We use the phrase 'doubting Thomas' like it's a bad thing. But is doubting always bad? Put yourself in Thomas's shoes for a moment, when the rest of the disciples report they had seen the one he knew had been crucified. How would you have reacted?
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unsafe
Posted on: 04/25/2014 08:07
Hi redbaron338 your quote We use the phrase 'doubting Thomas' like it's a bad thing. But is doubting always bad?
Very good question -----according to scripture it is ---according to the world it isn't ----it is a personal choice in my opinion -----on which side of the road you want to be on -----
Answer this ----when you Hope for a thing ----do you doubt you will get it or do you feel you might get what you hope for -----what you hope for is unseen you haven't got it yet ---until your hope comes to the seen realm you don't have a physical thing to rely on ---you are in fact relying on the unseen ------ so doubt is a negative word in my books ----when we doubt we will get what we hope for to me it says --I won't get it ----so your unseen hope needs positive feedback in my opinion ------I will get what I am hoping for -----then Faith kicks in and Faith requires action on our part to do what we can here in this physical world to make sure our hope comes to pass ----
Thomas only relied on his physical seen realm ---was Thomas wrong ---not in his way of thinking ----to him it made perfect sense to see before he believed --Thomas was still living and believing the 5 senses --- which needs no Faith to or action to believe --all that is needed is sight that says it is true ----I see the marks --now I believe ----then you could still have those who would still not believe even though they see ---they could say it was some kind of trick --- and refuse to believe even the physical evidence -----there are many people like that today as well -----it is all a personal choice as to whether to doubt or not ----- It is a personal choice to choose to believe the unseen or not to ---God is unseen ---yet many believe in God --it is their choice --they don't doubt in a non seen God's existence -----
This is just my view on this ---Peace
Mendalla
Posted on: 04/25/2014 08:31
Thomas' doubt is important. He is, in fact, the more realistic of the apostles in that regard. He did not want to "take it on faith" but probe deeper, seeking a different kind of certainty. He's rather scientific in that regard.
One of the problems with Christianity (and it is not just evangelicals in my experience) is that they brush off or ignore Thomas' example in favour of a faith that is fixed and not open to further refinement. They think that Christ proving it to Thomas was good enough for them rather than seeing him as an example/parable for how to question and refine their own understanding of Christ.
Even if you are not going to doubt or question your own faith in God, Christ, or the revelation of them in scripture, you should be doubting and questioning what others are teaching and telling you. Sermons, creeds, and so on are not scriptural but interpretations of scripture and to truly understand faith, you need to question those interpretations and move to developing your own understanding, even if you aren't going question scripture itself (though, honestly, I think even scripture and the revelation in it should be fair game, but that's my UU'ism talking).
If I was going to take an apostle as a personal role model, I'd be inclined towards Thomas. Then again, my personal faith is largely built on the foundation of refining my understanding of the world through questioning and exploration.
http://www.wondercafe.ca/blogs/mendalla/doubt-and-faith
Mendalla
Neo
Posted on: 04/25/2014 09:30
Blind faith lends one to stumble. Open your eyes, said Jesus, be ye wise as serpents. Believing something because others, including the clerics of religions, say to do so is not the way to waking up.
Christians today seem to think that doubting, questioning and researching other approaches (especially other religions) to truth is somehow antithetical to the "one and only way". They are, in my humble opinion, simply wrong. The one and only way has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with being honest in your thoughts, sincere in your words, and detached in your actions.
waterfall
Posted on: 04/25/2014 09:38
What about the Holy Spirit? Should we look there for guidance? I'm not sure I always associate asking questions with doubting. Sometimes it's just to hopefully lead me to a deeper understanding of what I already know. Possibly that was what Thomas was doing also.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 04/25/2014 08:59
How does this all relate to one of the fun scripts 1 Thessaloneons 5:21 on questioning everything!
How else would a person even begin the eternal pilgrimage ... a' sum ... or just integral idealism when you get yourself collected ... ecclesia included?
Was Thomas outstanding, ET hick, or just an outlander to the Roman tradition of heavy handness in carving Roué's that can often turn up as dilemma ... to be countered with uncommon sense? Wisdom that's right out of here ...
Perhaps why Jesus best friend was juda's way out ... and the lights went out in GEO Gaia for the judai 'n carried great punch ... fa route thought?
