Well, he's rather obviously correct there.

Hi John Wilson,

Maybe this is just a very vague statement which finds its justification in our prejudice rather than in actual practice.

Define a traditional church.  Define an atraditional church.  Define a non-traditional church.  More importantly, what is Spong defining as a "traditional church" and do we agree with Spong's definition?

Indeed it does.  It points to the original sin which introduced alienation into the relationship enjoyed between humanity and divinity.  Which is a theological problem.  Darwin only becomes a threat if one decides that Darwin speaks in any way at all to the theological problem.

I don't think that he does nor do I think that he was attempting to.

I'm not quite sure that is the case.  Yes Darwin introduces a mechanism to Creation that operates differently than we read at first blush in Genesis.  What, though, is the purpose of Genesis?  Is it to tell us how everything came into being or is it to tell us who is responsible for everything that came into being?

I am aware that many of my spiritual brothers and sisters very much want Genesis to be a blue-print for Creation.  I am not convinced that is a proper use of the text.  Mind you few of them are convinced that my emphasis on the who is an altogether proper use of the text.

Bearing in mind that Spong is influenced by Christian fundamentalism in ways that I have never been I find it difficult to grapple with many of his ideas.  Quite frankly I don't think that Spong has abandoned fundamentalism so much as a particularly slanted fundamentalism.

I believe that I have spent my whole life in what is a traditional church.  I have never noticed that there is any fear or trepidation with respect to Darwin.  If memory serves the last time the ROM had a Darwin exhibit either the UCCAN or the Observer was a sponsor.

Frankly half the time I am reading Spong I have the distinct impression that he lives in a world quite unlike mine.  A world where the science and theology relationship is either/or while all my life and all my study of the Christian tradition suggests that the relationship between science and theology is very much both/and.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I've tried to write a reply to this, but I'll just quote this passage from the wisdom of RevJohn and leave it at that. I can't say it any better.

Mendalla

This is the gospel:

This is the gospel after Spong gets through with it:

There is a faint resemblance, and he can easily fool anyone who has no inclination to read the gospel for themselves.

But it doesn't float.

Spongs gospel is a martian tripod??? :3

Weird...

You hotlinked the image. That's bad form and places like Tripod won't let you get away with it. Get an imgur account and their chrome addin, and right-click to rehost images there before you post them.

chansen,

could you please give examples of what is and is not a hotlink?

is the image function here on the rich text editor on WC hotlinking?

It is. As chansen says, best bet is to rehost the image on a host that does allow hotlinking and link to that copy (watch out for copyright, though). Wikimedia is a good source since most stuff there is creative commons licensed and therefore safe to both hotlink and rehost.

Mendalla

Hotlinking is providing the address of an image from someone else's server. Basically, when someone brings up a page on wc, the image is loaded from that other party's server to complete the page they're viewing. You're using someone else's web server every time someone views the image you posted. Some web servers won't put up with it, and a default "don't do that" image is served in its place. Like what happened to SnP here, whose visual metaphor was likely ruined long before Tripod messed with it.

Indeed.

I did find his attachments to dates to bring forth the development of the NT story.

and his use of the Naj Hammidy Libruary...very interesting. 

And I have spend my whole life out of one,,,in their schools though...

The history of Christianity is fascinating and not a resource for an argument of perfection.

Well, let's see---we have Spong, and Credo Dollar ,and West bridge, and politicians.

But is a huge change coming as some proclaim? (with very few details..)

Will congregations move to the Internet? As you can tell, I am very much out of touch...

The closest I come other than reading with interest, is to drink, slowly, a very large glass of wine and remember, as directed, a very wise man.

Cheers...

John.

Hi John Wilson,

The Nag Hammadi library is a great reference for Gnostic literature.  Not such a great one for Christian literature.

Indeed it isn't.  Only the deluded would make such a lofty claim.

Change is always coming.  Its hugeness is often a matter of historical debate.  Either that or an odd mixture of contemporary hopefulness and fear-mongering.

