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Mendalla

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Persecution of early Christians?

Interesting book review from Salon. Basically an author suggests that the persecution of Christians by the Roman Empire was exaggerated or non-existent save in a few brief periods (eg. Diocletion's persecution). May give it a read. In my reading of Roman history the persecution certainly was no more severe than the persecution of some other traditions and philosophies they didn't lile (eg. The Druids, Domitian's attack on the Stoics).

 

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/24/the_myth_of_persecution_early_christians...

 

Would the idea that early Christians weren't subject to the kind of widespread persecution commonly portrayed change your understanding of the faith or of its history?

 

Mendalla

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waterfall's picture

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And the Edict of Milan was necessary because?????

 

Is she including other sects of Christianity other than Roman Catholic?

 

Hopefully this is based on really good research and  not related to what some have done to WW2 persecution of the Jews.

 

Now I'm going to watch Argo and see how Ken Taylor has been given a bit part dispite the fact he should have been the major player in the movie. (just because Ben Afleck thought it suited Americans better)

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The only sects in those days were not by faith within religion but by location. Persecution was often a result of failure of the false gods the Romans worshipped, to come through with the answers to prayers or offerings. So their failure to perform was blamed on the Christians not worshipping them, thus causing the "gods" to be angry.  it was the Christians fault. Not much different an ideal from today where mankind still loves to blame someone else.

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Alex

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No, I was nevr taught  that Christians faced persecutuion to a larger degree than others. Rome was a brutal empire, and they were not shy about using violence to keep control.

 

.I do believ that because early Christians were made up of various minorty groups, and women, and slaves that they suffered prosecution for those reasons.  They would have suffered some discrimination, because they would not swear alligence to other Gods, but  in fact the various splitiner groups likely faught each other. I believe the Montanists Christians were supposed violent and massacred other Christians in North Africa, even burning down churches while people were trapped.

 

Howevr it has been a few years since I studied eary Christianity, and most of my time, was spent on the time, just before Augustine, so that may or may not be considered early Christianity.

 

 

 

ninjafaery's picture

ninjafaery

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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger_on_Christians

I found this interesting. Pliny the Younger addresses the problem of Christians to Trajan, and seeks advice on how to punish them.

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In answer to your question, Mendalla, my faith has nothing to do with how much or how little persecution early Christians suffered, and everything to do with my belief in a crucified and risen Jesus, so my answer would be no.

 

The question of the extent of Rome's persecution of Christians is an interesting historical issue, but not really a matter of faith. Not for me at east.

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Sounds very interesting. To me though, Jesus' radical message IS the cross, it is the bringer of persecution and suffering to those who follow him. That  message, that cross, is what got the true prophets of old persecuted, it was what got Jesus and the early Christians persecuted, and it still is what gets his true followers persecuted. The persecution is an absolutely integral part of an authentic Christian faith, so when it is part of  your experience, the historical figure/amount of sufferer's at a given time doesn't really have much sway on such faith. I say it is intergral and always will be because I believe in the truth proclaimed by Jesus- "Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way that leads to life, and few are those who find it." This minority faith will always be an outcast from the larger world system. Those who find this life IMHO are of every different creed colour and religion, or non-religion.

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not4prophet

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Kindly further explain onewman how the cross leads to persecution.

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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Tough getting to the other side ... ask any bird ...

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Hi Mendalla,

 

Mendalla wrote:

In my reading of Roman history the persecution certainly was no more severe than the persecution of some other traditions and philosophies they didn't lile (eg. The Druids, Domitian's attack on the Stoics).

 

My reading of history leads to the same conclusion.

 

Mendalla wrote:

Would the idea that early Christians weren't subject to the kind of widespread persecution commonly portrayed change your understanding of the faith or of its history?

 

No.

 

In fact it seems pretty clear that the majority of Christian persecution, through history (particularly European history) shows that the most frequent persecutors of Christians were other Christians.

 

Apart form the obvious interfaith clashes in parts of the world the greatest clash of religious ideals in the Western world is typically in house (again, Christians tearing down other Christians).

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

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Does it change my view of Christians? Not really.

The article puts much into context. I think it's important to have some notion of the literary devices and popular culture of the time. No one cared about veracity in the news, eating up these stories as entertainment. It seems nothing much changes.

As the author pointed out, these gruesome stories were the "horror movies" of the day.  Just like we seem to be entertained by them now. Many of the hagiographies that followed always validated piety by suffering as the hallmark of a true saint. If saints could be given enough provenance, abbeys and the local businesses benefitted by the tourists who came seeking a miracle. Just as tourists go to Lourdes or seek a glance by the pope.

