Yep. I agree with you Mendella. A little too erotic for what people like to THINK it is, when they try to  whitewash everything. 

Sometimes things are exactly what they seem.  Eroti, carnal love is NOT evil, inside a marriage.  It is supposed to be there, in order to keep us from straying. God created that in us for a reason.

As Sigmund Freud is attributed to saying (although there is no actual PROOF)

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

Actually, I'd love to see us move away from the whole classification of love attitude to "Love is Love is Love". Deep connection is deep connection whether it comes from romantic/erotic connection, caring in community, and so on. There may be differences in degree and attributes, but at the heart it's all about deep connection leading to caring.

Mendalla

Love Song of Songs/Solomon - it is a beautiful piece of poetry celebrating both love and erotic sharing of that love, in our scripture.

We've had some great scripture studies on it, had fun with some of the word studies.

One of my favourite times reading it was in a "Women in Religion" class. Someone had said that it was an "allegory for Christ's love for the church" and one of my housemates and I begged the professor to be able to do it as an oral presentation. Both of us were pretty good voice actors and loved the imagery.

It was pretty clear that, allegorise it all one wanted, it's also very sensual expression between two lovers.

Christ's peace - r

While I realize that it can be read as an allegory in at least two ways (Jehovah and the Israelites; Christ and the church universal), I certainly don't believe that that's the way that the book is best interpreted.

I agree with much of what you say Mendalla, that it is an erotic love poem, or perhaps set of erotic love poems. I also agree that the church has tried to manipulate it into something that it is not in order to make it more palatable to the ears of listeners -- this no doubt coming from the mistaken notion that anything that is of the physical body must of necessity be evil.

You can read my paper on one of the book's dream sequences here... http://falconjae.livejournal.com/

I recall asking about it at a church Bible study when I was a teenager.  I was told it was an advanced allegory about God's love for the church and it would be best if I didn't ry reading it when I was so young and not mature enough in my thinking to understand it.

When I told my parents my father nearly choked on his coffee!  Then he said it was about human love and the church folk were too uptight to appreciate it.

It seems approprate to repost a dying Mexican American woman's experience arising from an allegorical treatment of the Song of Songs.  I am drawing this NDE account from Brennan Manning's book, "The Furious Longing of God."  Brennan is one of the most prominent Christian retreat leaders in the USA.  He shares his encounter with Yolanda (then age 37), a Mexican American woman who was confined the only leper colony for Hansen's Disease in the US at Carville, Lousiana. 

“As I was coming up the front steps, a nurse came running towards me:`Brennan, can you come quick and pray with Yolanda?  She’s dying, Brennan.’  5 years ago, before Yolanda was struck with leprosy, she was a drop-dead gorgeous woman.  Now her nose was pressed into her face and her mouth was severely contorted.  She just had 2 little stumps where her fingers had once been!  2 years earlier, her husband had divorced her because of the social stigma attached to leprosy.  He had forbidden her 2 boys to ever visit their mother.  So Yolanda was dying, an abandoned, forsaken woman." 

Brennan says: “I anointed Yolanda with oil and prayed with her.  It had been raining when I came in; but as I turned around to put the top back on the bottle, the room filled with brilliant sunlight…As I turned to look back at Yolanda—and if I live to be 300, I’ll never be able to find the words to describe what I saw—her face was like a sunburst over the mountains, like 1,000 sunbeams streaming over her face, literally so brilliant I had to shield my eyes.  I exclaimed: 'Yolanda, you appear to be very happy.'`Yes, Jesus' Father just told me He would take me home today.'  I asked her just what the Heavenly Father said.  She replied: 

`COME NOW, MY LOVE.  MY LOVELY ONE, COME.  FOR YOU, THE WINTER IS PAST, THE SNOWS ARE OVER AND GONE, FLOWERS ARE SPRINGING UP.  THE SEASON OF GLAD SONGS HAS COME: THE COOING OF TURTLEDOVES IS HEARD IN OUR LAND…COME NOW, MY LOVE, MY YOLANDA, COME LET ME SEE YOUR FACE.  LET ME HEAR YOUR VOICE. FOR YOUR VOICE IS SWEET AND YOUR FACE IS BEAUTIFUL.'"