Wiles ... you get outa here ... time for conceptive thought! You're not supposed to talk of the death of light in the realm of undyiing passion for heavy handedness ... amaryth/amaranth ... a mythical blossoming? Abstract flowering of Eros among the thorn is ... Icon-IHC! Real people don't like Icons ... they're anti-polysemeous that leads to extraction of the emeous way, sometimes spelt amaeus ... an amazing conception?
revjohn
Posted on: 04/25/2014 09:40
Hi Redbaron338,
How would you have reacted?
I most likely would have had pretty much the same reaction. I doubt I would have gone to the hyperbolic lengths that Thomas did with the unless I put my finger in the nail marks or into his side where the spear pierced him.
And yet,
How did Jesus respond to that hyperbole?
In Luke 24 there is no mention of a special dispensation to Thomas all of the Apostle's doubt and Jesus invites all who were gathered in the upper room to touch him. I suspect most Christians have forgotten Luke 24:37-39
Which very clearly shows that Thomas was not alone in his doubt.
John's Gospel alone records the story of Thomas' doubt. The question is why.
Is it to humiliate Thomas or to shame those who doubt? By no means. It is a display of God being gracious to those who struggle. Jesus accommodates Thomas and gives him what he needs to overcome his doubt.
Why folk have chosen to make it a warning tale about doubt rather than a gift of grace is beyond my capacity to fathom.
Some folk read John 20: 29 and imagine Jesus must have said it with a stern voice and a look of disgust on his face. As if Thomas is contemptible and represents a mistake that Chrst wished he never made. I don't get that either.
Thomas doubted.
As if we never have.
Thomas doubted and Jesus still accepted him.
Why then should any of us fear to express our doubts?
Sadly many of the Christians we surround ourselves with are nowhere near as wise or compassionate as Christ was himself. The heresis of Novatism and Donatism require some modern day zealous rigorism I guess.
Grace and peace to you.
John
Mendalla
Posted on: 04/25/2014 10:13
What about the Holy Spirit? Should we look there for guidance? I'm not sure I always associate asking questions with doubting. Sometimes it's just to hopefully lead me to a deeper understanding of what I already know. Possibly that was what Thomas was doing also.
Of course. In the Christian tradition, the Holy Spirit is a source of answers. There are corresponding notions in othe tradtions, too, such a seeking truth within through meditation. Psychologically, it's much the same thing. It does not remove questioning or doubting, merely provides a path for guiding your search for answers.
See also John's message. His take on the question is, as usual with him, worth contemplating.
Mendalla
RitaTG
Posted on: 04/25/2014 10:23
Jesus chose Thomas as a disciple ... and I would suppose that Jesus knew his character just as he knew Peter's and Judas's...
Jesus must have chosen him for a reason and perhaps this is the moment he was chosen for......
I like Thomas .... I can relate to him ...... maybe a bit more of that in our character would be a good thing.
There is too much believing something just because someone else said so...
Regards
Rita
chansen
Posted on: 04/25/2014 10:41
There is too much believing something just because someone else said so...
*blinks*
Arminius
Posted on: 04/25/2014 11:55
No, Thomas should not have believed just because others said he should.
Doubt is an important part of any belief system. Without doubt there is just blind belief. And blind belief is just that: blind!
unsafe
Posted on: 04/25/2014 11:31
When you doubt and then don't doubt is that not going from belief to unbelief ---can you be stable going from belief to unbelief ----you believe that there is a God but you don't believe that God is able to help you in your situation ----so How stable is your belief ---you go like the waves on the sea you're tossed from belief to unbelief ----what purpose will that serve you -----to me it says I am confused ---unsettled ---unquiet ---fickle ---unstable and restless ----You believe in God but Not His Power to help -----what good is just believing in God if there is no help given -----what can God do for you if you doubt He can help in time of need ----What good is anything if you believe one part of it but doubt the other part --
Peace
redbaron338
Posted on: 04/25/2014 11:57
If I had the choice to make, I would choose Thomas as my patron saint, one who is unafraid to express doubts and raise questions. I appreciate the comments about blind faith being blinding. I believe it is possible to be faithful even in the midst of questions. Reactions?
blackbelt1961
Posted on: 04/25/2014 11:58
Tomas shows his very human nature, how can a man be raised from the dead, physically. I would probably doubt aswell. Tomas’s testimony reflects that of Peter walking on water, “oh you little of faith, why did you dough “, this shows the power that the natural world has on the human race, we doubt supernaturalism, yet to Jesus it was natural. It also shows the compassion Jesus has on us, knowing that we live and are confined in a naturalistic reality.
chansen
Posted on: 04/25/2014 12:01
I'll take uncertainty over a bad explanation, any day.