Of course what got disseminated was controlled by the literate class - the rich and powerful (most could not read or write) - who used fear as a means of social engineering, just as the rich and powerful do now. The media was controlled by them (sound familiar?). 

The Romans were certainly prone to horrific punishments. The arena was an entertainment for the masses, but the reasons for these executions were arbitrary. Christians weren't singled out. A public duty was to show alligiance to the emperor by making offerings to the god (actually the emperor). This was of interest to the authorities since it controlled the likelihood of sedition. If one was seen to be loyal, all was well.  Like it is today, persecution was local and sporadic. The article states that imprisonment for minor crimes was expensive, so execution was easier. Just as it is now in some areas of the world???? 

Christians were a pain in the butt to the Romans when they were vocal, but were largely ignored just as minority religions are in other countries.

Anyway, like any other media, one has to be sceptical.

 

 

 

Mendalla's picture

Mendalla

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ninjafaery wrote:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger_on_Christians I found this interesting. Pliny the Younger addresses the problem of Christians to Trajan, and seeks advice on how to punish them.

 

I was actually going to post about that in this thread. I had to translate some of Pliny's letters, including this one, for one of my university Latin classes so I've been aware of it for a long time,

 

The most interesting part is Trajan's response, where he basically says, "Look, Pliny, Christianity is illegal so if there's an accusation, you have to investigate and prosecute it. But there's not need to go overboard. Pardon them if they can show that they are living up to Roman law, don't go on witch-hunts, and don't accept anonymous accusations."

 

Given that this wasn't too long after the more determined persecutions under Domitian (which Pliny had been around for), it's a rather measured, moderate approach. Still religious persecution by modern standards, of course, since it still meant Christians were being prosecuted and punished for being Christian, but on the relative scale of Roman religious policy, quite moderate.

 

I would also point out that similar laws are on the books of some modern states, esp. with regard to atheists and minority religious groups though, mercifully, most Western states have moved away from this kind of legislation. Germany's restrictions on Scientology are the only ones that come immediately to mind though even that still falls short of making it illegal, though they've discussed that possibility. Of course, that depends on whether you think Scientology is even a religion, which I know is a question raised even here in Canada (PS. let's make that debate another thread if we're going to discuss it).

 

Mendalla

 

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Mendalla

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waterfall wrote:

And the Edict of Milan was necessary because?????

 

Is she including other sects of Christianity other than Roman Catholic?

 

 

There were no Roman Catholic or other denominations in that time period, wf. We're basically taking the early church here. She's not suggesting that the was no persecution of Christians, only that the Christian church has overplayed their hand a tad on the persecution front. As John rightly points out, there was Christian on Christian persecution that was at least as bad, if not worse, when they started the process of creating an accepted set of doctrine.

 

The article doesn't mention the Edict of Milan (so you'd have to read the book to see what she says about it) but even if persecution was exaggerated, it was certainly still present and Christians still faced prosecution (see the discussion of Pliny's letter) so an edict ending that would still have been necessary.

 

Mendalla

 

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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{"Look, Pliny, Christianity is illegal}

 

That sort of abolishes light, or Levantine thought processes ... and if you can't prosecute someone for leading you astray; well what now?

 

If you can't beat em join'em! That's the general attitude ... do as the others do ... and everybody is generally messed up ... if you're sane your abnormal in this world. It is more appropriate to be led by pure logic or by pure emotions ... the cold and hot of it. Thermodynamically it drives unknown dimensions ... and satire erupts!

 

Can you ask why no one understands? That is the devoid of th'unque, or otherwise sublime ... below the horizon of norm ...

 

If you can't make light of it few notice what is oppressed ... snot phunny as GUI manna ... how it's bread, requiring an awesome roasting ...

not4prophet's picture

not4prophet

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How much of the idea of persecution in Christianity as a means of glorification and identity was a carry over from the original peoples who followed Jesus, who throughout history have made an art of prospering from tales of persecution.

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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Nothing works as good as a martyr, especially it it is someone else like some old goat that didn't know better but had lots of stupid push and non of the alternate whereupon he could draw something out of never, never land ... the imaginary side?

 

That probably unacceptable to those wishing surety ... firmly rational as compared to the inderterminatly reasonable ... you know they'll change when seeing trouble ... a rare case! But if vision impared and can't see beyond the norm!