God was quoting almost verbatim Song of Songs 2:10-14.  But God inserted Yolanda's name into the quotation.  She was illiterate and had never read the Bible or any other book for that matter.  Nor had Brennan ever quoted this passage to her during prior visits.  “6 hours later, her little leprous body was swept up into the furious love of her heavenly Dad."

The Song of Songs was originally composed as erotic poetry, some of the earliest in human history.  It was included in the biblical canon because it was viewed as an allegory of God's love for His people.  In this sense, it fits neatly with all the biblical texts that portray God and Jesus as romantic suitors who approach and seduce us as mystical lovers when we are open and receptive to such a divine romance.

Mendalla,

speak it, brother!

Sex is everywhere.  The ground meeting my feet as I walk, the air whispering around my body, the water as I take a shower, my food as it plays with my insides, a touch of someone, of a loved one, of the dying, the sight of a bird in flight...

It's only human beings who can choose to put all this erotic beauty and try and cage it, trap it, make it 'disgusting' or 'pornographic' or or or...

Berserk,

yes, it is good to come for Deity and I'm glad that the people in your anecdote were able to come and come beautifully :3

Holy Cow,

This is awesome ... just imagine pornography in "The Book"!  Uptight people of the Circe will never get their minds about that one ... then they know there are Roman brutes outside the Circus feeding the fires of allah-gory ... and the dark side when fires erupt from ... without apparant Cos! Thus this kind of elite is an underground thing that one excavates for ... is learning po'etrae a paean on the infinitely ambiguous way of life that's sect'd as divine? Speak of the rapture and those clinging to the reality left behind ... love is sort of fluffy and hazy to say the least ... like clouds of words piling up over the edge of my cognizance ... I need to find my soul ... so I can understand the nature of digging out ...

A retired Prof. of English and American Poetry; that I've befriended in my senior years ... when I can allegorically say it don't know for I forgot that in the collaege of my brain ... too many leafs of the story there ... in the Shadow! (pure metaphor) ... once stated:

He was hired to teach young folk concise composition and the nature of poetry which he defined as that writ so that few would understand when common people express thier emotions. This latter item something that was not to be within the realm of pagans/plebians by Roman rule as they crucified and burnt all the thinking noodles some 2000 ya'ears ago. Yet like an ember in an amulet ... there is chi in that subliminal dimension ... a synapse ready to fire ... a nue Ron auld thing ... having severe depth of dimension like the liefs of the mind stay as flakes in old times now just referred to as flaky, or nerdish! People who deal with the other side of sole ... that's dark ae? Come on Mon into the Shadows ... so much to learn ... about words flying all about as a dark pool ... thinly understood as ethereal!

Then how would an immortal God speak as compared to a mortal God ... frightful comparison of conflicting idioms ... and a minsister I know once started a funeral with the comment there were no conflicts in the bible ... making me wonder about near infinite sects ... all telling the other to go to 'elle and the Romans directing them to stay out of there as a roué ... that's as decree d' manna heuristic word ... rule a t'um ... causing much naval staring when the bel lie is exposed as expanding ... after the fact! Did you goe Sur ... Haddassh  asked about actions in the marketspace ... sacred underground soos few will understand and many will be in a state of chaos over the following cicumstantial eve-id-antes that surrounds the point ... the gross-est satire on the divine state of Black Market actions ...

Pure soul ful Ness, which is a dark state ... of A'Phree Can Shadow ... in a spin of words intended for real people not to understand and become literate in isn't Ness ... a deuce of a negative providing creative up-come-ance from below ... that's sole moan ... bottom line senses of nonsense ... like God isn't ... just a grand lack 've sense. Some call it creeping ... like ignorance when you don't have to think ... in altered states sometimes caused by the creature in the vial wiz-Qui? Jack Daniels Eris ESS ... much despised by the Ephemeral as they lose control too ... very un Roman-like ... God's who like to control all when they don't have a clew about conception of everything ... that's infinite and nothing in a Knot ... Nuit's Heil?

If you don't learn to read Complexity ... phonetic Allah ... yule learn nothing of the dark gift of A'Don's Eris'n from a stone ... as a beauty ... a hard cut thinker? Its a Jared tho'T ...

