Ted
Faith versus Facts
Posted on: 08/07/2013 16:58
I came across this thought provoking article that certainly deserves discussion on this forum.
Ted
I came across this thought provoking article that certainly deserves discussion on this forum.
Comments
RitaTG
Posted on: 08/07/2013 17:05
Ted ... you forgot the link......
Regards
Rita
chansen
Posted on: 08/07/2013 17:17
Is this the one?
Debates about the nature and value of faith occupy a great deal of time in conversations between Christians and atheists — and it's a frequent subject for believers as well. It's not a concept that has been given an especially coherent and straightforward definition, unfortunately, and that's especially serious given just how central "faith" is to so many religions. How can they insist on the importance of "faith" unless they can reliably distinguish between faith and non-faith?
One problem I keep seeing is how religious believers try to apply the label "faith" where it clearly doesn't belong. Don Boudreaux has addressed the manner thus:
Modern sciences, whether the natural sciences or social sciences, rely upon facts and eschew faith as a matter of principle. It doesn't always work that way in reality, especially in the social sciences, because humans are imperfect. Despite the imperfections, though, the principle remains the same: facts, reason, and reality are the basis arriving at conclusions and making decisions. Faith isn't supposed to enter into it at all.
In many religions, however, just the opposite is the case. With Christianity in particular "faith" is elevated to a matter of great principle. Christians value believing in the tenets of their religion not merely in spite of the absence of rational, empirical reasons but even sometimes in the face of contrary evidence. Why, then, is there such are huge industry of Christian apologists trying to prove that their beliefs are supported by reason and evidence?
Christian Apologetics vs. Christian Faith
That's a very good question. In truth, it would appear that much in the way of standard apologetics contradicts the basic Christian principle that one must believe in Christianity based upon faith. This isn't the case for those apologists who simply try to argue that the existence of some sort of god is more likely than not, but it is definitely the case for those who try to prove hat the gospel records are historically accurate and that Jesus was definitely the Son of God.
Don Boudreaux, I think, offers a nice contrast between the nature of facts and faith — he's sharply critical, but he's making a needed criticism that has a great deal of truth to it. The context of his observations here doesn't have anything to do with religion and it is certainly fair to note that people have this sort of "faith" in far more things than just religious doctrines.
There are large numbers of political, social, and personal beliefs that people hold with what can only be described as "faith." People may think that facts and reason are on their side, at least in some cases, but in reality "faith" is the only really significant factor. This is something that both atheists and theists can fall victim to.
In the case of religion, though, we get the conflict described above. People say that they have "faith" in the tenets of their religions, but at the same time they also think that their religious beliefs are amply supported by reason, logic, and evidence. I suspect that this is a product of the modern era. Did believers in the Middle Ages worry about such things? Doubtful. Today, however, we live in an era where science and reason have acquired tremendous importance and authority — and for good reason, tool As a consequence, people are accustomed to measuring all of their ideas against those standards — even religion.
Unfortunately for them, traditional religion doesn't really measure up to the standards of science, reason, and logic. Traditional religion wasn't developed in a context where modern science set the standards, though, so that's hardly a surprise. As a result, people have abandoned the "real" faith that is supposed to exist in the absence of evidence or rationality. Indeed, it seems unlikely that many believers today will even try to reclaim such a faith, much less value it as anything more than a distant ideal.
Source
Arminius
Posted on: 08/07/2013 22:12
Ted ... you forgot the link......
Regards
Rita
Hi Rita:
I clicked on "thought provoking article" and got there.
Looks like an "emergent," "progressive" or "emerging" Christian movement, only a bit more traditional or conservative than the progressive Christian movement I know here in Canada. Perhaps the American cousin of our progressive Christian movement?
Anyway, although I abide by the teachings of Jesus, and do identify myself as a follower of Jesus, I am not into the atonement theologies or Christologies that were created by Paul and others after Jesus' death.
Mendalla
Posted on: 08/07/2013 22:37
Ah, it's Wondercafe's irritating inability to highlight embedded links again. I got burned by that in a thread starter once, too. You have to underline the embedded link yourself if you want to make it stand out.
Mendalla
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 08/07/2013 23:48
I came across this thought provoking article that certainly deserves discussion on this forum.
Excellent. That's nice to hear.
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 08/08/2013 02:38
I came across this thought provoking article that certainly deserves discussion on this forum.
excerpted from the link:
"The killing of God becomes the example of what all God’s children must be willing to suffer in order to bring peace on earth. "
A-men!
A-woman!
certainty is the death of life
Kimmio
Posted on: 08/08/2013 02:53
Great article.
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 08/08/2013 03:37
the writer Hisself
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 08/08/2013 08:35
Gives me faith in myth about the nothing and everything that's in there ... nothing being love, a vast abstract rapture and everything being all inclusive integral ... something that Romans and modern Christianity has trouble with ... non-inclusiveness or what was once called shunning ... and thus the bones down in the bay boy ... a mere sea or po'boies tome ... a pool of abstract myth or pure imagination out of which ... what is drawn, or druid!
There are those that don't even like alien words ... like Wilson's mood about my strange creations to throw people off the fax that I'm a tinkerer in the psyche theory, a sort of religion of my own ... in which one has to generate their own candles .. thus bees and candlestick makers, tinpots and wild fabrications ... so as in one poster's quote "leave me alone" you thinkers ... I am peacefully stuck in my emotional state of knowing little ... and thus the explicit nature of the bosun as a small dark soul ... but in the shades of the anonymous ... frightening things ... subtle thoughts underlying the BS? Gotta read into it and respond, react, whatever ... its unsocial not to ban Terre... although you could read into it indifferent to the mire there ... that's the dirt onite ...
I just knew there was something in there amongst all that toxic ole salt in de wells ... moderation lads ... too much ham 'isle be the death of you if you can't see through it ...
Did you know that Romans and Jews were the only people that had difficulty conceiving of the far ends of that line defining everything and nothing ... a'line bent into a circe? O ...... didn't know that! Should look into wit ... has an odd wend to it ...
So much for the Roman Judai'n empiric ... thus the fall ... of fey ethe (ð) but what comes down must bounce ... that's resilience in reflex ions ... das de light ... why the phesh got the name ithchii ... the drive to know it all from scratch creation ... that sound of de plume in de nite ... as his soul was smoke'n ...
Where there's smoke, there's ache, and fire ... but no cigar? That's another tale ... phesh Taurus ...
Bounce that off the inside of your hard place ... creation put one in the fore head of a beauty of creation that is numinous ... is that ithch'w fallen as omega de antes? With wiggle and squirm chi couldn't get Luce ... devil of a myth to understand ... a man called God? It's so unmanly ... something of de mudder perhaps ...
RitaTG
Posted on: 08/08/2013 08:58
I missed the link because it was not highlighted ....
Ah well .... now that I know I shall be more careful ....
As soon as I have some time I will review this article and respond.
Probably won't be until next week as we have a big family event to prepare for.
Regards
Rita
Arminius
Posted on: 08/08/2013 11:34
I came across this thought provoking article that certainly deserves discussion on this forum.
excerpted from the link:
"The killing of God becomes the example of what all God’s children must be willing to suffer in order to bring peace on earth. "
Yes, but I think the writer of the article meant it more in a Christological sense, with Jesus' cruel death on the cross being a substitutionary atonement for our sins. Not as "Atheism in the name of God," like Allan Watts said, or Meister Eckhart's "I pray to God to rid me of God," both of whom probably meant ridding oneself of traditional notions of "God."
If, however, the writer of the article meant to say that ridding oneself of the egocentric self is a necessary "ego sacrifice" or "ego death," necessary to bring peace on earth, then I fully agree.
But then why not say this simply and clearly rather than using the convoluted and potentially misleading terms of Christian theology?
MikePaterson
Posted on: 08/08/2013 11:56
Facts are delicious. They give us power. We ask a question… and every utilitarian question is answered with a rush of facts. It's like a slot machine that delivers every time. With these facts, we build bridges, bombs, computers, cars and factories. We gain the power to coerce where we can’t persuade, to govern what has never before been subjected. Facts are the stuff of information in an information-ruled age. Facts are “reality”.
And facts are infinite. There are more “facts” asleep in the Universe than we can compose questions for.
Our power, we are tempted to believe, is similarly unlimited. This fills us with delight, self-assurance and — as the energetic miners of inarguable facts — a sense of unfathomable greatness. Humanity will ultimately humble the whole Universe to its service.
There’s a legendary ring somewhere that has the power to make the happiest person sad, and the saddest person happy. It is engraved with the words “این نیز بگذرد”… “this too shall pass”.
Our problem isn’t the facts. Our problem is the questions we're capable of asking. Facts have become reduced to stuffing for the head and they can accumulate to the point where the head hurts.
But, long before the head hurts, the heart begins to sigh, the soul languishes… we can forget that we are human beings with capacities for wholeness that circumvent the vexing limitations of infinitudes of questions.
Facts are fenced in by the horizon of our capacitiy to ask questions. We and they are made of different stuff and we are not infinite beings, nor are they necessarily sentient. Our ancestors feared the dark, the forest, spiders, snakes and ghosts… but happily embraced war and violence, against each other and even against nature itself. Our ancestors were clearly mad. Facts must have meant nothing to them.
Collectively, though, we are as clearly mad: destroying forests and oceans, extinguishing darkness, striking out at spiders and snakes, turning ghosts into guilt and despond… who are we to gather facts that accelerate and empower our collective stupidity?
But it’s not the facts that do this, is it? It’s the questions.
It’s the silly questions and the shortsighted purposes to which we put them.
Some questions yield facts that thrill us, that give meaning to life, that fill us with awe, that deepen our curiosity, that teach us empathy and sympathy, that draw us into closeness with each other and with other creatures every bit as miraculous as ourselves… facts that still our fears and moderate our compulsions. Are these celebrated? Are these sorts of facts manifest in our civil structures? Do they form our first priorities in life? Can we tell the difference between power and enablement? Can we dispel irrational fears?
To be unconcerned about meaning and the infinities of existence, but be afraid of spiders reveals a deep cognitive inconsistency… but, more seriously, it reveals a tragic suppression of spiritual and emotional impulse.
So where does “faith” come in? No-one can SAY anything of certitude about the mystery that lies beyond our intellectual and perceptual horizons. There ARE bound to be facts out there but we do not have questions that can reach them. We do not have the perceptual or intellectual powers to go there. We cannot travel there with our heads.
This is where faith speaks to our hearts and souls. It is NOT about “belief” or “believing”… “believing” (in the sense of claiming knowledge of the unknowable) is for fraudsters and the deeply confused. Faith is about finding healthy ways to engage with what is unknowable. It is about finding within ourselves capacities to ask better questions and adjust our lives to the fact of sentient existence. We are of nature. We are of spirit. We are emotions-laden creatures. We are social creatures. We are unique. We are born and die alone. We live in the world of our own unique consciousness.
Historically, denial has led to disaster. It ruins lives daily, in our own communities.
Faith simply orients us toward ourselves and “god” is the language that helps us to see ourselves in the context of a universe beyond imagining. “God” exists because “god” is always there — “god” refuses to go away. God is indeed great. And every human culture on this planet has ways of entering into that language and that conversation “with” as well as “about” “god”. It is a very necessary and healthy conversation. Denying “god” denies humanity.
“Facts” can add as much to these necessary conversations as they do to engineering an automobile. It’s the questions that matter.
It’s the questions …and learning the arts of formulating questions with the heart and the souls as well as with the intellect. The measure of faith is the capacity to frame those questions. It takes the same sort of competencies to ask questions with the heart, and from the soul, as it does from the mind. It involves discipline and discernment.
It takes work. It calls for self-knowledge, courage and self-awareness. It does NOT take superstition, convenient fancies, laziness, denial, lies, false claims or fear mongering. Faith is about finding EVERYTHING interesting, not just the stuff that generates more stuff.
Arminius
Posted on: 08/08/2013 12:38
When it comes to faith versus fact, many people believe the two to be the same: faith is the unquestioning belief in a one particular set of facts.
But facts are just our self-created interpretations of reality—illusions, if you will—whereas faith is a trust in an ultimate truth or dimension that is beyond mere facts.
"I never let the facts get in the way of faith."
-Anonymous
MikePaterson
Posted on: 08/08/2013 12:45
I'd say faith is based absolutely on questioning… curiosity is spiritually AND intellectually essential. And we continue to need better questions.
We grow in faith in the same way as we grow in knowledge. And limited faith is as dangerous and useless as limited knowledge.
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 08/08/2013 13:08
Facts are delicious... Far more so than are theories. Take Creation vs. Evolution for example.
MikePaterson
Posted on: 08/08/2013 13:22
Am I wrong, Jae, or did your curiosity and questions run dry 2,000+ years ago?
Creation versus evolution? That sounds like a lock into Greek duality. Maybe try some synthesis… and let sacred revelation continue to unfold.
Mendalla
Posted on: 08/08/2013 13:24
Right. Neither is a fact and both are profoundly true and meaningful.
One is a myth about the origins of the world and our relationship to God.
The other is a hypothesis, a best-fit explanation which has been well tested, about the facts we know about life on Earth and how it came to be in its current state.
Mendalla
RAN
Posted on: 08/08/2013 13:38
Faith is a biblical concern, and a biblical word. But I don't recall facts as a biblical concern. Certainly truth is a biblical concern, but truth and fact, though similar and related, are clearly not identical.
MikePaterson
Posted on: 08/08/2013 14:59
Faith is a LIFE concern, RAN: not merely Biblical — it's a clear theme in almost every culture you can name.
Even in just the Judaeo-Christian tradition, faith is a topic that crops up time and time again in all sorts of sources, not least the arts and countless notionally "secular" situations and sources.
And there are insirations to faith everywhere… not least science, and not least the beauty and abundance that's to be found everywhere, and all the more powerfully when it's amidst ugliness, pain, loss and dislocation.
RAN
Posted on: 08/08/2013 17:09
Yes Mike, I agree.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 08/09/2013 09:47
“این نیز بگذرد”…
Would those fixated and stuck in conservatism allow this to go by without damning the past as something we shouldn't know? Such is the command to live in the presence/present metaphor ... something that real people can't unravel ... then 2000 years ago the Romans rewrote the myths ...
Sets daimons to giggling and riff'n through the powers of darkness ... the prince of the past is somewhat of a satyr right? That couldn't be true for my parents never told me that! Must be dark or abstract or something ... not everything in mortal condition! That's the human state before recall sets in ... approximates ego, or eko, even echos of what's past ...
And the lady who hated sects became a wood nymph, hammadryad, under the tree ... myth of judai'n tammyr (roughly translated as power of the continuum)? But alas those stuck in the present wouldn't goth'ere ... too philosophical! (philosophie; the love of knowledge and wisdom! Does that encompass everything if you went there with a bit of Karyn?) Its a metaphor so you won't expect me to be thinking ... an out-of-here condition, or perhaps just OBI! When you are shunned by the paradigm (that's eM)!
Could an abstract man hide severe thoughts about what's lost, or Luce'ð; like a person pondering censored or shunned books? At one time all books were off limits to common folk. Shreds of this belief still exist as some won't even explore the biblical archeology ... it could uncover some reason ...
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 08/09/2013 10:01
Does everything have logos ... or is that indeterminate reasoning of all-that-is ... God?
Thomas Moore stated that Eros, logos, esse, dharma, tao and pathos are all indeterminate ... something to look into ... or out of depending on where you are confined? If properly literal, would one be excluded from literacy as an extended dimension without end ... no last word? I must prepare myself for flight ... as I fear I'm am about to be be dunked in the infintie ... it is my call ... Gabriel; you there? Don't you love the supportive unknowns ... eve-angels? They are not to pound a mortal down but to float eM ... religion is off again in the avarice and green (eM are old) department!
This is fertile ground like that knight attempting to free that weaving lass in her tower ... a chimerii presentation of Goldn Myth? Creates curios in the realms of holy citii ... questioning where this silly myth came from ... condensed to curioscitii, and curiosity as mortals hate large and dark words ... substance of the underlying soul based in guerrilla warfare (kong, or gong) or monkey business regarding thoughts of pass'n stuff ...
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 08/09/2013 10:12
With a bit of imagination (formerly known as abstract, or animus) one can go anywhere with the substance of word ... it's indeterminate as it has been monkey'd with so much (redaction?) ...
Back to the 3 monkey idée, an unspeakable law as taught youngsters ... limiting their desire to deal with the anonymous god ... that which is poorly understood by mortals in a limiting way ... a sic pathology?
If you enter the darkness do so with care ... I could be sleeping there as a near-dead rabi'ð thing that could jump up and bite ye ... this is the route of the denied mined ... really Pi'seð ever since it was allowed to go by in Genesis as Pison ... one of 3 other rivers requiring deeper interpretation ... as a place of light ... a vegetative glow to seaman after being shanghai'd ... by a mire lass?
One should know their myths ... and the hidden dangers ... like Eros; rising like a storm ... the god of Babylon ...
Arminius
Posted on: 08/09/2013 11:53
Yes Mike, I agree.
Same for me!
Ted
Posted on: 09/04/2013 17:13
Yes, I had not noticed that the embedded link did not show properly. Thank you to others who did recognize that the link is there and could thus give their thoughts on this item.