 

Is there a new norm today ...? God that's strange ...

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One of the most touching things I have ever done at a Church Event was called a cataclysmic experience, WE were ushered to a small room that had a fire in in and a few folk gathered around ( hiding from the Roman Soldiers outside).

 

As we hid the Roman Soldiers could be heard marching back and forth outside the door.

 

Are you now saying this wasn't true?

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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Things changed in ancient Rome.

 

Around the year 300, you could still be persecuted for being a Christian. A mere 100 years later, you could be persecuted for not being a Christian.

 

not4prophet's picture

not4prophet

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Isn't it amazing how bowing to worldly authourity can relieve the persecution?

ninjafaery's picture

ninjafaery

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Exactly. The birth of the Roman Church?

not4prophet's picture

not4prophet

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The Roman church existed hundreds of years earlier when a power struggle erupted as a result of the roman branch wanting to claim authourity over all the other branches of Christianity including Jerusalem.  The beginning of the remodeling of the Kingdom of God back into yet another worldly institution.

 

Jesus set the example by working from the bottom up. Yet the mankind that created the institution that would eventually become just another seat of authourity, refused to follow His example and instead returned the church back to the traditional ways of mankind.
 

 

 

Mendalla's picture

Mendalla

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crazyheart wrote:

One of the most touching things I have ever done at a Church Event was called a cataclysmic experience, WE were ushered to a small room that had a fire in in and a few folk gathered around ( hiding from the Roman Soldiers outside).

 

As we hid the Roman Soldiers could be heard marching back and forth outside the door.

 

Are you now saying this wasn't true?

 

As I said upthread, I don't she's arguing that it wasn't true, but that it wasn't always true. There were some pretty dire times (e.g. the persecutions under Nero, Domitian,  & Diocletian), but that there were more times when it wasn't so bad.

 

Mendalla

 

Neo's picture

Neo

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Arminius wrote:

Things changed in ancient Rome.

 

Around the year 300, you could still be persecuted for being a Christian. A mere 100 years later, you could be persecuted for not being a Christian.

 


This needed to repeated, it's so true. Tables are turned, opportunities are lost, karmas are paid: history truly does repeat itself when we don't move. It's how we learn as a race, like any child we would raise.


edit to add: I guess I should explain what I meant re the children we raise. I think we should forgive the past just as we forgive our own children when they do wrong. If we accept who we were, the atrocities that we may have been created, even in the name of God, then we can move forward in the helix of evolution, and stop going round and round over the same ground.

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WaterBuoy

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"Things changed in ancient Rome."

 

Tables turn? Isn't this an old idiom worth reading into like Light'sway of getting around the line with some crossing of the flow from time to time to see what's going on within the isolated system. There's a wrinkle in the accepted dimension ... the mortal one?

 

Who'dah conceived of such a thing without moving contemplation? ... and tables in-verse't ... matricees! Mother Waters ... infinite-lye infant Zea ... that could grow into a large myth to confine those that don't like things larger than their portion of the indeterminate self ... sometimes referred to Complex or just irrational when on the other side of the imaginary line without (that's san, or myth thereof; bi Di of a thing as wee mind, damned spot)!

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Neo

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Not sure what you're saying there Waterbuoy, but the karmic wheels do turn in time. It's up us to learn from them. If we do, then the wheel turns into a spiral, a veritable ladder to the stars. If we don't, then we are destined to repeat our mistakes... at least until we do.

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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NEO;

Ever read Stephen Greenblatt's The SWERVE  it can put a bent on any straight line conceptions ... allows us to get out of the BOX ... when contemptlating!

RitaTG's picture

RitaTG

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...here is a good one that I personally heard in a conservative evangelical church just this last Sunday.

I was there supporting my dear wife.......

The message was on persecution....

The pastor said..... speaking to the "believers".... that anytime someone doesn't want to listen to what you have to say about God that that was a bit of persecution.

Imagine that ..... if we on the receiving end of such "annointed" words don't want to listen ..... we are persecuting them......

I guess I had rather a limitied view of persecution......

By the way ..... this affects my family and me......

Rita

not4prophet's picture

not4prophet

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 Losing privilege is not persecution.

 

 

 

Jim Kenney's picture

Jim Kenney

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Rita, you have my supportive thoughts -- our mix of relationships can put us in complex conflicts.

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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Does that persecution work in reverse or in-verse proportion? Coming back at yah like Ego/Echo ...