This has developed into a very interesting thread.  My initial comment was based on a commentary by Michael V. Fox.

Fox also states...."The Song of Solomon has been understood in radically different ways......There are no signs that the author intended to depict any sort of experience other than human, sexual love.  Nevertheless, one may legitimately bring meaning to a book as well as draw them from it.  As a superb portrayal of adolescent erotic love, the words of the Song can - by a bold reinterpretation - be applied to other types of love, such as the divine benevolence that bestows loving blessings on humankind, the human devotion that transcends death, or the mature sexual communion solemnized in marriage."

Gecko,

Did you know that death in Hebrew is ultimate wisdom ... sort of like when love reflects upon ID's elf after the soul less part?

Did you ever get the feeling that you were born on the wrong side of God's ole ... and much trod upon in the dark? Do you ever get that sinking feeling your falling into an alien dimension ... of floaters where maybe it's not as bad as some view it on this side of the line in d' san ... that's beyond what's viewed reality as something else ... when escatalogical ends meet? Thats putting a sole together with Lem the Hebrew heart that's dark ... lost in the past of Roman Empirics!

Is there exchange for drifting on the other side a' coine ... a nuther form of non-sense in Black misunderstood words? Archetypical print ... dunne by hand as someone desired ... thus the old adage: Nothing is script without some alien love ... may not have been the scribe and thus the miss takes in understanding the bo-ish phone as it stands ... ETI-Kallae ... mire word?

Compensation For In Version …

Stepping outside into the real word of intellect …

Th’ein finite journey!

Is anything questionable, everything, all-that-is?

There’s ab-iggy; uncertainty …

A mortal God in realm that sees nothing below …

Or beyond what they can see as real!

What you can form locus on, in your mind …

Is just irrational point, or Complex Nos. …

Beyond the event horizon, where one learns?

The realm of plebeian, that which is not supposed to be known …

In common, heiros gamos, sacred stuff …

We would never be taught about by god’s representatives …

Caesar’s priests speaking from the grave side …

That’s gravid for listening as dark fore runner …

Of John, that’s common jaw’n for digesting prophets …

What hired forces are doing to Wii that support eM …

A’mire enigma, all those wee folk for nothing?

There has to be resolution on the abstract’s Ide!

The abstract, being dark and ascetic, like Spartan …

Quite different than epicurean, aesthetic, delight, upright ethic …

Standing, ferme, trying to see through the fog imposed by …

Abstract, non-representational, Gods …

That don’t appear anything like the bottom line …

Starving, pained and learning about the real world …

As lying there, below the events, aĐ’myst, or atom “-ist” …

Not forgetting the wee things of supportive nature …

That may be gnawing at your insides …

Even tho’ you hold them there, in denial …

Ade Lucian all-image, that can haunt your altered aware Ness …

That Dark Pool when you’re out of it; pithy hole!

The abstract side is shyer chaos, creatively …

As crazy as soul of love, in white out conditions …

Essentially numb, or numinous on the other side …

Beyond de SHOE of present I smoor …

Darkly expressed on the page as maize word …

Accede to Γae nude thought!

That cannot be told for fear of the Roman rule …

That we people cannot know what’s commonly around us …

As ecco-logical, intelligence, but who’d step …

Beyond that shuol of rule …

Like Christ living outside the dark rule of man meant for conflict …

And destruction of your neighbour, so you can step over him …

Moe Vite over!

When IDs chewed over enough …

By the unseen …

Will IT all fall over the edge …

As Dante ’n Comedy of poe ET’Ique form?

That few can unravel to conserve your desire to survive here …

For some ungodly, or devilish, subtle rationale …

To learn more of what’s this all about?

As Harold Bloom stated mankind seems to be the only …

Bean acceded here to the fact of when …

Enough is enough and when …

IT’s time Toby Goan, odd construct that’ll bede athe ‘v meiç, wee phoqah, muse-I “C”, ‘omi Erse; Homer’s!

Hi Mendalla,

Amen.

With respect I think you have fallen into the same old trap of making this either generic and holy/ or deep and carnal.  The book is clearly of the both/and persuasion.  Love between two human beings is both generic (in that any two can enjoy it), holy (as in set apart for specific purpose), as well as, deep (in the sense that intimacy is deep)  and carnal (in the sense that carnal is physical and not necessarily evil).

