Hi Mendalla:

I don't turn to the supernatural to see mystery. The natural world is mysterious enough for me.

Take energy, the substance of which everything consists. Energy is quite mysterious. We don't really know what it is, it is just somehow there, and not there. It is eternal, and has numerous and seemingly limitless forms and states that are constantly changing. Is there a transcendental force that causes energy to change its forms and states?

Energy occurs only in packages called "quanta," each of which contains twice/half as much energy as the next larger/smaller package. Energy is fragmented into countless forms, many of which are unique, but it also is an entity of inseparable, unchanging oneness or sameness: a singularity.

Energy acts and interacts seemingly randomly, but its random interactions are governed by universal laws or forces. What are these forces? Their effects can be observed and measured, and are assumed to be universal, but what exactly are they, and how did they come about? And is there a basic, creative force that created these forces, and set energy in motion?

We test our scientific analyses repeatedly, and they appear to be universally applicable and true, but the universe also appears to be in a state of inseparableness or synthesis. Synthesis is antithetical to analysis, and casts doubt on the all-applicability of our analyses.

There appear to be two types of cosmic truth, the cosmic analysis and the cosmic synthesis, both diametrically opposed to each other yet simultaneously true. This is a paradox.

Thus, the universe of dualities also is a universe of non-duality and paradox. The dualistic universe we can figure out via the method of analysis, but the non-dualistic universe can only be experienced in the pure, undifferentiated experience of reality.

Moreover, in the universe of duality, every observation is relative to the viewpoint of the observer. In science, the observing viewpoints are limited and regulated, but the human experience has a virtually limitless number of viewpoints and truths, every one of them arbitrarily created by the observer. Thus, every one of us lives in their own, uniquely created, conceptual universe.

What's more, scientists now tell us that the act of observing physically changes what we observe. Thus, every one of us not only lives in their own, uniquely created conceptual universe, but also in their own, uniquely created physical universe! Thus, we are a multiverse of limitless, uniquely created universes, but also one inseparable universe: a singularity. The Holy ONE?

Mystery upon mystery. Enough mystery to make one's head spin at the speed of light, eh? 

This is what the Bible says about mystery ---

Hi Mendalla,

From the Greek musterion meaning secret or something previously unknown but now revealed.  It may also mean secret truth or teaching, allegorical significance or the Christian religion.

Mystery is a relational quality of God.  In that there is knowledge of God which I am not privy to, there is more to God than I currently know but what it is of God that I do not know I will not know until it is revealed by God.

Mystery, the idea that there is more to God than I know ideally serves to keep the believer humble.  No matter how fervently we believe there is always room for God to reveal more which will force us to examine and re-examine that which we know.

It also forces me to spend time examining what is already known since mystery is what was previously unknown being revealed by God it seems sensible to focus on what God has already revealed rather than seeking for that which has not yet been revealed.

It can be.  Mystery moving forward is uncertainty.  We may or may not be faithfully following where the Holy Spirit is leading.  Mystery is something which can only be noted after the fact.  When God parts the curtain, so to speak and we see what lies behind.  We can never know moving forward until God parts the curtain and only then will we know if we guessed rightly or wrongly.

It is more honest to say.  I do not know than to forge ahead hoping we are already on a path which mystery will reveal to be faithful rather than mistaken.  Focussing on what is known rather than placing a hope in what is not known seems to be the better way to predict trajectories.

While mystery should keep us humble it should not keep us from speaking honestly and plainly.  If I believe such and such then I should hold that belief honestly rather than claiming it is mystery and refuse to examine it.

If I refuse to define what I see of God preferring that God be complete mystery then there is nothing which is definitely God or not God.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hebrews 11:1?

But, you already know a lot about God. You even know that you are one of the elect. You've eliminated much of the mystery already. That you can't demonstrate anything you think you know should alarm you, but it doesn't seem to.

How does the Calvinist who thinks he is one of the elect say that mystery about God keeps him humble? You've already claimed knowledge that you can not demonstrate and which has been denied to everyone else.

What is already known about God? What about the things that have already beed "revealed" about other gods?