 

Can the significant other be persecuted by Christians that don't understand the word soma? This root does lead to somnolant ... an allusion to those out of it! Look down from the choir loft and you see some of it ... sometimes when you look up form the conggregants ... if you're sharp ... there's an edge! Like irony on the tip of Eros ... they'll eventually learn that going there is to bedone with carus (caution, or great care but as a medium not like Icarus who went to far.

 

Did I say that Lucrece had end names like Titus and Carus ... the middle'n end was blown by satyr ... originating from Lucrece ... a fold in indeterminate functions ... things we don't know becauseof emotional status ... a separate dimensin in the integral sol' (meaning singularity). Singularieties come in two forms infinite and nothing ... intimately connected by titus't words ... a dark area in existence ... variable (spectre'a) meanings are often shunned!

 

One needs to gather a lot of damned thoughts to get there ... and who in church likes a pile a words? Perhaps explaining why many Christians do not dig into what they worship ... biblical truth that is all inclusive and gathering like an internalized storm. Thoughts must be put to story, myth, satyr to get into the stone we call the isolated mind ... something beyond us like intellect according to Webster! Real people seldom goth'eire ... appears thin like the darkness running from the point ... ofPenne ... extension of de noodle? Ever see a brain laid out ... on a fabric, shroud or finely woven entity? If really in fin-ite form it is unsee able ... hunc'able ... until that incident ... when two alien powers cross ... leading to Hebrew pas'ova ... a semite/samite experience? Soul flattening, and God rested ... with the other penetrating medium ... while alien fires burned out of sight as convoluted rite ...

 

Freud or Jung would have called this oppressive compulsive states ... and you know what mortals think about soul, psyche and psychology .. or even psychiatrists ... those testing the internalized fires of inner space ... mostly voided it seems or raptured in the presenc'tate ... a phonetic jumble or just alien chaos?

 

Go fig Ur ... will stangle a tree without thoughts and squeeze out the intelligence for a new sol'! There are parallels or hyperboles that diverge from the point ... outside viewers appear to find this ironic ... with gold at the middle ... like earth or Mir'th ... spaced words? Placed so mortals won't know ... it's a gift  for those who find joey in weird situations. Consider our state ...

 

Heiseinberg or Pauling Prin. outside perspective (OBI) or just very uncertain ...

 

There are those that would say "no" or "nun" to this providing us with n'OBI or the bump on the log we call story, or ruagh myth ... as we pass thro' ...

 

Lifeis like that for many except the chosen few that know little ... called oligarchs ... with an "i" this leads to oli-gar-chi ... or a fish with fiery teeth ... Mac The Knife for when the loan shark returns to see that we've absorbed? Love does appear to be painful ... when you don't know ...

 

Why does the bible say teach my children and we don't teach eme much? No wonder the things dissonant and dissapated ... scattered thoughts! What causes gathering? Sphincters ... ESS phin'-X? A fine spot to be in ... hyper Ba'aL-ich functions that are not far from hypo knot ich? Causesmob hysteria if viewed ... God that is ... they all want some but all need a break or they become contemptable about connections that are familiar ... this could continue but you can probe the abstract for interaction!

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JRT

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Arminius wrote:

Things changed in ancient Rome.

 

Around the year 300, you could still be persecuted for being a Christian. A mere 100 years later, you could be persecuted for not being a Christian.

 

All too true. For example:

 

314 ---Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of the Goddess Artemis.

324 ---At Dydima, Asia Minor, Constantine sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.

 

326 ---Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of the God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of the Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc..

 

330 ---Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

 

335 ---Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.

 

341 ---Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

 

346 ---New large-scale persecutions of the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius, who is accused of being a "magician".

 

353 ---An edict of Constantius decrees the death penalty for all forms of worship involving sacrifice and "idols".

 

354 ---A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. The first burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.

 

356 ---A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters".

 

357 ---Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

 

359 ---In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

 

361 to 363 ---Religious tolerance and restoration of Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

 

363 ---Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

 

364 ---Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination. Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, including private ones.

 

365 ---An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids Gentile officers of the army to command christian soldiers.

 

370 ---Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of Gentiles throughout the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Pagans, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the city-squares of the Eastern Empire. All friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.

 

372 ---Emperor Valens orders the governor of Asia Minor to exterminate the Hellenes and destroy all writings of their wisdom.

 

373 ---New prohibition of all methods of Divination. The term "Pagan" (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the christians to lessen the Gentiles.

 

375 ---The Temple of the God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down.

