And just for fun:

 

A Quiz

 

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Quiz/What-Kind-of-Christian...

Hi waterfall,

 

 

Loving.

Joyful.

Peaceful.

Patient.

Gracious.

Faithful.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

RevJohn ,  these could be qualities of a good Muslim, wiccan etc. We don;t hold the monopoly, right?

I was thinking the same thing CH but then I did say IYO, so that's what it is for revjohn.

So many times I've heard people say, "so and so" is such a good Christian and then wondered what makes someone think that and what criteria they used.

Does "Compassionate" enter into it on its own  or is that subsumed under "Loving"? What about, given Jesus' teachings on the subject, "Forgiving"?

 

Mendalla

 

This is a bit of a quandry for inclusive, modern Christians. You don't want to appear boastful like the fundies, but you need something to differentiate yourselves from someone who is just a decent human being with no god or a different god.

 

"Faithful" separates you from good atheists, but "faithful" is the quality that, I think, matters least in that list. By a mile. A person can have all those other qualities without being faithful, and I think anyone can think of examples of faithful people who exhibit few or none of the other qualities.

 

Sounds good Mandella.

 

So far Christians sound wonderful.

 

Know any "good Christians"?

Quite a few, but I don't really think of them as "good Christians". I think of them as good people. That someone who is good is also a Christian seems more like a coincidence to me.

 

Good point and I have to agree.

 

I've met some professed Christians who exhibited some rather nasty and mean-spirited characteristics.

 

I think tolerance is a necesary quality in a world of confusion and enmity.

 

 

 

 

I know some people that I could almost guess were Christians just by how they carry themselves and speak (without mentioning their faith). I'm trying to think why I would know that.

 

Someone is not a Christian or even a theist could be "faithful". Faithful to their ideals, to their human relationships, and so on. And, of course, other religions can be faithful to their beliefs.

 

So I would tend to say that a good Christian is really not much different from a good anything else. To my mind, those Christians who do not exhibit such traits are not good Christians in a moral sense even if they may see themselves as "good" in terms of observing their faith.

 

Mendalla

 

 

I agree. In fact Chansen is a prime example -"a good person". He is definitely "a good anything else". Ummmmm where is John?

....good people .... regardless....

Now that by far is the highest compliment from another human being I could ever hope to attain!

I do hope to earn that someday ..... sincerely I do.....

coincidence that I am a christian ...... yes indeed.....

Well said.....

Rita

There are three. They must be good, they must be a Christian, and they must be a person.

That leaves Jesus out of the loop.

 

There's no such thing as a good Christian person.

 

Could you elaborate a bit more Lookin Up?

Other than God, is anyone good? (Mark 10:18)

 

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

 

 

Just when you think we're getting somewhere, the bible weighs in with something stupid.

 

 

Becoming a Christian doesn't make anyone good.  So to be a "good Christian person", one would have to be a good person to start with.  No one is.

 

If people were good in the first place there would have been no need for Jesus to die on the cross and Christianity never would have been.

If it makes you feel better, it serves less and less of a purpose now.

 

 

Make me feel better ?

Are you under the impression that I feel badly ?

You seem to be selling humanity short based on a story you fell in love with.

 

As they say, "nobody's perfect". I can buy that. People have flaws. Some larger and easier to spot than others. But to say nobody is good? Man, that's setting the bar for "good" pretty high.

 

If nobody's good, how hard must it be to even achieve mediocrity?

 

And why? Just because the bible says that in Mark? Who the hell cares? It's one line. If you're gonna fixate on the bible one line at a time and take it at face value and do what it says, you'll end up in jail.

 

Many years ago I saw a woman being interviewed on the news on TV.  Her son, who was a known drug dealer and gang leader, was killed in a shootout with the police.  She said, "My son was a good boy."  And I thought, "Lady, you have a different idea of good than I do."

 

It got me thinking about what good is and who sets the standard.  I wasn't saved at that point in my life but I realized that the standard of good varied greatly from one person to another. Everyone is good in their own eyes when they set their own standard.

Then I thought, "If God exists and there is a heaven and a hell, how close is my idea of good to his idea of good?"  I didn't like the answer very much so I dropped it.

 

It took many years for the issue to resurface and I came to the realization that the bar is far too high.

 

 

I knew I was not a good person long before I read the Bible.  It just took a long time for me to become honest with myself.  The Bible didn't convince me of my wickedness - my own conscience did.

 

Numerous sports injuries gave me a chance to see x-rays and models of joints and I saw the amazing design of the human body.  You can't have a design without there being a designer.

 

At that point, I became more receptive to the idea of the existence of God.  The Bible confirmed what I already knew about myself and told me the consequences.  I did not want those consequences so I surrendered and got saved.

 

I know that I'm not good.  So does every other Christian convert.  So there's no such thing as a good Christian person.  There are lots of people who think they are good just like I did at one time.  They need to start being honest with themselves.

 

Only those who don't want to go there.

 

Here's the beginning of the Gospel of Thomas:

 

"the kingdom is outside and inside you. When you know yourselves then you will be known and you will understand that you are the children of the living father.

