Well we've just witnessed an election carried on by our neighbours to the south. The churches were in there like a dirty shirt, the problem is, it was for all the wrong reasons IMO.

I would love to see the church create more of its own voice against the injustices of the world instead of relying on a politicians platform to do it.

I think Christianity went wrong when it became politicised and allied itself with the imperialist powers-that-be (the ancient Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the various European Empires) and became a tool of imperialist expansion and exploitation. This unholy alliance between Church and State has become so entrenched that it is difficult to undo, even now, that we have a separation between Church and State.

The harm is not taking Christianity to politics, but in bringing politics into Christianity.

Yes, n4p, Christianity could have converted Empire to Christianity rather than letting Empire convert Christianity to Imperialism. Then Empire would have become a true Kingdom of God, eh?

We all agree. I had expected protest. I think the blatant corruption of New Brunswick and the failure of that corruption to stimulate any public reaction is getting to me. I lived most of life in Quebec there has always been a certain amount of corruption that the politicians act surprised at every decade or so. But the only difference in New Brunswick is that in Quebec the mafia offers better and cheaper service.

Hi Graeme,

Sorry, Graeme, but I can't get past that first presumption that some wars are good.

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

What I've found around here, Graeme, is that our little pacifist/peace movements gear themselves up at the onset of wars, then run out of steam, knowing that their protests fall on deaf ears.

Most peace activists are also members of some sort of spiritual community, and most of those churches/synagogues/mosques/etc. give lip service to universal human rights and social justice issues, including the goal of world peace. But then we don't actually DO anything, because we don't think there's anything we can do and we're afraid of losing our tax-exempt status for meddling in politics. It all seems quite disheartening to me sometimes.

Well, so far I'm agreeing with everybody. And it is disheartening.

I'm suggesting the church itself must be directly involved in politics. But I think church members need help in the practical work of applying moral teachings to life in general. I mean, it's okay to talk about Jesus washing the feet of his disciples. But we don't have much of daily opportunity to wash people's feet.

Two words. Tommy Douglas.

Theoretcally there  is an easy way to  separate the sacred from the profane, but it is difficult to in practise. Perhaps that is the ultimate challenge of being human and having faith = a Kieerkegaardian leap must be made

 That was my point in the WHO IS OPPRESSED AND WHO ARE THE OPRESSORS thread.

When organised religious groups become politically active, whether it it be boycott, or sigining petitions, then the lines forever blurred

Quakers are a good example of understanding that never becoming involved in secular politics is the best way to be true to their faith, even at risk of their own lives (at times).  Peace above shaky alliances.  Following a truthful passivist path to peace even when at risk (historically) for not buying into current politics.

not4prohet

 I never speak politics (not directly anyways). I do not beleive that Jesus did.
 

Yet, speaking of peace means peace and non-violence means non-violence...loving neighbour means loving...

Is it taking the easy way out?

IMO No! It is dangerous, in fact, it can be far more dangerous than joining the masses.
 

Hi graeme__You posted__

Well, so far I'm agreeing with everybody. And it is disheartening.

I'm suggesting the church itself must be directly involved in politics. But I think church members need help in the practical work of applying moral teachings to life in general. I mean, it's okay to talk about Jesus washing the feet of his disciples. But we don't have much of daily opportunity to wash people's feet.__________________________________________________________---------  Airclean__Post__ Sorry I had to post this way . It seem I have some problem with quote.Anyway graeme once more I believe you and I come close in thought here. I have one problem  though . I read in the Bible that those who followed Christ carred swords.__

	Luk 22:36	He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.
	Luk 22:37	For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, 'And he was reckoned with transgressors'; for what is written about me has its fulfilment."
	Luk 22:38	And they said, "Look, Lord, here are two swords." And he said to them, "It is enough."

--Now this is really kind of funny , you see, I another thread ,  just posted about turning the other cheek.Now scene we could have a sword in one hand , an a Bible in the other.I would say we must chose. When do we send meds? when do we send food ?When do we send arms? Then when do we send help.Should Christains be there to help the Goverment make that choice .I believe the answer is yes. But which Christains?  Here on wonder , we hardly ever agree. By the time we did , I afraid there would be no world.Unless The Church can be one again .  We can only pray, for those who must deside.Perhaps the Church could agree on that.__God Bless.

Right on. No argument from me.

In my opinion, almost everything Jesus said was political. There's a difference between politics and partisanship. I'm certainly not partisan from the pulpit (I've never told anyone how I think they should vote from the pulpit) but you can't speak about what a community should look like and how it should act without being political.

We are on the same page, RevStevenDavis.