In a nutshell, that's why I'm an atheist.
Arminius
Posted on: 04/25/2014 12:02
I am faithful and doubtful.
To me, faith is not an unquestioning belief but a feeling: a trust in a spiritual dimension.
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 04/25/2014 12:05
I love Rev John's and Rita's answers on this one.
dreamerman
Posted on: 04/25/2014 12:20
When you doubt and then don't doubt is that not going from belief to unbelief ---can you be stable going from belief to unbelief ----you believe that there is a God but you don't believe that God is able to help you in your situation ----so How stable is your belief ---you go like the waves on the sea you're tossed from belief to unbelief ----what purpose will that serve you -----to me it says I am confused ---unsettled ---unquiet ---fickle ---unstable and restless ----You believe in God but Not His Power to help -----what good is just believing in God if there is no help given -----what can God do for you if you doubt He can help in time of need ----What good is anything if you believe one part of it but doubt the other part --
Peace
revjohn
Posted on: 04/25/2014 12:59
Hi unsafe,
When you doubt and then don't doubt is that not going from belief to unbelief
No.
Doubt is measured along a line which moves from doubtfull (full of doubt) to doubtless (no doubt).
Belief is opposed by unbelief.
Anyone who propses that doubt is the opposite of unbelief is illiterate.
Belief/unbelief are definite statements. I believe or I don't believe sum up these positions adequately.
Doubt is a measure of uncertainty. In essence one can believe in something and have that belief tested (doubts arise) without having that belief falter or fail.
you believe that there is a God but you don't believe that God is able to help you in your situation
Just like that unsatble threesome of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. They believed in God and God's ability to save them from the firey furnace yet their instability shows by their insistence that even if God would not save them from the firey furnace God would still be God.
They believed in God.
They just didn't believe that God must save them to be God. And their willingness to entertain the notion that God might not save them didn't render them unbelievers in God. It made them doubtful about God's next step.
And lets be clear. They believed God perfectly capable of saving them. They simply didn't know if that was God's plan nor did they think that their knowledge of God's plan proved their belief in God.
And yet we don't consider them to be fickle. They are heroes of our faith.
Why would somebody who wondered whether or not God was going to directly intervene in their lives be considered an unbeliever? It has nothing to do with doubt, faith or belief. It has everything to do with fear and triumphalism. And both are just as dangerous in the hands of believers as they are in non-believers.
Grace and peace to you.
John
----so How stable is your belief ---you go like the waves on the sea you're tossed from belief to unbelief ----what purpose will that serve you -----to me it says I am confused ---unsettled ---unquiet ---fickle ---unstable and restless ----You believe in God but Not His Power to help -----what good is just believing in God if there is no help given -----what can God do for you if you doubt He can help in time of need ----What good is anything if you believe one part of it but doubt the other part --
Peace
[/quote]
blackbelt1961
Posted on: 04/25/2014 13:13
Just like that unsatble threesome of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego.
Peace
They had a threesome
unsafe
Posted on: 04/25/2014 16:22
Hi revjohn your quote Why would somebody who wondered whether or not God was going to directly intervene in their lives be considered an unbeliever? It has nothing to do with doubt, faith or belief. It has everything to do with fear and triumphalism. And both are just as dangerous in the hands of believers as they are in non-believers.
revjohn ---an unbeliever is someone to me that just doesn't believe ----my question is if you BELIEVE in God and yet doubt that He will help you in your time of need when God says Rely on me and I will help you but you doubt the help will come ----then what use is even believing in God -----If you believe in God yet doubt God will save you from Hell then what is the point of your believing in God ---God is there for us --to help us ---save us ---to deliver us ---to heal us ----that is God's Promise to His Children ---Doubt Hinders God and doubt is a curse according to scripture ----
KJV Dictionary Definition: doubt
DOUBT, v.t. dout.