 

380 ---On the 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that "all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter". Non-christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe in the Christian god and outlaws all disagreements with Church dogma. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of the Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.

 

381 ---On May the 2nd, Theodosius deprives Christians that return to the Pagan Religion of all their rights. Throughout the Eastern Empire, Pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of the Goddess Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis into stables.

 

382 ---"Hellelu-jah" (Glory to Yah) is imposed in the christian mass.

 

384 ---Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect, Maternus Cynegius (a dedicated christian), to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Asia Minor.

 

385 to 388 ---Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and his bishop "Saint" Marcellus, scour the countryside with their gangs, sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Amongst others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Pagans from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

 

386 ---Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of sacked Pagan Temples.

 

388 ---Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius, with a hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.

 

389 to 390 ---All non-christian calenders are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood into Middle Eastern and Egyptian cities, destroying statues, altars, Libraries and Pagan Temples, whilst Gentiles are lynched. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesques the Pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The christian mob profanes the cult images.

 

391 ---On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to Pagan Temples but also looking at vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights, finally lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of the God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the christians occupy the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.

 

392 ---On 8th November, the Emperor Theodosius outlaws all non-christian rituals and names them "superstitions of the Gentiles" (“gentilicia superstitio”). New full scale persecutions against the Gentiles. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop, "Saints" Epiphanius and Tychon destroy almost all the Temples of the island and exterminate thousands of Gentiles. The local Mysteries of Goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius' edict declares: "the ones that won't obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living on the island". The Gentiles revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

 

393 ---The Pythian, Aktia and Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic "idolatry". Christians sack the Temples of Olympia.

 

395 ---Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) lead to new persecutions against the Gentiles. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of the baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by christian monks, the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable Hellenes and burn the Temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all of its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396 ---On 7th December, a new edict by Emperor Arcadius orders that Paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining Pagan priests and hierophants.

 

397 ---"Demolish them!" Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still erect Pagan Temples demolished.

 

398 ---The Fourth Church Council of Carthage prohibits to all, including its bishops, the study of Gentile books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the Pagan Temples of his city (except nine of them that remain active).

 

399 ---With a new edict (13th July) Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining Temples, mainly in the countryside, to be immediately demolished.

And that was just the fourth century. It went one for many more centuries.

 

 

Mendalla's picture

Mendalla

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RitaTG wrote:

The pastor said..... speaking to the "believers".... that anytime someone doesn't want to listen to what you have to say about God that that was a bit of persecution.

 

This is a preacher who clearly has no idea of what persecution means. Persecution is having to practice your faith in secret because you'll be officially or unofficially sanctioned if you do it openly (as many faiths, not just Christianity, do in China or as pagan practitioners faced, and still face, in some Christian and Muslim countries). Persecution is being told your faith is worthless and evil because it is wrong (see mention of pagans in previous parentheses). Persecution is not having the right to speak about your faith openly, let alone worrying about people listening.

 

It is not persecution if I as an individual choose not to listen to someone's witness (but could be if I then try to use some form of sanction to stop them from witnessing). In a society where freedom of thought and expression is the norm, I have as much right to ignore someone's preaching as that person has to preach.

 

Mendalla

 

RitaTG's picture

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...agreed Mendella ..... agreed....

And this pastor was a professor at at bible college.......

I was stunned ......

Regards

Rita

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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Listen to all lessons tendered to you ... for they may actually tell you how not to do things so as to abide with the Golden Rule .. that's chimerii Eros in Classic myth with a lot of stories built around it like Robin Hood and Ivan Hoe ...

 

Althought to many of fixed thinking I am processing negatively ... isn't that awesome prodigiation (working with the forefinger instead of thumb)!   yes

 

? ... always a curiosity of what's next ... the celebration of more to learn once you get over the bump! Like Abraham and Lot comeing from Ur ... its a dark story that people like to incarnate as physical and it is pure mental exercise ... a poor soul out for a stretch as they are confined in our present climate of hating processed intellect ... a type of contemplation, or mediating what's old hack!

 

Remember the axiom; never never confine a power ... so Joules was set loose here and energy as a gemstone that is poorly undertood on the face of it or end on ! Emotions exposed are prone to thought ... what a sin!

Rev. Steven Davis's picture

Rev. Steven Davis

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Mendalla wrote:

RitaTG wrote:

The pastor said..... speaking to the "believers".... that anytime someone doesn't want to listen to what you have to say about God that that was a bit of persecution.

