Most likely because of the time-honoured practice of plagiarism.  It is generally accepted that Matthew was written years after Mark.  There are parts that are lifted verbatim, as above.  To keep you on your toes, in other areas the gospels are contradictory.

Chansen, assuming he did say these words, why do you suppose he said them?

The words quoted are from Psalm 22, of course; the people who first read <atthew and Mark would be very familiar with them.  My take is that even though the psalm starts off as a downer, about two-thirds of the way through it, it suddenly becomes upbeat, and finishes on a note of triumph rather than defeat.  Those who knew the psalm would know the ending, too; could be the gospels' way of saying that though this minute things look bleak,  this is NOT the end of the story.  Whaddya think?  Does that make sense?

I think it is not unrelated to our recognition that shit happens, and an acknowledgement that it has to be faced and moved beyond because there is not other way but ahead. It is about going to the bitterest outer edges of human experience.

I also see a big part of the teaching of Jesus being about the embrace of ALL of human experience and the whole of life, and that somehow that embrace is what what leads us to the point of spiritual (not material) completion... and it is the experience of that completion that allows us to be whole, even retrospectively in our lives up to that point. What some call salvation is as instant as the acceptance.

We are fulfilled in our trust, openness and full loving engagement with ALL of life, not just the good bits.

This is where all of the other teaching seems to lead and point: the do-not-judge statements, the forgive, forgive, forgive statements, the trust in God, the fear nots, the search for truth, wisdom and light, the rejection of material gain, the concept of an inner kingdom and inner (rather than ritual) purity... purity again meaning engagement with others, especially with the poor, the weak, the sick and imprisoned -- all of those victims of withheld engagement -- through love.

The utterance of that extreme suffering is the wall from which we can bounce back... without it, suffering would be infinite, eternal. We can slam into that wall ourselves and the sum of our faith will give us the bounce to get beyond it intact, even through death. Maybe, instead of eternal life, which is too abstract when literalists get their hands on it, we should talk more about bounce. The truth of the dynamic behind bounce is that we are in constant motion, we cannot stop. It is the direction that matters... and it is about direction that we can make some very bad decisions.

And RED BARON is right: Psalm 22 the contemporary reference that is invoked by the words from the cross, and it is all about bounce. I suggest you take a reflective look at it, remembering its antiquity.

Well, you've got Jesus, who is His own father, so at least He has a better excuse for talking to Himself than most of us do.

Now, He (Jesus) finds himself nailed to two chunks of wood.  Not exactly the way most of us want to spend Easter.  It hurts, he's dying, so he does a spot of lashing out at His father, who conveniently is always a whisper away.

It is a heartwarming story of torture and death for the unsatisfactorily-explained benefit of others.  Why did God forsake Jesus?  It doesn't make sense.  For that matter, when Meatloaf sings, "I would do anything for love, but I won't do that?", what does "that" mean?

Contradictions draw us in, to look for some hidden meaning.  The author may have one in mind, or perhaps He or she wants to make you think and come up with your own.

waterfall - I believe he was quoting Psalm 22, which starts off "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?".  It may start off full of despair, but the Psalm ends in anticipation and hope that God will save His people.  In an oral culture like that of the time, I imagine that any Jews who overheard him would have recognized the Psalm from the opening line... like many of us know hymns or pop songs from the first line.

Thankyou all for your insightful explanations. So I understand that Jesus was fulfilling prophecy from the Psalm, but I'm still wondering why it was necessary to say this particular phrase at all.

Did God temporarily forsake him and turn away? And why the questioning from someone that holds all answers?

Chansen, I knew I could count on you for the atheistic perspective.

How do you explain the accuracy of Psalm 22, which was written 600 years before Christ was born, and prior to crucifixion being invented?

Psalm 22

¹ My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
       Why are you so far from saving me,
       so far from the words of my groaning?

 ² O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
       by night, and am not silent.

 ³ Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
       you are the praise of Israel. ^[a]

 ⁴ In you our fathers put their trust;
       they trusted and you delivered them.

 ⁵ They cried to you and were saved;
       in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

 ⁶ But I am a worm and not a man,
       scorned by men and despised by the people.

 ⁷ All who see me mock me;
       they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

 ⁸ "He trusts in the LORD;
       let the LORD rescue him.
       Let him deliver him,
       since he delights in him."

 ⁹ Yet you brought me out of the womb;
       you made me trust in you
       even at my mother's breast.