1. To question, or hold questionable; to withhold assent from; to hesitate to believe; as, I have heard the story, but I doubt the truth of it.
Deuteronomy 28:66
Curses from the Lord
King James Version (KJV)
66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:
James 1:6
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
6 When you ask for something, don’t have any doubts. A person who has doubts is like a wave that is blown by the wind and tossed by the sea.
Romans 14:23
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
23 But if a person has doubts and still eats, he is condemned because he didn’t act in faith. Anything that is not done in faith is sin.
Grace and Peace to you -----
revjohn
Posted on: 04/25/2014 17:03
Hi unsafe,
revjohn ---an unbeliever is someone to me that just doesn't believe
Hard to argue with that definition it is a textbook definition of an unbeliever. One who doesn't believe.
A doubter, on the other hand is not one who doesn't believe. A doubter is one who has trouble believing.
my question is if you BELIEVE in God and yet doubt that He will help you in your time of need when God says Rely on me and I will help you but you doubt the help will come ----then what use is even believing in God
That doesn't read as a question. It reads as an accusation. In that you sound like chansen because the only question you manage to ask is "what use is even believing in God"
If you believe in God yet doubt God will save you from Hell then what is the point of your believing in God
Well, the point would be a belief that God is real and that God isn't a vending machine who is obligated to serve me because I say some magic words.
Doubt Hinders God
No. Doubt hinders belief. It doesn't make belief impossible it makes it difficult. Doubt is like a crucible and hopefully it burns away all the dross and leaves only pure faith behind.
and doubt is a curse according to scripture
And God's response to that curse is what? How does Jesus deal with Thomas and his unbelief? How does Jesus deal with the other apostle's and their belief?
Does he abandon them?
to hesitate to believe
Which anyone with a grasp of the English language reads as to hesitate to believe not to refuse to believe or to unbelieve.
I wish I had a lot of time to deal with your proof-texting.
Oddly none of the texts you quote equate doubt with unbelief. So I'm really not certain what you had hoped to prove with your proof texting.
Grace and peace to you.
John
unsafe
Posted on: 04/25/2014 17:57
Hi revjohn
We think different is all -----you call it proof text ---I call it God's word which is alive and active today as it was in the beginning so when God say He will help you and you have no doubt about that God WILL HELP YOU as He states in His word ------there is protocol to get the Help and not doubting is part of the protocol -----
That is from Strong's
Unbelief
Apistea.
Strong’s definition:
1. Lacking confidence in the performer, unfaithfulness, faithless
2. Want of faith, unbelief
3. Weakness of faith
Description: Doubting God’s willingness or ability to alter the circumstances one is in.
Distazo.
Strong’s definition:
1. Doubt/waver
Description: Intellectually reconsidering whether or not something one is believing for can or will occur. Skepticism.
This for me says it best in this what you call proof text ---I call God's word and find it to be very clear ---plain and concise in what it says verse 7 is very plain
James 1:5-8
When You Are Tested, Turn to God
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
5 If any of you needs wisdom to know what you should do, you should ask God, and he will give it to you. God is generous to everyone and doesn’t find fault with them.6 When you ask for something, don’t have any doubts. A person who has doubts is like a wave that is blown by the wind and tossed by the sea. 7 A person who has doubts shouldn’t expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 A person who has doubts is thinking about two different things at the same time and can’t make up his mind about anything.
Grace and Peace to you
Mendalla
Posted on: 04/25/2014 19:01
They had a threesome
Someone's probably written it as a fanfic.
Mendalla
GeoFee
Posted on: 04/25/2014 19:10
I am sceptical by disposition and inclination, so I find encouragement in Thomas.
George
jlin
Posted on: 04/25/2014 20:45
Thomas saves us from cult, PC, and small interest groups dominating the resources of a communal endeavor. Thank you for the inner Thomas's in all of us!!!
revjohn
Posted on: 04/26/2014 07:38
Hi unsafe,
We think different is all
We do think different. That isn't all there is to it.
you call it proof text
I call it a proof text because it is an irresponsible use of scripture. It is the removal of a text from its context for the purpose of making it fit your position. That is not you listening to scripture or even inviting others to listen to scripture. That is you forcing a meaning into scripture and by extension threatening everyone else with the message you have forced into scripture.