 

This is a preacher who clearly has no idea of what persecution means. Persecution is having to practice your faith in secret because you'll be officially or unofficially sanctioned if you do it openly (as many faiths, not just Christianity, do in China or as pagan practitioners faced, and still face, in some Christian and Muslim countries).

 

 

Or practicing your faith openly even though you know these things will happen to you.

 

Mendalla wrote:

Persecution is being told your faith is worthless and evil because it is wrong (see mention of pagans in previous parentheses).

 

That's not persecution, although persecution could result from that. But if that's persecution, then we have a couple of folks right here on WC who "persecute" us all the time!

 

Generally speaking, I fully agree, though, that the word "persecution" is terribly overused in our society, and generally refers not to persecution but to loss of privilege.

 

There is real religious persecution in the world today (against Christians and those of other faiths) that gets cheapened by some of the examples of "persecution" I hear some Christians in our society make today.

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WaterBuoy

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How does persecultion compare to locution, where "per" in some old tongue related to Farse was considered pure ... original?

 

In the double ended infinite sense of ongoing change is this original humour for those observing from outside the system   Heiseinberb Prin? Bloody awful as the Red Lady Accusation and the war really was about fecundity ... an ephemeral dispute of patriarch over daughter over who had the right to sell what ...

 

What becomes important over something that wasn't there ... the focus of many myths that bring men to their knees ... infinite humour over the misinterpretation of the ribbing? Closer to a Reuben, a sandwich'n of two young things without clues of what theywere getting into for the patriarch said that these things shouldnt be known? For the sense of clearing the Eire ... pedre was expelled from Ireland with his viper something that has to be read into in regards to Caduces ... holy humours sometimes known a satyr ... samite alloying will provide new grey matter in time ... no time at all or nein months ... funny how fast trouble grows a a refreshed soul ...

 

That's reincarnation in some traditions ... where young people put their thoughts ... elders sometime s put them under recall order ... and just remember the good old days and wished they knew better of how to work it!

 

Some old peole never even grasp this as a timeless gift ... so they redirect to screwing everything physically, mentally, and spiritually as a curse ... and some of us use it as a sacred blessing to write myths about ... for ho'dah thought it was real?

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WaterBuoy

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Come to think of it the situation is almost like conspiratorial ignorance ... how people so gladly get into wars if they can control them from the rear lines ... bo'chi theology?

 

It is a woodland mysterious fire that burns in the Shadows ... hammadryad incarnation ... an other abstract ... of course the old rule presides ... what absorbs light beta ... thus the dark lady syndrome ... don't take anything literal ... all things are illusions due to unbelievable myths on the nature of the physical soul ... gone missing ... perhaps fishing for some grumpy old men lost in a bote ... thats wormy!

 

The clay Jared thing stands as an icon to olla technology for where to hide a good myth in a deep chasm ... metaphorically the Dead Sea conglomeration! How can this go on and on misunderstood without the input of mangods that didn't wish to knew where they pude it ... the surrounding evidence ... a holy woman? That's almost psychic ... close to thought in a dimension where it is disallowed?

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WaterBuoy

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Ever wonder about the expression di-semminal thoughts ... originated from something like semite ... that has a seedy air about it ... or perhaps the Ephraim of Eire or displaced soul ...

 

If one explores word inhuge perspective of de Lexis ... odd what you learn about what's abstract ... just not here as forgotten wisdom ... almost Classic in origins ... pas ... or Piscine away! Trying to find the old self?

 

But a Lass ... we are forbidden to know the meaning of the story by some strange power imposed of the creation of a new scripture some 400 years ago ... a mind corrupted by too much sects and the effect of sect you'allah transmitted dis ease?

 

The other GUI aways likes us to fear his father ... even if he is dressed in a weasel skin and makes believe hehs Ermine bound ... the white hairy old weasel ... what the Chi-knees called dhow agers ... old biddies mad at what they missed ... elle bent oliaD's ... scant old impression of Gabriel? jacob presentes her as incubus or succubus ... be couldn't tell in the strugle o the other side ... it was dark ... but Jack ended up being screwed by the mistruth!

 

Time to grow up into thought folks from the sublime unknown of passions .. then we could solve the enigmas of the realm! people count in a meaningful social order created out of balanced chaos theory ... presently a alien monotheistic concept of everything should go one way ... absolutely in conflict with the Golden Rule ... but Ho'dah thought considering no one questionned stupid laws ... or is that lawsof ignorance that were to be heavily imposed ... like confining a portion of the spirit ... plainly black and white if you read into it!