 ¹⁰ From birth I was cast upon you;
       from my mother's womb you have been my God.

 ¹¹ Do not be far from me,
       for trouble is near
       and there is no one to help.

 ¹² Many bulls surround me;
       strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

 ¹³ Roaring lions tearing their prey
       open their mouths wide against me.

 ¹⁴ I am poured out like water,
       and all my bones are out of joint.
       My heart has turned to wax;
       it has melted away within me.

 ¹⁵ My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
       and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
       you lay me ^[b] in the dust of death.

 ¹⁶ Dogs have surrounded me;
       a band of evil men has encircled me,
       they have pierced ^[c] my hands and my feet.

 ¹⁷ I can count all my bones;
       people stare and gloat over me.

 ¹⁸ They divide my garments among them
       and cast lots for my clothing.

 ¹⁹ But you, O LORD, be not far off;
       O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

 ²⁰ Deliver my life from the sword,
       my precious life from the power of the dogs.

 ²¹ Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
       save ^[d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

 ²² I will declare your name to my brothers;
       in the congregation I will praise you.

 ²³ You who fear the LORD, praise him!
       All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
       Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

 ²⁴ For he has not despised or disdained
       the suffering of the afflicted one;
       he has not hidden his face from him
       but has listened to his cry for help.

 ²⁵ From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
       before those who fear you ^[e] will I fulfill my vows.

 ²⁶ The poor will eat and be satisfied;
       they who seek the LORD will praise him—
       may your hearts live forever!

 ²⁷ All the ends of the earth
       will remember and turn to the LORD,
       and all the families of the nations
       will bow down before him,

 ²⁸ for dominion belongs to the LORD
       and he rules over the nations.

 ²⁹ All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
       all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
       those who cannot keep themselves alive.

 ³⁰ Posterity will serve him;
       future generations will be told about the Lord.

 ³¹ They will proclaim his righteousness
       to a people yet unborn—
       for he has done it.

When Matthew wrote his gospel some 10 years after Mark, he had a copy of Mark open on the desk in front of him as he wrote. We know this because of the 664 verses in Mark, Matthew included 606 of them, in one way or another, into his gospel. Luke did much the same.

And yes, these "last words' are lifted from a psalm. This is part of the literary tradition of haggadic midrash. Many other statements and scenarios in scripture are lifted in this way from earlier scripture.

waterfall

I'm not sure but that line may have been inserted by the writer  to agree with Old T. prophecy. As I understand it Jesus was crucified on a hill quite a few feet away from those who watched. Possibly only the Roman soldiers were close by enough to hear him? I picture it as being a noisy scene re jeering etc. Also we read that Jesus chose to die, lay down his own life,  but we don't know if he intended to die in this particular way at this particular time?  Perhaps he anticipated that God would somehow rescue him? I know Christianity makes a big thing out of the fact that he was silent in the face of death ( and Pilate)  before his accusers  but its not so unusual. Some of us have watched executions on TV  or read about them and the victims are usually silent.

Having said this I grew up in a  poor little village where faith in God was often all that kept the people alive. People didn't have access to doctors or go to hospital. When they suffered they identified with Jesus through poverty, illness etc. like we're seeing now in Haiti. My grandmother was always singing The Old Rugged Cross. Its in my blood and I sing it to myself sometimes when times get rough. I love that old hymn and also...... Rise Again. Wonderful faith and a glorious hope!

The Old Rugged Cross - Anne Murray

Rise Again

Hi Stardust, yes that's how I see the people of Haiti responding. Not so much, "why have you forsaken me", but a continued praise and full of God's assurance.

Jesus words are baffling me as example.

waterfall

You know my beliefs are all over the place but still I can't forget the traditional Jesus as presented to us in the NT. I lived in the country as a kid. My grandmother and I would go to visit an elderly lady who lived 2 miles from us through the woods literally. We would stay too late and come home in the dark. My grandmother was scared. She would recite The Lord is My Shepherd  all the way home. We believed that kept us safe. Faith is a powerful and wondrous thing!  I get chills when I hear the people in Haiti giving thanks to God. Its also why I was a Unicef volunteer for some years. I can understand the suffering  people's feelings.