You want to equate doubt with unbelief. You twist scripture to achieve that end. It is dishonest.
I call it God's word which is alive and active today
Call it what you wish. When you abuse scripture in the way you are prone to do you are not interested in whatever lived or was active in the scripture. You are interested in how you can twist and manipulate it.
there is protocol to get the Help and not doubting is part of the protocol
I recognize that you believe Christianity is a give to get contract. That your participation behooves God to give you what you desire. You aren't the first to buy into such a corrupt understanding and you most certainly won't be the last.
God is not a vending machine which dispenses the product of your desire because you know which buttons to push and which currency to insert.
You are aware, are you not that placing the definitions for two different words side by side allows us to see similarities and differences.
I'm afraid it doesn't change your mistake. Unbelief is to not believe. Doubt is difficulty in believing. They are not the same thing. Not in the English, not in the Greek and not in Strong's
This for me says it best in this what you call proof text ---I call God's word and find it to be very clear ---plain and concise in what it says verse 7 is very plain
What it shows is a) you do not understand the concept of proof-texting which is probably why you do it so often and b) you read only what you want to read and it really doesn't matter who the author is supposed to be.
I'm sure that the James passage is a comfort to you in your singlemindedness.
It certainly highlights some of the difference between us and why you are not content for that difference to be all there is to it.
Grace and peace to you.
John
Beloved
Posted on: 04/26/2014 08:40
We use the phrase 'doubting Thomas' like it's a bad thing. But is doubting always bad? Put yourself in Thomas's shoes for a moment, when the rest of the disciples report they had seen the one he knew had been crucified. How would you have reacted?
I'm thinking of 11 other people in my circle of life. Now, there are some whom I would have difficulty believing. But I can think of at least two who I would not doubt what they said because I trust them in that way.
In saying that about my friends though . . . to me this story isn't so much about doubting others, or doubting what others have said, but rather an encouragement that we need to seek our own truth for our own self. And so, even for the two friends whom I would have believed, I would still need to see for myself. Not because I doubted my friends, but I would have a need to make the truth my own.
We had a minister many years ago who always said not to believe something because he said it, but rather because we had gone out and done our own research and tested it to be truth for ourselves.
unsafe
Posted on: 04/26/2014 09:12
I personally believe that every person Jesus picked for His disciples were picked with a purpose Jesus had in mind for each on -----Thomas relied on faith that was seen so I personally believe Thomas was chose by Jesus because of this type of faith he had in the seen realm ----
In John 11:16 we see just how much Thomas loved Jesus ----He was willing to die for Him
John 11
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
Jesus Brings Lazarus Back to Life
16 Thomas, who was called Didymus, said to the rest of the disciples, “Let’s go so that we, too, can die with Jesus.”
Thomas was a dedicated follower of Jesus but relied on seen Faith ----I personally believe that Thomas was chosen for the future people to show that there is Faith that is seen but then there is true Faith that is unseen ----Many ---many people today only believe in what they see and I think Jesus showed Thomas in this light to bring to our attention the message Jesus was trying to get across which was true Faith is believing in the unseen ---- After Thomas was given permission to touch and see the wounds of Jesus he finally believed it was Jesus -----Jesus was not offended at Thomas because I believe He knew from the start all about Thomas and his doubting and picked him because of it -----
John 20:27-29
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
27 Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Take your hand, and put it into my side. Stop doubting, and believe.”
28 Thomas responded to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to Thomas, “You believe because you’ve seen me. Blessed are those who haven't seen me but believe.”
To me there is a lesson in this scripture for all of us to learn and trust in ------Jesus is not here anymore in human form so we must believe in the unseen Jesus who is alive and well today and whose words are alive and active and work today as they did when Jesus walked this earth -----True Faith is believing in an unseen Jesus and relying on His seen word to bring Peace -- Agape and Blessings to us so we can pass it on to others in need -------
These are just my thoughts on this ----Peace to all
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 04/26/2014 10:06
I believe in Thomas a doubt us and thus that haunting edifice of the spirit of un-surity that allows us to question God & everything as declared in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 ... thus we learn different paths (pedes) than wiles gods created by mortal powers without thoughts ... unless you like mindless phoqah! Myself I believe them dangerous ... far morso than thinkers.