I have repeatedly, repeatedly stated on this forum that it is more honest to say, "We don't know, but people in unfashionable clothing and lab coats are working on it." You're stealing my lines, even if it is an obvious truth. 

I don't mind you taking the line, but you don't say that you don't know about a great many things. You "know" a lot about God. You "know" about Jesus. You "know" the Holy Spirit. You "know" you're one of the elect. You are not saying, "I don't know" about a lot of things you can not demonstrate, so I don't see how you can play the humble card.

Examining mystery is what we should be doing. It's dogmatic beliefs that are not honest. Holding a profound belief about a god and your relationship with this god in the absense of evidence is not humble, and it is not honest.

And there isn't. That's honest. That's humble. We don't know squat about any god, because all we have on any god are musings and obviously false stories of dubious lineage.

You can absolutely pick up a Bible or a Qu'ran, or a Torah, or a Book of Mormon, or any other "holy" book and fill in the holes that are the remaining mysteries of the universe. But you can't pretend that doing so is honest, or humble.

What happens today, tomorrow, next week, next year, is a mystery. What kind of answers to the mystery do we reach for? What kind of future, that we do not know yet?

Hi chansen,

If we are using "a lot" in a comparable sense then it would depend on who or what I am being compared to.  I may know "a lot" more than others.  I definitely do not know "a lot" more than some others.  I certainly do not know all that there is to know about God.

Which only reveals something of what God had done.  It doesn't define all that God has done.

With respect to my salvation that is true.  There is more to life than my salvation.

You think you know a lot about me yet you haven't demonstrated an actual grasp of who I am.  That doesn't seem to slow you down any.

The lack of merit inherent in election keeps me humble.  I know that I do not deserve the grace of God and yet it has been extended to me.

Knowledge of one's election is not something which is denied any.  Can I explain how one comes to it?  Not like I can explain how math works.  I have testified to my experience in this matter.  To have a better picture of the impact such experience has had on my life you would have to have known me before and after.  I cannot go back in time and neither can you.  I cannot ever repeat the experience in the same manner.

Some accept the existence of God or gods and others deny the existence of God or gods.  The rest is built on the testimonies of those who claim encounter with God and whether we find those testimonies to be credible or not.

Some accept and others do not based pretty much on the same as above.

There is stuff that is beyond the reach of people in unfashionable clothing and lab coats.  Beauty, for example.  Define it, prove it.  You believe your wife to be beautiful.  I believe my wife to be beautiful.  What are the odds that science will prove either one of us right in our assertions?

Should I not believe that your wife is beautiful until such time as scientific evidence is presented on the matter?

Should you disbelieve that my wife is beautiful until such time as scientific evidence is presented on the matter?

And until you are attributed as the source I'm not stealing your lines.

While that might be true am I saying that I do know or am I saying "I believe?"

Again, depends on whom I am being compared with.  The whole point of an education is to learn things.

While true that is not me saying I know everything about all of the above.

Check out a dictionary definition and see how well it applies.

It is no less dogmatic a belief to insist that all things are testable and can be proven upon evidence.  Prove beauty.  Prove that it is as definable as gravity.

Can I prove that I have a relationship with God?

At the very least I can prove that I believe I do.  Can you prove that my relationship with God is dissimilar to my relationship with you here at WonderCafe.ca?  Can you prove that I have a relationship with anyone?  Can you define the quality of the relationships I have with any?  Sure, if you put me in a lab you can.  You can observe the phenomenon of friendship as it lights up my brain.  Is there nothing observable until that level of observation?

False in that they cannot be reproduced in the lab.  Not false in that they do not speak to something.  

If I am picking up anything and claiming that it tells the whole story and answers every question I'd agree with you I'm not being honest or humble.  If you can show me doing that then do so.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Mendalla,

Mystery is the reservoir from which we, relentlessly-curious creatures that we are, find, uncover, discover things...

It is the dark forest that we tame gradually, the darkness that we build campfires around, the ignorance that we slowly chip away at bit by bit generation by generation, one of the fuels for our passions and searchings...

Mystery is the constant reminder that I will never know, never experience everything.