But if you do not know yourselves then you live in poverty and embody poverty."

 

Knowing ourselves on a deeper level seems to be key to knowing Gods goodness.

 

HI crazyheart,

 

 

I would think these qualities are the same of all "good" people whatever their race, colour or creed.

 

The "Christian" part is where the most disagreement would come in.  I tend to go more literal with the word, understanding it to mean at its most literal an individual who is similar to Christ.  Others step away from that to define the word in terms of what beliefs are held and what actions are taken.

 

Quite frankly if Christians were more focussed on what it means to be "good" they'd probably be more attractive as "Christians"

 

Grace and  peace to you.

John

Hi crazyheart,

 

 

Yesterday I was off to a flying start by taking my 13 year old pal to be euthanized.  He's been in some distress for the last few weeks.  We had hoped it was something treatable, as time progressed it became obvious that it wasn't and he lost a lot of weight and was quite weak.

 

By 9:15am I was saying good bye to one of the best friends I have ever had and my go to pal for when I feel that full of crap is the one I left lying on a blanket at the Veterinarian's.

 

Then I was scrambling trying to finish an order of service for Sunday while preparing two funeral services for long-time members of the congregation.  One of those services will be under extreme circumstances due to complications of her life and I have instruction from the executor to prepare a simple graveside service (meaning keep it brief) and four phone calls from a friend of that person providing me with almost 4 hours of biographical material.

 

I imagine I am going to get a number of angry phone calls following that particular service because I failed to mention points D through X.

 

I posted my comments a little after 7pm.

Then I had an official board meeting which started at 7:30pm  went till 9:15pm a half an hour trip home with a dog blanket on my passenger seat which was extremely poor looking ahead on my part because I'll never have that friend riding shot gun with me again and then I got to mentally relive those last moments at the vets.

 

As soon as I got home I was completely mentally and emotional drained so I went to bed.

 

That's where i was yesterday.

 

Sorry I didn't get back to the question sooner.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

 

This is going to seem odd coming from me of all people, but I know preciesly what you mean.  I've run into the same thing with people from other faiths too, people who I'd bet my last dollar were observant Buddhists for example, or practicing Pagans.

 

Some people of faith have a kind of centeredness about them, for lack of a better term,  which comes across as clearly as if they were wearing a sandwhich board declaring their faith. And it does come across differently from people of different faiths. I can't explain why though.

 

Also one of the defining traits of people I consider to be good Christians is humility.  They don't feel the need to shout their faith or their acts from the rooftops as it were. 

We can't explain or think about these things for it is defined in man-gods book that thinking is bad. Now on that beyond that book is simply unreal ...

 

Come to think of it the tree of life was too, as it represented the tree of love if ... love is life ... do some of us over endulge and forget those beyond our centre? Sweet Nick o' De Mous in the biomass ...

 

Possibly just my chaotic mind as I sit here changing the effects of the fabrication thereof ... as it grows like rings in a tree ...

 

If you're eager there's something to cut your teeth on ... acre*isle*line expansion ... or near cell*uL*Os ... as something of depth ... like afar connections. Those limited don't get IT in their pure mortal form!

 

It is best to split a bit and observe divine things ...

:( I'm really sorry to hear that John. Speaking of good Christians, sometimes pets almost make better Christians than humans do. Loving, Joyful, Peaceful, Patient, Faithful... Dogs are so often "good people". I hope today goes better than yesterday, and tomorrow a little better still.

I would add, an attitude of service (not servitude)

revjohn ~ I am sorry for your loss

“When I say... "I am a Christian"
I'm not shouting "I'm clean livin'."
I'm whispering "I was lost,
Now I'm found and forgiven."

When I say... "I am a Christian"
I don't speak of this with pride.
I'm confessing that I stumble
and need Christ to be my guide.

When I say... "I am a Christian"
I'm not trying to be strong.
I'm professing that I'm weak
And need His strength to carry on.

When I say... "I am a Christian"
I'm not bragging of success.
I'm admitting I have failed
And need God to clean my mess.

When I say... "I am a Christian"
I'm not claiming to be perfect,
My flaws are far too visible
But, God believes I am worth it.

When I say... "I am a Christian"
I still feel the sting of pain.
I have my share of heartaches
So I call upon His name.

When I say... "I am a Christian"
I'm not holier than thou,
I'm just a simple sinner
Who received God's good grace, somehow.”

 

― Maya Angelou

. . . good Christian person . . . 

 

Three words that can be taken in a few different ways.

 

Is a person viewed "good" because they are a "Christian"?

 

Is a person viewed "Christian" because they are "good"?

 

Is a person viewed a "good Christian" because that is what they are - both a good person and a Christian person?

 

A few years ago our local funeral director shared his thoughts with me about my MIL.  He said to him she was for him the model of a good Christian.  He said this because of her loving, caring, serving manner to all in which she lived her life.  To him she lived the gospel of love.  As I think about it now, I wonder - did she live in this way because of her understanding of how a person of Christian faith should live?  Did she live in this way, because that is who she was in the core of her being?  I think a bit of both.  But, I also think she would have been the same caring, giving, serving person no matter what her faith preference was.