Brilliant point.  Amen.

Agreed.  Sex can be about sharing pleasureable experience.  I wish it automatically was about sharing.  Sadly that does not appear to be the case.  Even though I believe sex is abused I do not think that the presence of abuse should demean what is offered as a gift.

Grace and peace to you.

John

[quote=WaterBuoy]

Gecko,

Did you know that death in Hebrew is ultimate wisdom ... sort of like when love reflects upon ID's elf after the soul less part?

Did you ever get the feeling that you were born on the wrong side of God's ole ... and much trod upon in the dark? Do you ever get that sinking feeling your falling into an alien dimension ... of floaters where maybe it's not as bad as some view it on this side of the line in d' san ... that's beyond what's viewed reality as something else ... when escatalogical ends meet? Thats putting a sole together with Lem the Hebrew heart that's dark ... lost in the past of Roman Empirics!

Is there exchange for drifting on the other side a' coine ... a nuther form of non-sense in Black misunderstood words? Archetypical print ... dunne by hand as someone desired ... thus the old adage: Nothing is script without some alien love ... may not have been the scribe and thus the miss takes in understanding the bo-ish phone as it stands ... ETI-Kallae ... mire word?

Hi WaterBuoy - I didn't know that "death was regarded as ultimate wisdom in Hebrew".....but it makes sense.

In Buddhism death is not the end of life, it is merely the end of the body we inhabit in this life.  A new, and perhaps wiser person will be reborn.

Sex in a Roman hostile world of monotheism (without clews on the intangeable) is often about screwing the other belief system right into a Nelle ... that has no meaning unless you can relate to the Greek "n" as "h" a hellenistic attitude about Classic Philosophy. This is further reinforced by the knowledge of the common nature of the Hebrew "b" and "n" converting helle into a belle .. and thus it tolls ... for those not following Roman hostrility decrees .. an empiric we follow today ... as once chiseled into the stone mind of man ... it is difficult to change even in the light of odd situations ... mankind does not like to think of humanism as despised by Roman Brutes under the power of their God ... a mortal ... that hangs about in the spirit of hate in a mortal head'space ... maqon trouble down in GEO Ghia closed case like pithy nuits ... Shadowy conceptions of anything Butte ... purely cracked and Jared ... as is ... in a real pickle ... and still they can't see ...

Any one hear read of and desire possession of stone cold angels ... some are like portals to OBI other dimensions of tho'T ... there are some caldrons in which  you can melt eM down and do some conversion ... really screws up their old way of thinking of divers idioms ... that being images different that themselves ... can be intruiging ... like geisha ... or poldergeist .... that require severe interpretation before you can say what they are ... or what isn't in their aura ... of influence ... causing the meltdown of men ... despised by Roman Officers about to do battle with soldiers in a slump ... no fight left eM after communion (intercourse) ... sapped out like the suite tree ...sycamore, near to the Cana daian MayP'L ... trees Maasing with your hed ...? That floes ... of unseen loci ... logus ... of a breath below the horizon? Sublime thoughts of conjugation of alien expressions ...

While those are good messages, I see it more along these lines:

Fingers can be used in many wonderful ways.  Once you discover a finger pointing to the moon, however, all the other wonderful uses of fingers get bathed in that moonlight, and somehow the fingers themselves absorb it to such an extent that, even on a sunny day, they remain incandescent. Life, and sex, are no longer the same.

IT all becomes metaphorically ambiguous and dive in parallal tracks that one has to work at to gain some understanding of weaving ... once holy discouraged by Roman Religion ... thus the phun Neigh hats adopted by many other sects ... to prevent over production ... yet they too fell to desires of the market place ... Haddassah's Bazaar?

Unbalanced growth ... like a one armed toller ... theis goan ah get cha ... but you won't know anything ... so no fear ... or perhaps you'll know everything ... and that could be scarey to the other's Ide ...

It's a beautiful writing Mendella, but one has to wonder if Solomon wrote this or not. Afterall, which one of his 300 wives or 700 concubines did he choose to bless with such intimacy?

