used it to do many of what we call miracles. Yes, when I took a close look, I found that many verses make reference to the trance state. 
 

One final comment: This experience framed how I did the rest of my pastoral ministry up to this present moment, including 20 years of retirement from the actual pastorate. In my opinion, ministers who really love their ministry never retire from doing it.

=====================

Yes Lois, it is good to hear you say to me:

"As long a you’re not one of them, I’m happy to discuss religion with you." By the way, I sincerely welcome civil comments and questions, from anyone.

By "One of them" Lois is referring to "Rational Thinker", I think he is a narrow Christian, who like to kick atheists and call them "embittered".

We, the post-war generation of Germans, had to pay a heavy price for the sins of our fathers. Actually, it is not yet over. Every year on Rembrance Day we are reminded of how evil our fathers were, and have to experience shame and guilt all over again.

Do those who self-righteously lord it over us hapless and innocent post-war Germans, over and over again, ever think of that?

Hi Linds:

To me, a sin is a mistake, which can be remedied by recognizing and not repeating it. A mistake can become evil when it is not recognised as a mistake but repeated and re-enforced.

My father was a Nazi. He got heavily indoctrinated into the Nazi ideology, and had no access to alternative information. After the war he was a good provider and father, but we often clashed over his ethnic and racist ideas. One of the reasons I left Germany was to get away from the ethnic squabbles.

I never agreed with what the Nazis did, I had no part in it, and I do not feel personally responsible for it. But, like most Germans of the post-war generation, I bore my share of the collective guilt and shame for the horrors the Nazi-led German nation had committed against Jews and other people.

When I came to Canada, I thought that here it did not matter where one was from. But every year on Remembrance Day the evils perpetrated by Germans get emphasized, the victory of the Allies over Germany celebrated, and Canadians of German origin have cause to hang their heads in shame.

I wonder whether the victors ever think about that when they glory in their victories?

Yes thought is an enigma that few ever explore due to the stipulations of the fathers of the church (Genesis 2) who considered common people shouldn't know or think anything.

When one considers that thought is innocuous by some experts in psychological field ... is loss of thought like wraught apple contained in a barrel of monkeys? Again some aping is noted ... as the role models hold firm ... that they didn't do evil ... they didn't even know it!

Where would creation put such raptured thoughts ... in the pit of devoid? Look up we are steered by the powerful devoid and despise the sublime ... what was once called aÐ'm-ism ... undelying forces of the myth. It could be a mental case that's out of here, a mere alien and the bible speaks favourably about the stranger ... as it is a strange book to most that swear bi-it ... a convoluted curse? In  mental space all is up set ... like Calvin and Hobbes ... but this might be just reciprocation of an emotional state!

You have to go some to resolve this ... gets one beyond fixation ... the root word of metà ... in koine Greek ... a rich vernacular language and you know how the gods and nobles feel about common coins ... mites, sous, and what that adds up tu ... integral wee things? That' sus ...