P.S. I do think one reason people identify with the bible is because it is the story of God's relationship  with the Jews and their many failures. Most of us have had experiences of failure in our lives. It amazes me how the Jews passed down this book through the centuries. Its why I have to believe that parts of it are inspired. Why would people invent such stories and how? Its certainly unique. We read that Moses feared God. It doesn't jive at all with today's  popular books and beliefs. The God I believe in is within and yet God is also the Other or much greater than we  ourselves are.

Lemme get this straight:  The Jews who wrote what Christians call "The Old Testament", they foretold of a messiah, and list some things to be on the lookout for to make sure this messiah is the real deal.

Then, around 2000 years ago, we have stories that eerily match what was foretold in Psalm 22?  The unfortunate thing is, the Romans have no record of Jesus.  They were fantastic record keepers - we still have the receipts for their dry cleaning.  What we don't have, is a record of this execution, or anything about Jesus at all.

If one wanted to start a new religion around a dead man, fictional or not, and call him the "messiah", wouldn't it be in your best interests to have this messiah doing some things, and having some things done to him, as foretold in the Jewish bible?

As they say, "Hindsight is always 20-20."

Thanks Faerenach, I've never made the connection quite that way before . . . but yes, Jesus often quoted scripture as he taught, so it makes sense in the last act of teaching he did then also.

I also think, that if one believes both the humanity and the divinity of Jesus, that the part that was humanity would, just as we do, felt in our lowest, most terrifying, worst moments, that in some way God has forsaken us.  We might only be there for a second, but I know for myself there have been many times when I've questioned in low times whether God was still there or not.

Beloved, I've also thought about the human/divinity aspect about Jesus, BUT does he forget for a moment that he IS God?

I expect we would have our moments, but doesn't this seem to suggest that even Jesus had his doubts? I'm not sure I like that and obviously I don't understand it or how God would contradict that he is "always there" and Jesus wouldn't know it.

In each gospel there are different accounts of what was said.

Greetings!

One of the things I've come to terms with in my understanding of my humanity is that I personally do not always understand, nor can explain, things about God's divinity.  And so for me, the concept of Jesus being both divine and human is not one I fully understand nor can explain.

Although I can't explain and do not fully understand, I believe the human Jesus had doubts, as well as all the other struggles and pain we do as human beings.

If I believe in the humanity of Jesus, then I think, just like me, no matter how strong my belief, no matter how strong the presence of God in my life/me, could have had feelings of "why" "why me", "where are you God". Despite my knowing God is with me, there are times I can feel God is not - it is my feeling, not the reality.

In my human limited understanding of God, I cannot explain why Jesus, if one believes was also divine along with human, could not just rely on the divine part, and therefore wouldn't doubt.  But because I personally don't feel a need to have to be able to explain or understand everything about the divinity of God, I am okay with that.

Hope, peace, joy, love ...

chansen: your quote:

The unfortunate thing is, the Romans have no record of Jesus.  They were fantastic record keepers - we still have the receipts for their dry cleaning.  What we don't have, is a record of this execution, or anything about Jesus at all.

Would you by any chance happen to have a link on the Roman way of life back then?  I did have info. and I lost it. Its interesting. I think the Romans  under Pilate crucified  or killed 1000's of people ? Death records may not have been kept back then or the criminals weren't worthy of mention. As I understand it Pilate was so cruel that he eventually lost his position and he was shipped out.

I know I should just leave it alone and just accept the "mystery" of it all, but for some reason it's nagging at me lately.

This is a metaphorical story abot a guy who never existed who is having a crisis of faith.  God seemed to have forsaken him at his darkest hour.  Three days later God raises him from the dead showing him and everyone else in the story that God was really there all the time.

Then all is good.

The darkest hour is just before the dawn.   When you think you are alone wait and see what next week brings.  etc.

Chansen we do have this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_Bar-Serapion

I think it is when things "nag" at us that about our faith is when we learn and grow - sometimes we change our thinking/understanding and sometimes we just come back to a place we were at previously with more conviction.  I think we need to constantly explore our faith and understanding and allow ourselves to question what we believe.

Thanks Austen for the "other side".

Perhaps this is more about King David?

Yes, well, that cinches it, doesn't it?  A letter that references "a "wise king" who was executed by the Jews", that was written around the same time as Mark.

If Stardust is right, Pilate killed thousands.  If this is the best you've got to substantiate the existence of Jesus...

I think that's a great idea.  We should always be questioning.  It's accepting things on faith that we should be concerned about.

