God dislikes Legalism -----this is Jesus speaking ----this scripture defines legalism

I am only posting a few verses but this whole scripture is all about legalism ----you can read all here

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2011:37-54&version=NIV

Hi blackbelt1961,

By definition grace is unmerited favour.  It is a gift I do not deserve.

By definition it is strict adherence to the letter of the law.  It is merited favour, I get exactly what I deserve for good or for ill.

The difference is exactly the difference between grace and works.

If your religion rests on words like "must" or "have to" then you are preaching legalism.  If there are conditions on who may be saved and who will not be saved other than the sovereign will of God and God's free choice then you are preaching legalism.  Whenever God is limited by human choice or human action then you are preaching legalism.

Obedience to God's word is not problematic until it becomes the means by which God's favour enters into our lives rather than the proper response to God's grace which surprises.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Northrup Frye suggests (through Shakespeare, choqan point) ... that law is something made up by Kings to make legal that which was morally unjust. Consider aspiring nobles who kill kings to be next in line ... to stand on that line would make my head spin ... cyclicly ominous? Going that way fast allows one to look at their behind as in that snake that consumed its tail ... led to the formation of the Q Theo-rem ... rhyme (rye hymn)! You know the outside shunned bunch ... the marginalized from the physical gods ...

T'is a humbling th'aught ...and you know what authorities believe about thinkers?

They're out of here ... thus the beheading or crucifix ... and that dilemma was corrected ... by a man of hard heart nun-the-less ... beyond less? That's where god hid wisdom ... in the abstract Zoan!

By physical law you're not to go there ... heiros gamma carries on ... it is something to escape it ... by wit' saloon ... wits alone? You see them when stepping beyond normality ... the dyslexic advantage of the citi idi-oem (ide-ET) where phonetics can be come chaos ... brae in storm? The piping of Ba Toute ... that we Cajun woodsman ... gone north to kohl his heals ... ach chilly eaze ...

Legalism to me is us trying to make ourselves righteous before God through our actions --no faith is required in legalism

Grace requires faith and through Faith we are made righteous not by any works we try to do ---We are made righteous because God says we are righteous by Grace through Faith

Religion is guilty of telling us that the way we act makes us righteous so we think that by serving others ---singing in the quire ----going to church every Sunday that is enough to make us righteous ---- we do it cause we are suppose in God's eyes these things require no Faith -----and these are all good things to do but it doesn't make us righteous ----it makes us feel that we are righteous ----

This to me is part of the problem that churches are failing as they put pressure on how we should act ----still keeping the Law as their main teaching tools -----The law acted as a tutor until Jesus came to fulfill the Law and became the bridge to get from under the Law and cross over to Grace where all past --present and future sins are forgiven and we are free to serve God without Guilt or Condemnation ----Legalism keeps us in bondage ---when we don't measure up we are disappointed  and get down on ourselves or we are told we need to do more to get God to move in our lives ---- 

Hi Blackbelt------

Which Law did you want to talk about  B-B?

There's also license. A theology of law has God saying "these are the rules - follow them or else." A theology of license has God saying "do whatever you want. I don't care." A theology of grace ackowledges that God cares about our conduct deeply but is also merciful and forgiving and works through the Holy Spirit to bring about our transformation.

So your bottom line, then, is that you can be the best person in the world but if you're a faithful Jew, Muslim, Hindu, UU, etc., then all that is for nought because you lack faith in Jesus Christ? Or does any kind of faith work here?

Mendalla

Hi unsafe---Your post--

Grace requires faith and through Faith we are made righteous not by any works we try to do ---We are made righteous because God says we are righteous by Grace through Faith

_________________________

Airclean-- I agree here you are right. All have a movement  or choice to  make, that being  to have faith that (Jesus is The Christ.) It is why I'm called a Christain. Because I have that faith in Christ Jesus. Jesus said the father sends us to Him . I also believe that. We have not saved our selfs. For we all are Law breakers and have fail under the laws. But now we have been made Freed of  those Laws as we have been made children of the Kingdom . So GOD Himself can help us walk with Him. God Bless Sister.--airclean33

Hi Mendalla

I personally didn't make the rule of Faith God did ---I personally believe God's Word --if you have a problem with other religions and what they believe --then God is the only one you can get those answers from ---I follow Jesus Christ ---what others follow is up to them not me ----The Bible is very clear on what it says to me and that is what I personally believe and follow ---- I have no idea what kind of Faith other Religions rely on so I can't help you there ---

Peace

airclean33

The Challenge of Legalism is for the Jewish People as they were the only ones who were included in the Law ---Gentiles were never included in the Laws Of Moses ---The Gentiles were a lost breed of people -----no hope of reconciliation back to God at all --Hell bound until Jesus came ---so for the Gentiles it finally meant that they to would have a chance to reconcile themselves back to God and be saved -----

The Gentiles were offered only one Covenant ---the New Covenant of Grace ----so if you are not born Jewish than you are not part of the Covenant of Moses in the first place ---therefore Legalism is not a problem for Gentile People ----so breaking free from the Old is not a problem for  the Gentiles to  have to deal with as it did not apply to them ----

Some  Churches today are trying to mix the 2 Covenants --- by saying that Jesus saved us but we must keep the 10 commandments as it gives us a code of conduct -----when in fact the Bible calls the commandments the ministry of death ----

A lot of great responses , Grace speaks louder than words , I would find it hard to believe that scripture was written by man alone with no Spiritual inspiration from God , its pretty clear that if man were the author, legalism would have prevailed because of mans limit of understanding .

Grace plus the cross , no I’m sorry , Grace is the Cross in its visible form for man to physically see and understand that God like us parents say, do your best son and when you fail don’t be discourage I’m always with you.  Yet Like rivalry between  siblings legalism creeps in and we compete with our brothers and sisters .

I would say Gods Pretty smart 

Hi blackbelt   your quote   I would say Gods Pretty smart 

I second that one ----He had a plan from the start and so it goes on till the end --no man can stop it ----- 

I agree, there is no way man in its primitive yrs could ever foresee that Grace Trumps all 

Serious question time: It was God's plan to sacrifice his son?

Here is a question -----

So now that we are under Grace and no longer under the Law ---what purpose does the law serve if any ----and if we don't use the Laws as our moral compass then how do we know how we are suppose to act ?

Blackbelt, (or anyone), you never responded to my question a couple of weeks ago. Maybe this is better forum for it.

Would we need the law if we all just loved God and one another?

Interesting question, what do you think? I wonder about that too. Or was it God's hope that we would listen to the teachings of His son knowing full well that it could go either way? Was it possible that we could have been saved without the sacrifice if the world had just listened and followed in the way that Jesus taught?

Grace vs legalism:

Focussing on the finger rather than the moon

Grace: "wow, had a wicked hangover, but i still got to work, learned a few new things, ate a different lunch, spent some time with a new gal, listened to her riff on her tough life, i gave her a sammich. life is awesome..."

Legalism: "my hangover was due to my sinful nature.  why did i wake up?  why, lord, did you not take me in the night?  now i have to go to work, which is my duty to my fellow countryfolk.  i and my employer are both required to have two 15 minute breaks and 1 lunch break.  while i was at work, statistically 30,000 children starved and died.  we are failing as a species. etc etc etc"

Idol worship vs. living life fully

Spirit of the law vs. the word of the law

(noted, tho, that to live, one first has to learn what living is, to draw within the liness, before one can learn how to draw outside the lines...)

Legalism:  the only reason i can tie my shoe is because Jesus taught my (by dying, etc) and i must always thank Him and pay homage to him.  

Grace:  even though Jesus died so that i can tie my shoe, it is me who is doing the tying, who is choosing to tie and me who bears responsibility

Bonus:

Legalism:  Jesus & G_d must be belived as real entities for their works to be actualized in my world

Grace:  Through believing in loving your neighbour & holding that above all else, we bring heaven on Earth.  Jesus, G_d, Moses, etc I find to be deeply meaningful and what I find to be deeply meaningful is the energy/fuel of my acting in my world

and so it goes

Beautiful, Inanna. I never new that Jesus died so I can tie my shoes. that all makes sense now. :-)

:)

If you read this Book of 2 Corinthians ---it explains the law's use -----

Note in verse 15 ----This is a Promise ---- Does God break Promises ----NO ----No need for written Laws for those who have the Holy Spirit -------

Powerfull Stuff ----Thanks be to  God  for sending His Son to die for us all to ensure our freedom ---- 

Hi Inannawhimsay---You may have forgotten GOD don't care for shoes.

airclean33

If God is everything (descriptive word; LOGOS) would this require that we love and respect everything ... even our strange neighbours that appear inde dark class? In Greek that would be glass as c = g in Greek chaos of language transmutation! So say such things are castes ... out of where as brahmans? That's archetypical taurus ... nun-bullish perhaps just anonymous or autonomous as flat-lining, or corpo-really laid out!

This kind of thing makes one think, as UNSAFE said "these are my thoughts" but powerful minds are emotional things (medical people call the gonoidal brain as base for such a virtual essence/spirit). Was Moses a powerful (judi'n) soul that went off wondering in the outside ("san" "myth" in old languages) as a bit queer or perhaps the village (citi) idiom asa processing psyche once whetted at the well with a hint of Mariah? So the story as mythical goes on ... nothing can touch it!

The bible does say one should learn some strange tongues ... alas mostly we don't we hate eM! They appear strange ...

Such things (thinking entities) were considered evil by Romans but could be useful if balanced and under control. You would deny this if you didn't believe in the abstract conception of psyche/soul/mind as an intangible and thus ineffable ... nothing to speak about plainly in public as the brutal authorities don't like stray thoughts that appear as UFO's of OBI's, etc.

I guess they just aren't ... or something that mortals wished not to be so they are out of the "presence" question ... presently not here and therefore possibly in the past or all bent on the future as Rae-popping (subtle jacking) an appearance as an imaginary "i"  rising out of nothing? Now there's an abstract observance that's observing eu/you/yu'isle come to see ... as part and parcel of the wholly's elf ... very humble or subtle if I do say so ... thus the issue of connectivity of absolute and abstract in an impulse that is temporal ... quite timely, or is that quiet contemplative ruagh scrabble?

HG Wells in his study of Time Machinations was right on ... as anything critical is beyond emotional men. Could that be said differently or alternately as creative instead of cynical destruction modus ... from which we get motive expressions that go on ... possibly humis to outsiders and outlanders ... aliens? These things crank the universe ... as one worded but a very large word as in mega mole a' kohl! ÀÐ-mystic thought? Something unspeakable in church ... they don't accept wee things ...

Like shoes, san Dahls, anything as as soul full coverup action ... these feet were meant to be shared as the base of intelligence!

Alas Romans hated literate men and also couldn't stand isle-iteracy as this reflected in the halves of the folded mire ... it was fecund, or gravid ... producing many too many copies for their own good! In the marketplace it was considered wise ...

Something else to shush up ...

*giggle* i like your sense of humour there

Like my universalist forebearers, I am very much a believer in Grace as an unearned gift of God. Even requiring faith strikes me, ultimately, as a kind of legalism (you must believe the right things). God moves in the world and us in God's own way and there is simply no way we can ever move perfectly in the way that God does or may want us to. So, we need that gift of Grace to maintain that connection to The Divine. It is always there, always available, whether we are always open to it or not. The consequences of failing to follow God's laws and rules are not the loss of Grace, but the very real circumstances that are created by that failure (e.g. the environmental catastrophes caused by our mishandling of the world or the social catastrophes caused by our failure to live out Christ's teachings on how to treat each other).

I love my son regardless of what a royal pain in the butt he has become as a teenager. He does not need to earn that by following a bunch of laws and rules (we set laws and rules, but they do not decide if we love him and the consequences of breaking them are not eternal damnation, but whether he gets to play his computer games). Why would God not treat his children similarly?

Mendalla

So what is Legalism, and what is Grace, and how do we obey God without being legalistic and preaching to others?

Legalism is easy to define. In Christian terms, it is the law as originally laid down by Moses, and confirmed by and elaborated on by various prophets after him. In secular terms, it is the Law of civilized society.

Grace is more diffcult to define. Rev John defines it as an unmerited favour by God. I define it as the experience or awareness of ultimate reality, of our innate state of being. This experience is neither merited nor unmerited, it is just experiencing the pure, ontological or objective reality: reality as it really is, not as we think it is.

We can immerse ourselves in the ultimate reality when we refrain from conceptualising and just experience. This is when we experience God in its pure splendour. From my experience, the foremost feeling arising in this state is unity or at-one-ment, and with it universal compassion and unitive love. The sense of, and the belief in, a separate, individual or egocentric self are obliterated, and one feels at-one with everyone and everything, including the creative power of the universe.

Thus, the best way to define Grace is at-one-ment, and the best way to obey God is to act  intuitively and spontaneously, directly from the feeling of at-one-ment. Then we will act morally without being legalistic and without having resort to laying down the Law.

For people who are unable to do that, there is always the Law, with all its drawbacks. Those who don't like the Law can immerse themselves in the unity with God, and carry out God's will without having resort to the Law.

Thy kingdom come,

Thy will be done,

On earth as it is in heaven. ~~~

Here in Fredericton there is another controversy over laws required to control dogs that tend towards hostile behaviour ...

The police say they can't do anything without a law pertaining to it ... then if police are held to the law according to Job description ... leaves un-common sense as an entity that's just not present ... or other wise out of 'ere ...

Odd that's how Webster defined intellect for those that denied thought and knowledge in the swamp we call the human psyche ... go-shun? Space to be cultivated by river dewellers ... some say there are fore of them connected and in OLD English I believe they said forty as a unit and thus the Empirical Quart ... some say court in high spirits of putting down anything smaller are mire shots in the dark ... kinda rhummae ... or attica in Greek terminology! Things that people who like simple shouldn't know ...

A simple, serious question from me, and you duck it?

You had written above:

From here, it certainly looks like a rather crappy plan. Why plan for the sacrifice of his own son? Can you answer that?

Actually, in Christian terms legalism is not the law, nor does it relate necessarily to the law of Moses. The law is a code of conduct, legalism is a way of applying that code of conduct to one's relationship with God. Legalism is the belief that one must work to gain the favour and approval of God by obeying a set of rules and regulations - which could be the law of Moses, but which could also be any set of rules or regulations a particular community (or even individual) chooses.

I don't. It's most likely just the narrative of a story, so I'd have to get in the head of the author, who is unknown. Why did JK Rowling kill off some much loved characters? To keep it interesting? Might be the same reason here. You can't have a religion where everything is good and happy - blood and death and sacrifice and loss are common elements in religions.

If the world had just listened? He was one guy, in one of the most superstitious parts of the world. If God wanted to send a son down, why not China? They were more advanced and the story would have been written down sooner because their literacy rate was much higher. But no, it had to be one more belief in a region known for ridiculous beliefs.

Nothing here makes sense, and in this case, I'm suggesting there isn't even a hint of a plan in place. I'm asking unsafe how sacrificing a son is part of any father's grand plan.

Chansen

You are not interested in anything to do with God it is futile for me to address your questions or comments  ----

I leave you with this from God -----

I happen not to believe that self can purify self

While there is no cat and mouse game,  mans free will is an image of the Creator , Love requires free choice not an automated acceptance, The choice is ours, be with God or be absent of God. Remember, God holds many hats as Supreme being He also Holds the hat of Ultimate Judgement, Grace takes care of that problem.   In the fall of man it is not God who held back Grace, Grace always existed, eternally, it is mans stain (sin) if you will in his couscous mind that cause the separation, so God because of mans stain shows Grace in its physical form who is Jesus Christ for us to see that God is gracious.

As answered many times before , I do not share your belief.

I'll have to add Proverbs 26:4 to the drinking game.

Just another area where some Christians retreat in the face of good questions. Of course, many Christians, especially here, wouldn't make the claim that God is following some grand plan, because they know that sort of thing won't hold (flood) water.

If you won't answer for me, answer for those reading along, some not even posting.

Neo   your quote    why is God playing with us like a cat and mouse while we suffer in poverty and war

Neo ---God gave us humans complete control over this earth --not Spirits -----We are responsible for poverty and war on this earth ---passing the buck is a cop out ----We Humans need to start taking responsibility for what we have done and what we have caused here instead of blaming God of playing games with us  --We are the ones playing cat and mouse by chasing our own salvation and thinking we can do it all by ourselves ---

The World is in a Mess because of us and our Pride -----We think we are all that ---and we don't need a Higher Power to intervene ---We think we are so smart that we can fix everything that is wrong just by doing what we think is right -----

Question to you ---You have your own God in your Religion ---Where do you think your God is and why isn't your God saving your people from poverty and war who follow your beliefs ---- why do you blame the God of Israel and not your own God ----

Bingo 

Because he doesn't believe in an omniscient, omnipotent deity who does things like that? He believes in a God who tries to accomplish these things through us and tries to improve us? A wild guess, but I'm thinking that's about right.

The problem that people like Neo, chansen, and I see (and maybe this does not apply to how you see God, bb and unsafe) is that we hear time and time again people proclaiming how God saved them from a tornado (but wiped out their neighbours) or helped X win the big game (but did nothing for the homeless and poor in the neighbourhood around the stadium) or helped Y win the lottery (but did nothing for millions of other equally deserving persons). We are presented with a vision of God who seems to help out in trivial situations but not the big picture or who helps in a serious situation but excruciatingly selectively (the tornado example). If the Christian God is really omniscient, omnipotent, and loving, He should be able to do more than bless some football player with a Super Bowl ring and should certainly be able to save more than one property from a tornado.

So, we conclude that there is no God, that God exists but is a jerk, or that we must be dealing with a God like that of process theology who is not in total control of existence and requires us to step up and do something more than just praying and hoping.

Mendalla

How many millions of Christian testimonies since Jesus is out there? Of physical, emotional and spiritual healings ? So God Heals and then what, you die anyway , some disease will get you again , why is that? Because God cares more for your eternal soul than your temporal one.

The big picture is yet to come , you and I can only image, Only God knows for sure.

One thing I do know, God has forsaken the Leafs 

As for the Leafs, I'm not sure even God could save them. Fortunately, we still have a Canadian team to cheer for in the playoffs. GO HABS!!!!

Mendalla

Hi Mendalla

So just because your God is not  omniscient, omnipotent deity you you feel it is OK for you and others of different religions who believe in your Gods  to put all the Blame on The God of Israel  ----The God you wordhip is not in any way shape or form at fault for your poverty and wars -----Now Mendalla this is the worst COP OUT I have ever heard ----

Where is your God Mendalla --for your people ?????---keeping them from poverty and war ----

Peace

Which makes sense, to be honest, if you believe in an eternal soul. I'm agnostic on that point (it's a matter of faith) and don't really have a personal faith about it. Still doesn't explain why God would give a flying fig about a sports team over a starving child but from this, I'm thinking you don't believe in God helping sports teams.

Mendalla

I can't blame someone I don't believe in, unsafe. I have never blamed any God for anything. Not for war, not for poverty, not even for religious hatred and intolerance. I blame believers who expect God to either return and redo the world so that they feel we don't we have to do anything or who expect to just pray and then sit back and let God do it all for them. I just don't see God working that way. If we have agency, then God expects us to act and has called on us to act myriad time through prophets, through Jesus, and so on.

Mendalla

Because as you said above, we suffer because "we" are responsible for the wars and poverty. These are man made problems with man made solutions. But we can't solve these problems until we gain perspective as to who we really are. We are not just our physical bodies, we are not just our emotions, we are not just our thoughts, and we are not just the sum total of these things, e.g. our personal selves. We are, in essence, so much more than that. We are in total, part and parcel of this thing called Humanity. And Humanity is in turn part and parcel of something even greater. And this goes on and on.. we live and move and have our being within the body of God. We are God becoming aware of Itself. We suffer because we, as personalities, are not aware of this.

"Know thyself", and you will know God. Your own Bible makes this claim, that the truth of God is within. Yet you continue to expect Jesus to come floating down from the sky, presumably in the last few minutes of the world, and begin seperating the Christians from the rest of the world. It's not that simple. People are not saved according to their religion, people are saved according to their thoughts and actions and words. Mind, body and spirit are the temples through which we manifest. By being, as much as possible, sincere in our spirit and honest in mind we prepare ourselves for what will be. It's all we can do. What good does it do if you profess your love for Jesus yet hate your neighbour?

Know that Humanity is One, and treat "everyone" with respect and honour and we will have done "greater things". This is love on a universal scale. Expecting Jesus to come and save your soul is not what he taught in the Bible. Pick up your cross walk the path of awareness. Nobody will do it for you. Otherwise, what's the point of being here?

Hi Neo    your quote   ----"Know thyself", and you will know God. Your own Bible makes this claim, that the truth of God is within.

Neo ----knowing yourself does not mean you know God ---accepting His Son who Gives The Holy Spirit to dwell in you gives you the capacity to know spiritual things --it is up to us the individual to be hungry to know God by getting into His word and reading His word on who He Iis ---it takes work on our part to know God -----

Your Religion depends on self ---there is no scripture in the Bible that says Know yourself and you know God ----We are sinners and away from God until we accept His Son ----

And you didn't answer my question ----Where is your God when your people are living in poverty and are in wars ----

You claim your God brings awareness and love in the universe so where is the love when your people in your religion are in need and fighting -----

Peace

Hi Mendalla     your quote    If the Christian God is really omniscient, omnipotent, and loving, He should be able to do more than bless some football player with a Super Bowl ring and should certainly be able to save more than one property from a tornado.

 again a cop out ------and Mendalla you believe in something or someone so where is your belief and why isn't it helping with the wars and all the poverty in this world ----if you believe in yourself then you are your own god so --you as a god  should be able to save others from Poverty and wars ---after all a god is higher than us humans ---- 

Peace  

"How," Maitreya asks, "can you be content with the modes within which you now live: when millions starve and die in squalor; when the rich parade their wealth before the poor; when each man is his neighbor's enemy; when no man trusts his brother? For how long must you live thus, my friends? For how long can you support this degradation?"

How big is thyself?

Is it inflated in physical terms and very humble in metaphysical terms?

Then there is the physical incarnation of god and the Eire one ... blows through as Mariah ... a braod-based thought ... at least a thinking God as compared to pure physical gods of L'uv that are dark and naive ... as they refuse the activity as thought ... closeto a Solar Wind or Saul with spots ... you know imperfect with varied hues ... forty shades?

Neo   this is your quote       why is God playing with us like a cat and mouse while we suffer in poverty and war

You claim here that God ---the God of Israel is playing us like a cat and mouse game ----while we suffer in poverty and war ---

Now you have changed your view -----this is your quote       I thought I did answer this. We suffer our wars and poverty because we allow these things to happen

That's not what you say above -----you blame the  God of Israel for playing with us like a cat and mouse ----while we suffer in poverty and war ----

QUESTION NEO---below

So I am asking you ---where is the god you worship in your Religion when your people are suffering from poverty and wars ----are your people Rich and at Peace while the people of the God of Israel are in poverty and war---

Peace