 

Then who really cares ...

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Jim Kenney

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Thank you JRT for the history information.  And some Christians wonder why the world seems to hate us.

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Neo

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Jim Kenney wrote:

Thank you JRT for the history information.  And some Christians wonder why the world seems to hate us.


Today the world is shocked when Al Qaeda destroys centuries old temples and shrines... looks like the practice has been going on for a long time.

ninjafaery's picture

ninjafaery

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The best truths used for the worst ends...

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Arminius

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JRT wrote:

Arminius wrote:

Things changed in ancient Rome.

 

Around the year 300, you could still be persecuted for being a Christian. A mere 100 years later, you could be persecuted for not being a Christian.

 

All too true. For example:

 

314 ---Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of the Goddess Artemis.

324 ---At Dydima, Asia Minor, Constantine sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.

 

326 ---Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of the God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of the Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc..

 

330 ---Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

 

335 ---Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.

 

341 ---Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

 

346 ---New large-scale persecutions of the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius, who is accused of being a "magician".

 

353 ---An edict of Constantius decrees the death penalty for all forms of worship involving sacrifice and "idols".

 

354 ---A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. The first burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.

 

356 ---A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters".

 

357 ---Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

 

359 ---In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

 

361 to 363 ---Religious tolerance and restoration of Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

 

363 ---Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

 

364 ---Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination. Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, including private ones.

 

365 ---An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids Gentile officers of the army to command christian soldiers.

 

370 ---Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of Gentiles throughout the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Pagans, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the city-squares of the Eastern Empire. All friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.

 

372 ---Emperor Valens orders the governor of Asia Minor to exterminate the Hellenes and destroy all writings of their wisdom.

 

373 ---New prohibition of all methods of Divination. The term "Pagan" (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the christians to lessen the Gentiles.

 

375 ---The Temple of the God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down.

 

380 ---On the 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that "all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter". Non-christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe in the Christian god and outlaws all disagreements with Church dogma. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of the Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.

 

381 ---On May the 2nd, Theodosius deprives Christians that return to the Pagan Religion of all their rights. Throughout the Eastern Empire, Pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of the Goddess Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis into stables.

 

382 ---"Hellelu-jah" (Glory to Yah) is imposed in the christian mass.

 

384 ---Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect, Maternus Cynegius (a dedicated christian), to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Asia Minor.

 

385 to 388 ---Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and his bishop "Saint" Marcellus, scour the countryside with their gangs, sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Amongst others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Pagans from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

 

386 ---Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of sacked Pagan Temples.

 

388 ---Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius, with a hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.

 

389 to 390 ---All non-christian calenders are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood into Middle Eastern and Egyptian cities, destroying statues, altars, Libraries and Pagan Temples, whilst Gentiles are lynched. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesques the Pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The christian mob profanes the cult images.

 

391 ---On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to Pagan Temples but also looking at vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights, finally lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of the God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the christians occupy the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.

 

392 ---On 8th November, the Emperor Theodosius outlaws all non-christian rituals and names them "superstitions of the Gentiles" (“gentilicia superstitio”). New full scale persecutions against the Gentiles. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop, "Saints" Epiphanius and Tychon destroy almost all the Temples of the island and exterminate thousands of Gentiles. The local Mysteries of Goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius' edict declares: "the ones that won't obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living on the island". The Gentiles revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

 

393 ---The Pythian, Aktia and Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic "idolatry". Christians sack the Temples of Olympia.

 

395 ---Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) lead to new persecutions against the Gentiles. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of the baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by christian monks, the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable Hellenes and burn the Temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all of its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396 ---On 7th December, a new edict by Emperor Arcadius orders that Paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining Pagan priests and hierophants.

 

397 ---"Demolish them!" Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still erect Pagan Temples demolished.

 

398 ---The Fourth Church Council of Carthage prohibits to all, including its bishops, the study of Gentile books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the Pagan Temples of his city (except nine of them that remain active).

 

399 ---With a new edict (13th July) Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining Temples, mainly in the countryside, to be immediately demolished.

And that was just the fourth century. It went one for many more centuries.

 

 

 

Hi JRT:

 

Thank you for this impressive list! I'll print it out and memorize the high points, because I'm presently studying up on the history of ancient Rome. My granddaughter will come home in late April with a Master's degree in ancient Roman and Greek history, and I'm looking forward to some informed discussions with her.