I think although we are to question, chansen, our beliefs and understandings are still "on faith" or "in faith", as I think more agree than not, that faith is not based on what is seen or proven.

Well, how can you call it "questioning" then?  It seems you want to bring these beliefs under scrutiny, then when you can't make further sense of them, you put them back in their box and internalize them again.  You may have technically questioned your faith, but if you don't want or require answers, why bother asking questions in the first place?

When I question my beliefs and bring them under scrutiny, I bring them to God . . . and trust God's direction and leading.  I always want and require answers, just sometimes the answers are not what I would expect.  Sometimes the answer guides to change my understanding and belief about something and sometimes it doesn't.

There are many views and beliefs I held over the course of my relationship with God that have changed because I questioned and sought answers and truth for myself, and there are some that I questioned but found for myself to be unchanged.

There are two reasons that I see for this famous line:

1. Assuming he was a real person, I would think that being executed by "The Man" after serving your God faithfully for years is probably a pretty good reason to cry out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" In other words, sounds to me a lot like Jesus being human.

2. As mentioned, it is a direct reference to Psalm 22 and that likely throws this straight into the meaningful story (i.e. mythology) category. The writer puts the words into his mouth as a way of calling attention to a Psalm that the writer feels is meaningful to the story.

Since I largely see Jesus Christ as a mythological figure (albeit an important one who carries a lot of meaning for me), I tend towards the latter explanation, but also love the way the former does make Jesus' humanity all too apparent.

And since the historicity of Jesus has come up here already, I'll say that I suspect there was a historical figure at the core of this story. He was likely a preacher and teacher who lived in Judaea and may have been executed by the Romans for some variation of rebellion or sedition. That is mostly conjecture, given the lack of independant documentary evidence for his existence (most references in Classical historians are to the cult of Jesus, not to Jesus himself).  However, the Gospels and other Christian writings cloak the figure in so much mythological/metaphorical language that the Jesus we know is really a mythological figure, a kind of living parable who invites us to seek wisdom and meaning in the stories of his life.

I think that the same phenomenon exists with many other religious/spiritual figures, including the patriarchs, the Buddha, and even some relatively contemporary figures. Are the facts of Mahatma Gandhi's life really as important to us as what he has come to symbolize in our culture? In a thousand years, will anyone care about the history of Gandhi or simply revel in and take meaning and inspiration from the stories that have been spun around him?

Mendalla

Isn't that like the teacher asking the student to grade his own essay?

You believe in God, and when that belief in God is challenged, you take that belief to God?

Does anyone else see a conflict of interest here?

 Pontius Pilate was the cruelest proconsul ever sent by Rome to Judea. He crucified hundreds perhaps thousands of innocent Jews for the most minor infractions. King Herod Agrippa I wrote a letter to the Emperor Caligula about Pilate’s “acts of violence…. provocations, corruption… continual murder of persons untried and uncondemned, and his never ending, endless and unbelievable cruelties.” Philo wrote of Pilate’s “violence, robberies… continuous executions without even the form of a trial, endless and intolerable cruelties.” Josephus, in Antiquities, shows that Pilate’s excessive murders and brutality were so severe that they eventually got him recalled to Rome in the year 36.

Terrible things happen in this world. Situations like this one in Haiti shake people to their cores and cause them to ask serious questions, such as: "If God is so good, how could he allow suffering?" or "Where was God?" or "Why has God forsaken us?" - indeed, some will even make judgments: "God is punishing Haiti for X reason."

Still, while it is understandable that a person would ask such a question at such a time as this, I don't think it could be deduced from the mere occurence of suffering that God has 'forsaken' anyone. Bad things happen in this world. When they do, all you can do is move forward. Many 'good' things can also come of out of the worst situations, as have occurred here. For instance, we see many nations of the world setting aside their differences to serve side by side in humanitarian efforts to rebuild Haiti, to care for the sick and suffering, and to give resources to sustain survival.  

This, to me, is truly remarkable. While in the scriptures we find no direct reasons as to why humanity experiences pain, we do find in it resources to enable us to have hope in trials rather than despair. We remember that suffering did not spare even God himself  through Jesus Christ on the cross.

Jesus was not crying out in despair due to the immense physical pain he was suffering. This pain paled in comparison to the experience of cosmic abandonment. At the moment when Jesus cried out "eloi eloi..." God had turned his face away from him, incurring the endless exclusion from God that humanity had merited on Jesus himself.