They shall soften in die in the Shadow of the psychic edifice and her valle ... surely a surly icon of edifice ... what the Greek called Nus represented by "v" eunuch in the entire spead of earth ... as myrae aD ... one in the north end of the African RIFT! Even Abraham stuffed his Sarah into a hole in the mountains ... like a buried rheað ... sort of subtle in under stan Din, upright chaos in verti co-Sis, the twisted sister going up against pure passion. Like who remained and who rested in Springtime in aLLa's Ka?
GEO did you know that Ka is analogue of edifice? One must know the word ... LOGOS! It is virtually Mrs Understood 'ere allowing free wiles ... just for a pass'n lesson of whats beyond 'ere ... nut'n but myth! Things we don't much look into ... as interstice ... purely metaphorical compared to what you've seen to this point. So much yet unseen ...
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 04/26/2014 10:16
Have faith in what you don't know ... and perhaps someday through the collective unconscious "i" you can see consciensously ...
Albeit this could be disturbing an Jared-like from the present contained visage. Did you know Jared appears 200+ times in the bible and few are excited about not understaning nothing? This is how everything of good sense contains their emotions ... in a Greek URnin ... allows for outlander-like intelligence ... almost outlandish like-as-Tory od Judis Maccabees and the sacred life of this hive of wisdom ... Essene unseen ... mortals mostly didn't wish to ... consequence of freed wiles ...
To get a grip one must get right into psyche things that you have to go some to get into ... an odd shift like some scientists say about crossing the horizon event of a BH that differs from BS, or HS! There it all goes into the celestial grinder ... the millers dot'r ... there shell cap it ... as a millinere! with shiyr fabrications!
unsafe
Posted on: 04/26/2014 10:21
Hi revjohn
Your opinion is just that to me revjohn ----your opinion and you are entitled to it ---I don't share your opinion is all ----you believe different than I do ----who is right and who isn't will be known when we die -----for me God's word is a lamp to my way and a light to my feet and I don't have any doubts about that -----
If you want to believe doubting is a good thing than you have every right to believe and doubt ----I personally don't believe in doubt and I will stick with what God has to say in His word about all who doubt -----I want to hear and do what God wants me to do in this life I live for Him and His word is very clear on how doubt affects God in our lives -----
You can doubt if you want to but I don't want to ---this is very plain in what it says --you can dispute it all you want but it will still say what it says ---Period ----
James 1---I repeat ---
7 A person who has doubts shouldn’t expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 A person who has doubts is thinking about two different things at the same time and can’t make up his mind about anything.
This scripture James 1:22-23 also tells us to do the word ----James 1 is a very good read for all who doubt -----
Grace and Peace to you
revjohn
Posted on: 04/26/2014 12:04
Hi unsafe,
Your opinion is just that to me revjohn ----your opinion and you are entitled to it
Nice try. I'll show you why in just a moment.
If you want to believe doubting is a good thing
Here it is. Nowhere have I said that doubt is good, bad or neutral. Go ahead and re-read the thread. If you can find a place where I have said doubt is good then quote me.
See, if I was really entitled to an opinion you wouldn't be trying to put words in my mouth. Also if my opinion was only that you wouldn't be trying to put words in my mouth either.
Now either you have misunderstood and if you can misunderstand me so easily then perhaps it is just as easy for you to misunderstand others.
than you have every right to believe and doubt
At least here you are treateing them as if they are not the same thing. It is probably just an error and you'll correct it later.
I personally don't believe in doubt
Whether you believe in doubt or not it exists. You doubt many others in this space so I don't think you don't believe in doubt you simply doubt others who believe.
and I will stick with what God has to say in His word about all who doubt
Or at the very least what you wish to believe God has to say in his word about all who doubt.
You can doubt if you want to but I don't want to ---this is very plain in what it says --you can dispute it all you want but it will still say what it says ---Period ----
What have I said I have doubted? Other than your interpretation and use of scripture?
Grace and Peace to you
John
unsafe
Posted on: 04/26/2014 12:49
Hi revjohn
Here we go around the mountain -----Grace and Peace to you revjohn --Have a great weekend
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 04/26/2014 17:26
There UNSAFE goes in a doubtful state of mind ... being she possibly doesn't even believe in sol' or displaced Erse ...