Solomon, 300+700=1000 ... and old Hebrew expression of full Ness much altered by many translations.

Could be full Ness of Time, Space, or Light of de situation which is mostly dark in the human instance as mortals know little of the anonymous autonomous state ...

In the terms of Webster who defined the greater soul (sole Mons; swelling, or Big Foot) as Intellect that's out there ... they must have been movers unlike the minds of mortals that are limited in the cosmic Dan's ... the Romans knew as a spatial daemon ... Toby tromped upon?

Is the word like a god ... little understood? Quite dark too the way it is often expressed with depth of implication ...

Who'da thought in a montheistic perspective ... that beaing outside the boxed Norm ...

I think the Song of Solomon is a beautiful erotic/romantic love poem. Although Paul seems to be down on romantic love, and extolls the virtues of Agape, Eros is a valid type of love and the Song is a love poem.

Moreover, the sexual union is a union between opposites, and, like any other union between opposites, a spiritual union and communion.

Great porn.

I'll wait for the movie.

As erotic poetry, the Song os Songs represents one of most ancient examples in human history.  There are a few earlier examples but to meditate on the imagery in the Songs is to meditate on a cultural breakthrough.  At this point in history the mystery and beauty of love cries out for poetic and aritistic expression.  The poem was orginally intended to be taken literally.  But both Jews and Christians canonized it for its allegorical application.  In the early church, the Songs served as an elegant foundation for deepening the seeker's romantic bond with Jesus. 

The context of Revelation 3:20 is the Lord's rebuke of the Loadicean church's "lukewarm" devotion  Jesus explains that He'd rather their love be "cold" than "lukewarm."  The implication is that it's better to be an agnostic or atheist than an apathetic believer.  Go all out for Jesus, or don't even bother with Him!  Jesus often presents Himself in 'Revelation as the bridegroom of His church, the Bride.  So this imagery lurks in the background of the invitation in 3:20.  Likewise, the romatnic imagery of Song of Songs 5:2-6 is based on the Bride's longing for her courting Lover.  Thus, the  passionate tone of the Lord's invitation in Rev. 3:20 only emerges from the insight that it is inspired by Song of Songs:

Rev 3::20: "Look! Here I stand at the door and knock.  If you hear my voice and open the door, I will c ome in and feast with you and you will best with me.."

Song of Songs 5:2-6: "One night, as I was sleeping, my heart awakened in a dream.  IO heard the voice of my Lover.  He was knocking at my door: Open to me, my darling, my treasure, my lovely dove!  For I have been out in the night.  my head is soaked with dew, my hair with the wetness of the night."  But I said to myself; "I have taken off my robe.  Should I get dressed again?  I have washed my feet.  Should I get them soiled?  My lover tried to untatch the door, and my  heart thrilled within me.  I jumped up to open it.  My hands dripped with perfume, my fingers with lovely myrrh, as I pulled back the bolt.  I opened to my lover, but he was gone.  I yearned for even his voice!  I searched for him, but I couldn't find him.  I called to him, but there was no reply."

With this background, Jesus' warning to the Laodicean church insists on "hot" or passionate engagement with Him while He can still be found standing at the door.  In other words, if we delay this engagement due to various excuses, we may well miss out altogether.  [Sadly, neither text is in the lectionary.]

When the Song of Songs is taken allegorically, the powerful expression of love's supreme value in 7:6-7 becomes a compelling expresssion of our mutual bond with Christ, our Bridegroom: "Place me like a seal upon your heart, or like a seal on your arm.  For love is as strong as death, and its passion is as enduring as the grave.  Love flashes like fire, the brightest kind of flame.  many waters cannot quench love; neither can rivers drown it.  If a man tried to buy love w ith everything he owned, his offer would be utterly despised." 

Who would you cast for that movie?  They don't have to be current/alive.

Oprah Winfrey and Woody Allan.

i thought it was 700 wives and 300 concubines...

either way, this guy had issues.

I believe there are feww scholars who would claim this book (or the books of Proverbs and Eccleciastes) were actually written by Solomon, despite the traditional claims that they were.  However, it is argued that the link to Solomon made it much more likely that the Sonog of Songs made it into the canon.  Same thing can be said about Ecclesisates.