Mystery spelunking has produced Godel's Incompleteness Theorem; Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus; Alan Turing's Halting Problem.

But mystery isn't something in and of itself to be cherished; that would be taking it literally ;3

I notice that among sombunall of humans, there seems to me to be a BS that rationality is cold and ignorance is warm & fuzzy...that could be an example of 'oh, its mysterious' hand-waving...

Cool thread, this

Mystery is that curious thing that mortals believe they know the infinite ... but when a person learns more ... we know we don't know much ... and that's the way it is but those that believe they know god will dispute it as this is their demonstation of conflict that would make a man's head spin when he knows that the depth of it all is overwealming to the point that mortals would drive you crazy over what they believe they know ... but we know they don't!

When faced with the two head-spinning characterizations of what we know and what we're ignorant to ... all that comes to mind is Caduceus a double coreolus effect that would stop a man in his trax ... it is said that sects or intercourse will clear your head as good as a cold shower ... so go out ... be sectarian ... demonstrate what you don't know as some phun Daze already have ... and don't know it ...

C'st Fini, or end time studt scatology, or etude in chit ... that really comes in wee bits until the end when it really hits hommoe as hommo-genized form! Well-blended to the point ... as thorny issue! Such things pokeda hole in the fabrication of pall ...

It's interesting how we can love God who is impossible to fully know, yet we do the same with everyone. Our children, our spouses, all of our relationships. Each of us holds a part that another can never fully know and that seems to fuel the intrigue and the desire to know the other better. The mystery keeps us in constant pursuit. Searching, asking questions and becoming better people as we find some answers along the way. It deepens our faith and our relationships. If we knew everything we would not learn and everything would be black and white. Fortunately we live in a world blessed with colours and possibilities that beckon us to look deeper.

Funny I was once told real, normal, people dreamed only in black and white ... no fringes allowed!

Then this could put me out there in the field as I see fantasy in hues ...

Your God cares about what you care about. Jae's God cares about what he cares about. It's not a great wonder why people are so attached to their gods, when their God is largely a reflection of themselves.

hear hear!

Hear , hear those small dark, silent creepers in the Shadow? Icons that bug ...

You have to carry a bit of your own Light (Jah-Zues?) to see while in that closed book situation tho'. Some don't got nun ... being that light energy is immaterial or perhaps just dark manna posing as dark energy ... purely unnatural the polynesians would have said. But again we looked after that classic wisdome didn't we? A little shunning goes a long way in the self-elimination racket ...

Metaphor; a parallel phor what? This is what is right beside us as intellect and we can't get beyond the line fed down as non-sense ... emotions only as they are a dark power!

This keeps peoples (eM) a bit stupid ... and then we can slip a thought to them there is no stupidity conspiracy which is easy given the light (or not) of the circumstance. It they are aware but don't understand they would be able to settle down ... and thus Homer Simpson is always a little on edge with his new clear device ... but is very mis-understood as asol' disturbance ... because we don't believe in sol' ... it was shelved in the normal business of state ... some 2000 years ago ... when the Lights went out down in GEO Gaia ... a relative comment on alchemy and how things relate in the human network ... they don't!

We praise isolationism especially when it comes to utilitarian causes for the good of all ... leading to a self-destructive tendancy that God doesn't have to worry about. Be'n purely emotional heh didn't in the first place ... leaving all that to second beta ... or hermeneutic!

Now would this cause a snow Job, a blackout conditon, or grey spatial entities as empty noodle'line? Causes phtttzzz is some areas that are generally or corporally unseen ... a strong expression biblically ... the unseen! IT being an abstract thought out there on the tear aura ... beyond our mortal state of thought or just mythological like Egypt and all their bugs ... things po' po'd or just dung bead eLs!

Is this a great way to put down processing literary chit among the common crowd (deMos?) so they won't know? That's flatline thinking or just flatlining ... allegory for OBI ... just out of 'ere intellectually! Emotional sorts get in a dark rant when coming headlong into a thinking beast ... what they fear most like Horatio Nelson ... he sailed out of line ... thus breaking up the Spanish Navel Effort!