Right on, Stephen.  Everything worthwhile that the church has to say is political, from choosing which master to serve through this is God's world to love one another as I loved you.  There is a difference between partisanship and political action or speech.  When Jesus criticized the religious leaders, that was a political action.  When he told parables that exposed the arbitrariness and abuse of power by economic leaders, such as the parables of the workers in the vinyard, the deceitful steward, and the talents, those were political parables.  When he describes the kingdom, all of his parables are indirect criticisms of the political and economic systems -- "this is the way God runs things -- notice how different it is from the way our leaders run things."  His question about whether the people killed by a falling tower or by vengeful Roman soliders took away the option of blaming people oppressed or brutalized by a system for their oppression or brutalization.

If we are serving God, we will not condone exploitation by the rich and powerful.

If this is God's world, then we need to speak out on issues related to the environment.

If we are to love one another, then we need to act to address the needs of all others, as indicated by his answer to the question, "Who is my neighbour?"  The Palestinians in the West Bank are my neighbours.  The First Nations people on reserves across Canada are my neighbours.  To say and do nothing is not an act of love, regardless of what some like Redhead may claim.

I disagree, I believe Jesus focused more on a spiritual revival..

Consider that Jesus did not get involved in politics of the day but was very political in the fact He promoted a new Kingdom, one that operated on ideals outside the realm of mankind's traditional ways. His politics were kingdom versus world man has created.

Waterfall, how do you understand the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the story of the Prodigal Father, the cleansing of the temple, many stories of healing and feeding the crowds, among many others?  All of these were dealing with external behaviour, not something mysteriously internal.

I understand that none of these could have occured without the presence of the Holy Spirit and I'm pretty sure "he's" not running for office.

"My Kingdom is not of this world" is a statement that is both spiritual and political at the same time. Waterfall, respectfully I think you're doing a disservice to the gospel by drawing such a clear distinction between what is political and what is spiritual. The two overlap substantially.

Jim Kenney,
 

I am of the mindset that Jesus did use parables and thus he led the horse to the water. He did not hold its head under.He did not force a bit in its mouth, etc.

He called on people to contemplate, to search themselves, to think about their faith....

It means that when I speak of issues, I tend to offer something and then they feed or do not feed, digest or not...  on their own.

Tomorrow, I will talk about peace. I will ask about those voices calling from the wilderness in our world.
The prophets who cry out, speak out, and feel nobody listens...
Those who, in our world, are in the wilderness and are crying out....  
I will ask how we prepare the way of the Lord....
 

I will offer things to show where my mind went, but they are ultimately questions and I hope that they come up with their own answers. 
 

My hope is that my thoughts are part of a conversation and only the start of the conversation, not the end of it.
 

In fact, I pray they do not all hop on something I say because if 35 people come up with 35 different prophetic voices, 35 different wilderness groupos, 35 different ways to prepare... then IMO all the better.

I wish church to quit being Empire and to quit thinking like Empire even as we rally against it.

"Running for office" has nothing to do with it. Now you're conflating "politics" with "partisanship." Politics has to do with how society is ordered and how relationships are conducted. "You must be born again" is a political statement. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's" is a political statement. They are also spiritual statements.

How is you must be born again, a political statement.....explain please?

"Political" refers to all aspects of governance: form of government; policies and laws, enforcement or non-enforcement of those policies and laws, status and treatment of different people, etc.  "polis" refers to people collectively; politics is how the collective functions.  Being born again shifts priority in relationship from the group to God, and this is a very political event.  This is part of the reason many families and friends become hostile to individuals who become 'born again'.

Dear Graeme Old Buddy,

Wars are driven by greed, hate, anger and lust.  All of these things are mental afflictions.  These mental afflictions arise as a consequnce of ignorance regarding the true nature of phenomena.  All phenomena in samsaric existence are instrinsically empty in that they can not help you achieve the ultimate goal of SAT-CHIT-ANANDA or never ending blissful consciousness.

What do we do with mentally deranged people?  We try to help them and we try to stop them from injuring others.  This is called compassion.  It is a two fold compassion.  It is compassion for the mentally deranged and compassion for those they might injure.

It is good to try and help others see the light.  It is also good to try and stop mentally deranged people from injuring others.  We do this out of a great compassion for people who are ignorant and in their ignorance mistake the objects of their greed, hate, anger and lust as something that will bring them never ending blissful consciousness.

Desire rises up in mentally deranged people.  It is desire for the objects of their greed, hate, anger and lust.  One can never attain bliss if one continues to harbor desire for objects of greed, hate anger and lust because such objects are empty of any ability to help in the achieving of bliss.  In fact, desire of any sort is an anethma to bliss.  This is because holding any desire means you are not satisfied with the way things are now and that lack of satisfaction is an impediment to experiencing bliss.

Desire represents an attachment to the thing you desire.  Any attachment is a hinderance in achieving never ending blissful consciousness.