It is being experimented with.  I'm not convinced that it is such a good move.  There are some benefits for those who we might describe as shut-in and yet, I see an overwhelming amount of drawback to such an inherently isolationist strategy.

I am reminded of my brothers and sisters in the Pentecostal Church alongside my Settlement Charge.

Both congregations had Sunday evening services in the summer.  We would sit in our sanctuary and they would have an open air service in their parking lot.  It sounds like an advantage yet in practice it was everybody sitting in their cars with the windows rolled down so that they could hear the band, the only actual contact with others was when the ushers walked up to the car to collect the offering.

I will note that they continue while the United Church has discontinued the evening service in that community.

I suspect you are not alone in that closeness via reading.  Which allows Spong to be somewhat misleading.  I do not know if that is intentional or accidental.  It simply happens.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Depends on what you mean by "move to the Internet".

Should congregations have a presence, perhaps even an interactive one like a forum or other social media, on the Internet? Sure. It's a great way to keep connected, esp. with those who can't make it to the physical church on a regular basis.

Can you have a congregation entirely on the Internet? Technically speaking, you can. Stream the rituals, interact through forums, and so on. That does not mean it is a good idea. I do think being being physically present in a shared space has value.

In UU'ism we have the the Church of the Larger Fellowship, an online "congregation" for those who do not have a UU presence in their area. It does some wonderful stuff but I would only join if it was the only option. As long as I have a physical UU church to attend, I will likely do that and use CLF as a resource rather as "my church". Their site, including their Quest for Meaning spinoff site is worth a look even if you're not UU or interested in UU.

Mendalla

Rev, John's response:

"Indeed it isn't.  Only the deluded would make such a lofty claim."

Ponderings, or things in depoel:

Leads to bottom-line thinking (Christ's Ligne in the san) or sublimities (humble) that few of th'Yuppies would support with their assertive spirits ... thus aleifs to cover up the beginning of the more obscure light (that beyond "the Book" as alien source). Some Lexiconigraphists say we should understand the tongues of many traditions to get a grip on the rush of what we're losing ... ancient (w)rites? Such carries though over time ... with some passion ... or it wouldn't a ben writ--- just a breath it is!

History of Christianity denied? Something that should be questioned; more or less dug into!

But alas in the rush to discover ignorance (crime of passion) such things are below our horizon ... and thus subtleties of ancient literature ... assists in the filtering out of the unknowledgeable of what we really need is out-there ... all about us .. as errors of the past ... something requiring alteration in de course of where we're goan  ere ... HG Well's "time machinations"? We could crank these up with a screw-like device for boring into it ... alternate aspirations? caduces ... did you see that as sprung?

Alas as I've said before you can't say such things directly to stoics! Thus tongue in cheek process and the Ba'aL'd KISS ... the Buss of the AS'S? What the uppidies express to lesser powers ... that know beta and can't do nothing due to blind and deaf powers that observe nothing that they don't accept as personally useful ... then the license 'v N'esse? or just licensousness for the certified and with many letters after there names flowing like robes (fabrics)  that will not be grimed by street sense ... this is purely desired as a place not to go ... or just isn't in many cases!

Thus creation formed two chaos ... one of emotions and one of intellect; a good place to hang out inbetween as an interstitial dimension ... quo'n Ð'm-like it is poorly understood like energy ... and thus emotional science may have IT ... those that are irresponsible while searching may fall aside ... and the true light is obtuse or otherwise obscure ...

Should one read into the myrrh-earth of myth? Dirty pool of satyrs ... dark allegories? I was kicked out of a writers group for believing more than superficial stuff ... like a story has physical presence and moral and ethic (so much rot, is that what was unknown wrote?) the latter portion these PHD's couldn't define ... is that tragic or just sadistic behaviour patterns ... Ja Nus? Hummi, or humus under de leiphs just buried in ripe humur an ancient laughter to beat th'D evil ... the corruption of power?

Dependson how yah read it write?

 Multi-dimensional ankh (tensor) on how the other side is doing in abstraction?