But that wasn't the end of the story. Jesus rose from the grave, defeating death in the process. So while we can expect to endure hardships in this short life on Earth, we can truly know that God is Immanuel - God with us.

And he has promised, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

Those words being quoted in Psalm 22 just add weight to the whole concept of midrash and midrashic writing.

Shalom

Mate

chansen: You are approaching this topic from at least 3 separate angles.

1. "We can't trust the Bible because it's full of contradictions and even plagiarism."

2. "Jesus was not an actual person in history."

3. "God does not exist."

Which one do you want to talk about first?

There is of course no Roman recod of Jesus.  They did not reord the lives of peasants or rabble rousers in general.  Nor did they record the names of the thousands that were crucified.  Why would they?  The aristocrats cleaning bill was considered mor important.

Who will remember any of us 2000 years hence.  That being said we do keep even more thorough records like births and deaths but what about those in 3rd world countries?

Shalom

Mate

Can anyone picture a beaten dying many hanging on a cross considering what his final words should be?  "Now let me see will I take those words from . . . or should I use . . .?"

Shalom

Mate.

Which bit would you prefer to chomp at first?  I'm away for the weekend, so knock yourself out.

"Aaaalways look on the bright side of life"

*whistle*

chansen: Well I have things to do too this weekend, so if you won't be around to engage with me, then I won't need to set aside extra time to answer your specific questions. I would be glad to address these topics with you however, whenever you like.

I agree with this.

Nothing underlies Jesus's humanity more than this. If you were about to be crucified, wouldn't you be afraid and feel deserted by God?

As regards the mythical aspect, any person of faith - when facing their own dark night of the soul and suffering -can relate easily to this cry of anguish.

I will be interested in hearing any other explanations that are out there. I won't be able to comment as much this weekend either because I will be having my two grandson's with me. I will try to check in later in the day though.

It isn't my belief in God that, it is my beliefs about God, humankind, and our relationship with one another, that I take to God.  If I didn't believe in God, I wouldn't be taking anything to God.

It seems to me that our real question ought to be "What does this mean?" not "Did it really happen this way?"

Shalom

Mate

I think, if I read him correctly, that chansen is asking about how you could question that core belief in God if you take everything to God. If you don't question that core belief, then how can you say you've questioned your faith. I like this theme of questioning (okay, it's near and dear to my UU heart) and I've spun off a thread with some of my thoughts on the broader issue of questioning one's faith: http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/religion-and-faith/questioning-faith.

Mendalla

It isn't my faith in God, as to whether or not God exists, that I question - I believe God exists.  The things I question are about who God is, my relationship with God, God's relationship with humankind, and my relationship with humankind.

chansen : (thanks to JRT also for the reply)

I did find some info. on  historical Roman law etc. so I'll post it just for the record. When I googled Pilate its too mixed up with Jesus  and the NT.

Can anyone picture a beaten dying many hanging on a cross considering what his final words should be?  "Now let me see will I take those words from . . . or should I use . . .?"

 No Mate No one would think a man dieing on the cross . Would Remember the very words that were written many years befor Psalms  22. So you must think. Matthew and Mark are Laires. Again there father being Santon ?Let us not forget the  writer of Psalms

airclean

I do not think the evangelists were liars.  They wrote history rememberd, from oral stories carried down, from history metaphorized and with midrash in mind.  The gospels were never intended to be biographies.  They were written for a particular audience at a particular time and reflect what the church of the day had come to believe about Jesus.

Shalom

Mate

I do not think the evangelists were liars.  They wrote history rememberd, from oral stories carried down, from history metaphorized and with midrash in mind.  The gospels were never intended to be biographies.  They were written for a particular audience at a particular time and reflect what the church of the day had come to believe about Jesus.

Shalom

Mate

MATE could you please tell me where you get this inflo

WHat Mate describes is a fairly common opinion among mainstream CHristians and scholars.

It is at least equally possible that the PAssion story is a re-telling with details specifically chosen to tie with the old stories and writings as it is tht the Passion story is a "historic" account.  In fact, given that the details vary between the 4 gospels (What DID Jesus say from the cross?) it seems more likely that the writers took what they were told happened thorugh oral history and the writings of the JEwish Scripture and the meanings that were starting to be given to Jesus' life and death and their experience of Easter and wrote what was then passed on in communities of The Way.