 

(I agree with him . . . she was indeed all these things.)

 

 

 

John, I'm very sorry. Losing a longtime pet is terrible. Those decisions are agonizing.

 

Gentle hugs John .......

I too have had to say such a goodbye to a longtime friend....

Almost a year ago now .... and it still hurts ..... as it should.....

You had quite a day for sure.....

May this day be gentler for you .....

Hugs

Rita

I had to say good bye to a long time friend the same way in 1997. He was 13 and we'd had him since he was 6 weeks old. Heart-breaking. I cried most of the day. My best buddy now will be 15 in less than 2 months, and he was about 7 weeks old when we got him. He's pretty healthy, but slowing down. His breed has a fairly long lifespan, but you know the day is somewhere on the horizon. Prayers for you, John.

Who ministers and cares for a Rev (John) in their sadness and loss, when they have to continue offering spiritual leadership to their congregations and community? WE (Wondercafers) DO! May many come alongside you and carry you through this personal time of loss for you. May the peace and grace you share with others return to you at this time, RevJohn.

-I agree with Lookingup---

 

Mar 10:18

And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

God Bless--airclean

  I'll grant you that there is no clear distinction or measure of a good person. I mostly look at being good as being a positive influence on your world, of subscribing to the ethics of recipricity (the golden rule), of having positive intentions and mostly positive reactions and outcomes.   You can't get too down on yourself when you screw up, and you can't get too full of yourself when you do well. It's a balancing act. The tendency for Christians that I've often seen is to live at the extremes. Some think they have the lock on morality and all the answers and can give them to you, while others focus on the whole depravity thing and how awful they are but how Jesus saves them. Some do both at the same time, which is incredible to watch.   I think faith beating you down and telling you you're not worthy is a cult-like approach. I think it's designed to make you weak and vulnerable to bad ideas and bad leaders, to the point that I get visibly upset with people who use this approach to recruitment.    

And if there isn't a God, why does it matter what he thinks? It's really, then, just a bunch of ancient con artists competing against other ancient con artists for your faith.

 

I think religion wants you beaten down so it can take credit for raising you back up. I think we have it within ourselves, or through any number of other means of external support, religion being just one of those.

 

Leave a broken hunk of concrete on a beach long enough, and you may have a sculpture when you come back. Or maybe not.

 

The argument from design doesn't work. There are simple and very observable reasons for this, from the facts that our knees break down too fast and our backs barely tolerate walking upright and we eat and breathe through the same tube, to the even more incompetant aspects of human "design" once you delve deeper into anatomy. Dawkins does a great job of explaining the case of the laryngeal nerve below (not for the squeamish):

 

Great, the bible scared you into believing. Because that's what a loving God would do - borrow a page from the mafia.

 

And there you go, beating yourself up again because, why? That's what God would want?

 

You don't seem to be a bad person to me, but I hardly know you well enough to make my own call on that. I don't know why we can't strive to be better people, measured by our evolved morality and not solely informed by ancient authors that we suck.

 

There are some good stories in the bible, but by those standards, we're a very good society in Canada. I haven't even had an offer on my daughter, never mind tried to sell her.

 

The book tries to tell us we're no good, when we're generally better than the book. Reading it is one thing. Believing everything it says, when so much of it is clearly bullshit, is quite another.

 

 

 

Rev John -- I am sorry to read about your dog. I know how you feel John as I have lost dogs as well . To me there, like children I have 3 right now all are girls. .My oldest is now 17. So you see I worry every day. God Bless---airclean33

Sorry for your loss, revjohn.  Our pets become members of our family and hold a special place in our hearts.

 

 

Hi Chansen -- I was going to post an and explain the christain walk.This song saids it much better than I.

sorry for the loss of your pet Rev John, I think of my Roxy shes getting old too and when i lose her its going to hurt cuz i love her so, 

sorry for the loss of your pet Rev John, I think of my Roxy shes getting old too and when i lose her its going to hurt cuz i love her so, 

Revjohn, I'm so sorry to hear about your beloved dog. My prayers are with you today as you grieve.

 

revjohn,

 

you're a totally hardcore, alive human being; a man willing to be vulnerable

 

(you're quite the catch)

 

 

that particular subset of humanity for whom another human being is just as important as they are, who is willing to sacrifice themselves (financially, emotionally, physically, mentally, socially etc) for their fellow human being ('g_d')

 

(i had another definition of Christian here on WC which some of the regulars really liked...)

Hi revjohn

 

I am sorry for the loss of your dog ----animals become family members ---their love is unconditional and their companionship never wavers  to loose that is a great loss ---- 

 

God Bless   

It occurs to me that "good" could be used in at least two ways here. One, meaning ethically moral. Two, as a quality - one person could be a fair Christian, another a good Christian, another a wery good Christian, depending on the lewel of dewoutness to beliwing in and liwing out the Christian faith. Such would, of course, hold true for other groups and their faiths as well.