The lives of creationists are dominated by the need for absolute certainty. Religious beliefs provide just that sort of certainty. In the case of fundamentalist Christianity the only way to achieve such certainty is to view the bible as inerrant and to be read literally. The theory of evolution, in that it challenges the creation story in Genesis, is thereby regarded as the thin edge of the wedge. Much of orthodox Christian theology is based upon the doctrine of original sin. This doctrine, of course, is an interpretation of the Genesis creation story. If Genesis falls so much else falls with it. That is the source of the creationists' fear and why they oppose evolution so vehemently, even to the point of using fraud and outright lies in their defensive tactics.

"The theory of evolution, in that it challenges the creation story in Genesis, is thereby regarded as the thin edge of the wedge."

Wedge; in past times this was called quoine, or sometimes a device used to separate words in de flow of things as they are all run together by reductionism, which is common in fundamentals where people like something to stand on (soap boxes, for saponification?) when they'd like to white wash (cat-harsis) the sense of Shadow ... when you don't doubt that there's something more to it.

Then if much of the past was burnt in the burning of books (ðoem things; as discrypt, eras'd) by Romantics 2000 years ago ... you gotta wonder about those fixed in the "present" ide'ology and can't see anything from the aboriginal as alien origins we know nothing about. Like that chit knife spoken of by that Wade Davis chap on his talk to TED.com. Of course in the Search for Ignorance (not knowing about these things) life goes on crudely, or rudely by illiterates in all things in which wordy people are the devil to understand ... in conflict with much or Corinthian (upstanding steles of words)?

Sort a transmutates to a wordy edge that few understand if words are considered "chit" by those that are romantically inclined "not to know"!

Now consider all the words that are out there unknown; it's a dark sphere that surrounds us when contained in milleau ... and goes against the Proverbs 3:5 and Gospel of John in understanding that has been lost due to screw ups in thinking ... processing alien intelligence of things words used to mean ... de rivation of the anihilation of language ... so people could be really ignorant (lack of emotional and intellectual intercourse). That word "in sects" really bugs some senses of anonymous feelings born by all as mis pelt ... other wise a roufe-eL in sheeps hyde'n? Close to be RIFF't of humur!

I met one ignorant man a few days ago on a hill, he on the wrong side of the yellow line, texting while driving at high speed ... due to his free will ... caused me some high brow'n expression that I was about to meet my end ... and thus be out of this Zee of words into an abstract realm where I could drift freely and pick choice words coming out of the numb spot we are in while promoting pure passions as the way to overcome the wisdom of god (in Na word; natrium as an old salt)! Gotta be some light on the other side ... like that twinkle at the end of the tun'eL; where we're at now? Sort of like tubal canes lobotomy with the core care of the related removed ... mahaineim or ma'aih'em mess if you allow for several misplacements of words; substitutionary procces to maintain chaos, so emotional people can't escape gravid situations and why emotional people are not allowed to understand such paranormal concepts ... like a thought right out of here or just as Webster defined intellect! This is Ba Ra or the soul of light as seen through the eye of the Shadow!

When in an emotional pickle use strange words because emotional people don't like to hear another emotions as they convert into thoughts that are not well received ... because of the difficult encompassing self-loves. How does one get through this ... without unknown myths that speak to the insides of the irrational like getting to the route of the "i" of the outside entity ... the encompassment of the M'ss we're in ...

What, you never noticed? How astutely you follow the emotional trend ... as a roué ... probably just a literay thing.

When I worked in the water treatment field a lot of authority treated me like an oriented slave in a pêdé of rice* cede (*Eire Isis a small thing) that feeds a lot of things to the west that are unknown, unacknowledged and denied by the Romantic idea that Roman was the centre of creation, when in truth it is the centre of Republican Destruction if they don't get what they want ...

Example: anything notice what's going on south of Canada? Some people from downthere come here for medicare while the poor down there can't afford to come north. The consequence?