 

Her Master Thesis is about St. Paul, from a secular, historic, and scholarly perspective, of course. I've read the draft. Fascinating stuff! I suggested to her to entitle it "Who's Paul?", after the famous joke: Jesus finally comes for his long-awaited Second Coming, and somebody asks him whether he agrees with what Paul wrote about him. "Who's Paul?", replies Jesus.

 

 

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ninjafaery

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Lol - good one :)

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WaterBuoy

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Isn't the pall of Rome what Jesus was wrapped up in?

 

A subliminal light in Roman theology as deep satyr!

 

The one has too do some research in various fabrics ... like samite that could be related to a construct of psyche ... and the emotional types would take this as satan, or the devil wrestling with the human issue from across the river ... what Jack called a terrible tumble with a dark angel sent from God ... Gabriel; a love to die for? Then there is this foggy shroud hanging about adequate church history

 

There's a myth that would put life on the other side in jeopardy;  a game of risk in getting out of the responsibilites given with life? Some survivors of suicide attempts say they would never try that again after what was encountered in that near affair with outlandish Hebrew wisdom! They appeared to be severely embarassed by their actions through something encountered out there ... an alternate CIA as induced by Three Days of the Condor ... a shadowy bird like the raven in more northerly myths!

 

And thus we could end up in high places not craping on the wee people but being the object of the high crapper ...  HG should like that one! I know hei supt here!

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Is it cosmological humour that may Christians fear reading the word ... even those associated tomes that tell of the history of religious systems like JRT reiterated? The story goes on ...

 

There are so many good books describing the corruptions present ... like The Swerve that won the pultizer and is probably on a banned list due to the history of burnings of people who pondered nature when directed not to by Holy Tome. How about Constantines Sword and The History of Christianity ... books that would turn your stomach over the romantic version of God. Love and War ... an infinite battle for the rare few Eire oligarchs of a different shade?

 

They are profound reads ... oh .. sounds pit-like we won't enter that well of information! We could get trapped into thinking ... Trappists? Get on with yah ... itinerants who wonder ... about in books!

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chansen

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ninjafaery wrote:
The best truths used for the worst ends...

 

The best truths? Take a look at the less-pretty bits of the bible again. It's a how-to manual for killing, raping and pillaging in the name of God.

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JRT

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Arminius's picture

Arminius

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Thanks, JRT, I'll print them out and read them with interest!

 

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Arminius

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Hi JRT:

I just printed oud the two pdfs by Barrie Wilson. Will read them tonight in my lazyboy chair.  Looks like fascinating reading.

 

The timeline by Rassias looks interesting too, but I'll read in on-line. I see it also has a German version, I'll read that as well. When reading different translations of the same document, one sometimes gets things in one translation that one didn't get in the other. Thanks again!

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Arminius

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Hi JRT:

 

Barrie Wilson certainly puts forth very persuasive arguments for his theory that Pauline Christianity was, at the time of Paul, a religious movement that was almost totally separate from the Jesus movement. In his zeal to distance himself from the Judaic origins of Christianity, Paul founded a new Christian religion that was based on Paul's version of the mythical Christ, while the original Jesus movement remained a Judaic sect centred in Jerusalem around Jesus' brother, James. Paul had never met Jesus, had minimal contact with the relatives of Jesus or other people close to Jesus, and did not write about the historical Jesus in his writings, only about the risen Christ whom he was supposed to have encountered in his vision.

 

Decades after Paul, attempts were made to synthesise the Jesus movement with Pauline Christianity, with varying success, but the Christianity that eventually emerged as the state religion of ancient Rome, and became modern Christianity, was not so much the original Jesus movement but Paul's Christianity.

 

A sobering conclusion, eh? And all is based on Paul's interpretation of his mystical experience, of which we don't know any details?

 

   

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not4prophet

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They were good articles and moved in agreement that perhaps Paul, not having success as Saul, reverted to being Paul to draw Jews who followed Jesus... out of the temple and into a gentile religion  thus fulfilling his original purpose as Saul.

 

However, despite his attempts to distance Paul from Jesus, he does not address the fact that on two occassions scripture says that Paul spent a large amount of time teaching the original Gospel of the Kingdom, which was Jesus'.. and not the same as the gospel of salvation attributed to Paul. Is this a weak spot in Mr Wilson's theory which shows Paul taught what jesus did, or are the two scriptures in Acts differing from his seeming attitude in his epistles due to a change of heart or manipulation of the scriptures?

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