However, if one must have a desire, let it be the desire to achieve enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings.  This is called bodhicitta.

Can you be truly happy or blissful if you know that there is even a single person who is suffering?  Of course not.  This explains why great souls such as Jesus, Buddha, et al reincarnate in various ages throughout time, again and again, bringing knowledge and the chance for enlightenment to those who have not learned the lessons of samsaric existence.  And those who have not yet learned the lessons of samsaric existence are compelled and drawn by their desire induced karma to reincarnate time and time again in a futile attempt to satisfy those desires until they acquire wisdom and enlightenment sufficient to allow them to overcome their desires.  Plainly, I am one of those people and I suspect you are too.  Hopefully, over time we will gradually awaken from our sleep of ignorance and join the ranks of the spiritually enlightened to become true bodhisattvas.

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

You beat me to the answer!

What he said!

Okay I'm not trying to be disagreeable but if you shift away from  political power aren't you claiming immunity from it's influence?

If you "shift away from political power" you are making a political statement.

Waterfall,
 

You can step away from a flu bug, but can you claim immunity from it's influence?
 

IMO You can shift away from politics, political power, all powers other than God.... but we still live in the world of politics, government, powers that be... We all live in a country, live in the world, work for a boss, watch TV ads, hear the radio, listen to ministers, read newspapers.... so, we are not immune. They are always there and always influencing us, whether we know it or not...
 

IMO We can want to be immune, strive to be...
I really don't think we can be immune. IMO We can be resistant  =)
 

Maybe that is why many who claim "born again" status talk about "backsliding"
 

Do you think you can be immune?

It's my understanding that immune means resistant. I believe it is within God's power to do anything....even to not be influenced by our politics.

I'm in general agreement with Rev. Steven and several others of his opinion.

I don't understand what being born again has to do with anything if it does not change one's attitudes and behaviour.

Is it possible to be born again and still support mass slaughter? Is it possible to be born again and stilll support corrupt government? Is it possible to be born again and not care wheher the poor are provided for?

If it is, then all the teachings of Jesus don't mean a thing. And I shall avoid all people so self-absorbed as to believe that being born again is all that counts.

So, waterfall, am I too assume you think all born agains are then "immune" to politics?

How do we then get born again politicians? Born again clergy endorsing and speaking for and on behalf of candidates?

How about being "immune" to porn, gay scandals, drug abuse, adultery....?

Really?

If as you say God can do all things, everything is within God's power, then are you saying God allows it?

Really?

You lost me on this one. I am arguing for God's immunity from a political influence.

Well, that would be fine - except nobody has suggested that politics should influence God. The suggestion has been that our faith in God should lead us to influence politics.

so what do you see is happening, graeme?

is it local?  regional?  global (eg perhaps other countries/cultures/civilizations are having simlar problems--Salafism, very Orthodox Jewry, Nohatforyou Israel, any more?)?

it looks like things like empathy, altruism are part of animal life itself (a more recent example http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/12/09/rats-empathy-chicago.html)...so what's up?

could life, events, happen in cycles?  dark ages, renaissance, dark ages?

how to compare things like the Arab Spring, OWS vs. the Afghanistan occupation and your perception of Christian church involvement with it?  could we be in the middle of a change in how the polis does things, from centralized authorities controlling opinion to more of an anarchotechnosocio way of dealing with morality, meaning, ideas, politics?  If so, then perhaps what is happening is the Old Guard, those who are the centralized authorities or heavily involved with them are trying to hold on, just like how those bits of Quebec try so hard to keep their culture & language?

i don't know...

Waterfall, I don't understand what you mean by political influence.  Are you claiming to be immune from your friends' values and attitudes about jobs, cars, careers, people of different races or sexual preferences or nationalities, money, savings, etc.?

Being born again refers to a process I described more fully in my post "The Garden".   It is akin to becoming enlightened.

When one becomes enlightened they are indeed immune to anything samsaric existence contains including politics.  This does not mean that they do not try to assist those less fortunate - i.e. the unenlightened.

We should strive to attain enlightenment and upon achieving it, utilize such attainment for the benefit of all sentient beings.  This is called bodhicitta.

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

Graeme, considering many Christian churches and leaders were opposed to NATO's actions in Afghanistan and Yugoslavia, your opening presumption is pretty questionable.  I think what I am reading into your comments is a blend of frustration at the lack of readiness by churches in NB to challenge abuse of power and privilege, and fear that, if churches don't do more for peace and justice, then there is little hope for society, either in NB or in general.  I can understand these feelings, but I trust God will eventually lead the human race to "The place that is just right!" (From "Simple Gifts").  If we go through one or many more dark ages on the way, so be it.  It is shameful that so much unnecessary violence and suffering happens, but that was true before the birth of Judaism, and it will continue for a while yet to come.