Yes, I agree with Gord. The Songs probably were written by authors other than Solomon, just like the Psalms were not written by David himself but by other authors, possibly long after the alleged author had died. The Songs were written in the memory or spirit of Solomon, and to honour Solomon. Sometimes the authors were mystics who accredited their visions to revered personages, prophets or deities, and therefore felt justified to write in their name.

Moses, for instance, was a mystic who had visions of what he thought was God, and therefore felt justified or empowered to write on behalf of God.

Brother Arminius, I believe you'll find that many scholars hold that much, if not all, of what has traditionally been attributed to Moses was actually written by others.

Waterfall beat me out on the movie. I could never pick a better pair.

But an important point was raised earlier. Solomon had quite a menage to pick from. That suggests his love was lacking in any spritual qualities. After all, if you're looking for spiritual fullfilment, you should be able to find it in the first  fifty or so. Certainly, after a hundred or very little more, I had used up my spiritual capacity.

Of course, the message might be that Solomon was a man of limiiltess spiritual intensity, and therefore an example to all of us men to aspire to. Of course, that necessarily leaves women with the short end of the stick, so to speak.

giggle

Hi Mendalla

I so agree with you, it is an erotic love poem , now you have me reeling :), that's it tonight I'm gona feed my wife grapes while reading the Song of Solomon to her, please all don't post to my threads tonight i will be busy , Solomon this better work, Mendalla if all goes well I slip you a 20$ tomorrow for posting this thread .

May I also suggest the Kama Sutra........that will be $40.00.

Sorry, MC, I misspoke. What I said about biblical books having many authors equally applies to the Books of Moses.

When I said that Moses felt empowered to write on behalf of God, I actually meant to say that I think he felt empowered to act as a spokesperson for God, and that those who wrote in his name either felt empowered by God or by Moses, and thus felt authorized to write in Moses' name. Thus, Moses' authorship was spiritual rather than personal or literal.

Jesus is a prime example of someone who felt authorized by God. I think he had visions or experiences which he interpreted as at-one-ment with God, and thus felt authorized to speak on behalf of God.

What is the Book of Muses anyway?

Just a Tome/Ðøem of mire thoughts as carved in de dirt?. No wonder Sues/Zeus is often protrayed as dervish on the horizon ... many can't see it coming ... as the Shadow persona ... now there's athe ought ...

Roman authority as brutal wouldn't like that ... they overruled any coine containing the desire to think ... and we fallow such Law blindly ... sort of sheepish secretly knowing we think ... thus guity as afore said ...

Get over it Phoqah ... like Sisyphus ... it's a long drag ... giggle a bit a small whine will biere the soul ... in Ðue time ... doubled images creates de deux of yah ... imaginary companion ... the Shadow as Occult ... that's dark words in yer 'ead you don't understand ... have no means of supporting em ... without desire to meditate on eM ... that's the quantum medium ... light and frothy as spy' toute ... all of IT ... toute la monde ...

Accept it as your mantle as you transcend this latent spatial mode ... heavy armour? Lighter email is moor f(unctionable) ... a good Reuben humour ... bloody creative ID sae ...

Einstein called this a dippy dimension if you can read into his metaphor about pits in space ...

Hosea 2 might be read as a later (more mature?) stage in the relationship.

Hi WB:

The Book of Muses?

It is the greatest book of them all! It is God's creation and God's TRUE word—without any doubt! I read it all the time.

Wherever thou goest, I will be there.

It is an extensive if explicit entity .. although perhaps in implicit space that may have closed with a Bang ... like a bo'que unread?

Like word it's all over the place ... if you can understand wandering muses of naked condition as they wore out their private clothes ... a darkly misunderstood dimension to say little about ... for what do we know of this exterior situation ... beyond us?

Mendalla!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I owe you 20 bucks 

Hey, BB - you may want to be careful with some of the phrases -

Song of Songs 4:2 and 6:6 may get you hit.

Just from one sib to another!

Christ's peace - r

30 yrs , has given me plenty of duck and weve experance 

Thats' a we've like a worm between the fab-REX ... tyranny of the scrooged ...

Not enough Torah ... there's moor ... toth' poeL! Saes so in d' bo'Que ...