Do as the Romans do ... shut down health care here in Canada and the problem dies or goes back to where it come from ... nothing you'd wish on anybody to depend on a god of pure desires ... gives me the wiles ... of course the solution is painful to those that didn't see the consequeces ... sort of visionaty like and you know what Romantics believe about people that see things they Kan't, so it all goes on tilde ~~~ and so on it flows!

They must be prophets of doom that could be a good story in ... a t(Ð)ome, something to be read but people in the future that are smarter to read stories of ignorance pass'd ... stuff that slowly sinks into the high brow as Heh brewing in chit ... chit eaters of smoke'n hollow, Hebrews with edge, pure irony or simple allegory that can't be cut by emotions alone? The emotional cannot translate or interpret adequately to see multiple chaos theology!

You can almost see the fumes coming out of the ears of the emotional lags, hobnails that pin them down like Roman sol' ...

Probably a para normal thought about fete -ishs ... without adequate edge tuit ...

Lam aD RIFF'Tz on it's own as alien energy ...

Sometimes has an affection for that anon-sense called hue mon psyche (abstract unseen?) nothing to begin with but a good place to store cumulative thoughts (of the integral) to float it away from the emotional h'avies ... so much baggage ...

Akin to Jonah ... or is that John awe in other traditions as common quoin that separates the sects polity-like? They just can't get it together  ... in an underlying field of wisdom ... very subtle at that ...

Where does one find a point to escape? Damn things that Romantics hate as this is where they Luce IT ... the eis of the storm ... when the tapestry of heaven requires pa'thch'n up ... black's myth'n will do ... gives a hoist ... to things realists can't see ... abstractions? MOOR 've the unseen like rever'nds towards para normal ... putting your knows where the emotional powers would rather you not ... could make eM look A'B'D ... or wedged away from their thoughts! Is that quoine with edge scratch'n on de roch ...

Hi  John Wilson--You know John . I can still remember when my Daughter was about 6-7. You see at this time my wife was an atheist. Well my daughter came running in from school . She said Dad I have a problem. Ofcouse I said whats your problem sweetheart.. She said well at school there talking about were mankind came from. I said no problem dear we were made by GOD. She said thanks Dad went into the kichen were her Mom was. In a few mins  she was back. She said now Dad I have another problem . I said whats that sweetheart. Well she said, I ask Mom and she said well first we were in the water then in a tree we became a monkey ,jumped down from the tree an became a baboon  then a man.  I just said thats ok dear thats your Moms side of the family. airclean

And where would you have been without that monkey business hanging about; propped ona stick even?

Reminds me of those 3 monkies ... don't look, don't listen and don't ask ... you might learn something ... the foundation of the church that allows us not to think about everything (if god is everything and not noth'n) the road to arrogance and ignorance ... The Seach for an Devoid State of Soul ... supreme rapture?

Like an eagle soaring ... Eire head!

It seems the process is speeding up ... as in another catasrophic stupid failure in balanced mental function ... we'll all be free of this place ...

"No dear those people don't need anything; just a bullet in the head" and they won't have to worry any more ... the simple solution ... Hitler thought it ultimate regarding thinking powers that interfered with what he really wished to do ... and so it goes ... on and on ... like an old record or story going round and round and few gain any light from it.

Do any of these people have rights? No if there is equivalance that brings us to their level ... sort of humbling equality ... and so it was! And you can be sure relatively everyone will die at the game ... as the former results keep coming around as consequence and we believe it all fixed, created and constant ... but what if we're wrong? The rightous feel there's no hide off their butte ... until they cross over and look at it from the other's IDE ... Heiseinberg! Inserts some Uncertainty ... Random Numbers?

Then there is the unseen, the abstract ... if you can read into IÐ. Do you know the phonetics of Ð, or ð? Projections of icons that you should know but don't wish to for they're alien like Ba ð'mon; the satirical soul ... possible loaded with guano ... fecundy. Nosh -ite! First one has to believe soul hasn't been destroyed by pyres ... or drowned ... salvation of a mysterious sort ... by remote understanding ... in a distant space?