You're quite right about the frustration. However, I am not suggesting that churches themselves should DO something. I can readily see all the dangers in that. I am suggesting that the church should place faith issues in the context of the world we live in. In doing so, I would not think of the clergy as being revealers of any official stance, but as people who encourage consideration of the responsibilities of our faith as they arise in daily life. What the faithful choose to do is up to them.

This thinking developed when I asked a minister if we could form a current events group at the church. He paused, then expressed a hope that current events would be discussed in a Christian context.

My first reaction was dismissive. It raised suspicions that I was to temper my analysis with a sheen of pious chatter. But as I began the first meeting, I realized that was not his intent at all. And I realized, to my surprise, I had always based my analysis on Christian principles.  After years of distancing myself from the church, I suddenly realized I had never lost my faith at all.

So I am not suggesting the church should become an orgnized force for any partiular cause. I am suggesting that when it criticizes greed, it should not rely only on the story of the money changers in the temple. Again, that does not mean the sermon, for example, should be an attack on banks or corporations. What i do suggest is that it should encourage people to think about these things in a Cnristian context.

Nor do I think in need take a prominent place in the service. One of the sad things I've seen is the decline of church activities during the week. There is surely room there.

And, I suppose, I'm more than a little fed up with nominal Christians who can recite chapter and verse of The Bible - but really don't give a damn about what we are doing to the rest of the world - or even to our own people.

Is it not simply a matter of weighing current events against love thy neighbour as thyself?

No war ever had a side that thought they were the "bad guy".

I think that for those who are so caught up in reciting chapter and verse that they can't see what is going on in the world, they may not even see it if the message were more strongly presented in church. Some people will go to those meetings, events, sermons, and others won't go and won't get it, and more still will just go on Sunday mornings for the tea and cookies (and I am not knocking them necessarily, because they are going to be part of the community and to share in their own way). I think it's good to have meetings that address what's going on in the world from a faith standpoint. Very much so. But not having them doesn't keep a person who carries their faith in their heart from seeing those realities anyway--as you discovered it seems, Graeme.

I think what some people struggle with is that they look for someone, a leader in the physical  here and now, to tell them what to do about the things around them that bother their consciences--whether it be a preacher or a political figure--someone to follow. It's easy to spot what's wrong usually, but harder to figure out what to do about it.  So, if noone says anything, they don't do anything--and if someone makes a strong statement about one aspect of the big picture that resonates with them, they may follow blindly, ignoring what could be problematic about some of that person's attitudes and behaviours with regard to the rest of the big picture. Jesus spoke in generalities, and some specifics in the context of the time when he walked the earth--and he certainly "got" the big picture! But since the words  about him and what he said were written down 2000 years ago--it's harder to apply them to present reality and discern what to do. For example, the Bible talks about being peacemakers, but it doesn't lay out the specifics of how to go about it in a complex world. But, I think that's what we have to do regardless--to really apply critical thought to the things we hear, in church and outside of it.

The separation between religion and behaviour is astounding. No matter what the religion, people all over the world who claim a faith which advocates moral standards of behaviour act (seemingly unconciously) extraordinarily immoral ways.

I'm afraid that the question of how our churches deal with that has become something of an obsession with me. For example, I see little the economic, political  and social life of North America to convince that any morality of any faith is a factor in them.

graeme, thank you for your clear reply to my post.  I believe I understand more clearly what you want of churches, and I am sorry that even that does not seem to be provided in your community.  In this season of anticipation, hope, peace, joy and love, may you see more signs of what you desire.  If you have time, would you look at my posts at st-matthews-uc.org and let me know if I am succeeding, at least a liltle, in providing some of what you desire?  My posts for each week begin with a brief statement of what I believe about the upcoming them.  On Sundays, I add the story and message that I used that Sunday.

I'll be very happy to. Thank you.

Well, i signed up for all future blogs.

I am, though, distressed by your unseemly display of interest in exercise. (canoeing, mountain biking). It sets a bad example of clerical decorum.

Hi Graeme Old Buddy,

Exercise is important especially if done with purpose.  For this I recommend Tai Chi.

The movements of Tai Chi are within the range of most people and are usually done at a very slow pace.  The slowness of the movements is not as easy as it might sound.  It requires good balance and a certain amount of muscle control.  If done properly, there is also the coordination of the breath to incorporate as well.

After practicing on a regular basis you may becme sensitive to the movement of "Chi" around the body.  This is important.  Once you recognize the flow of Chi you can begin to purposefully direct it. 

After mastering the techinique you may be able to sink your Chi into the "Garden of Dan Tien" and create the "Elixer of Immortality".  See my post "The Garden".

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru