Graeme - In a hurting world, we have set aside one day (well two - Sunday and Monday but most people choose one or the other) to think of all the things we are thankful for and to reach out and invite others to share our celebration.  

Is that a terrible thing?

We have 364 days of the year to feel sorrow, anger, worry, and guilt.  Is it too much to ask for one day to take stock?  

We had one interim minister who thought so.  It seemed he was telling us that as long as somebody somewhere in the world was hungry we shouldn't feel thankful that we had enough to eat and to share, as long as one person was homeless, we were terrible people to worry about fixing the roof so the snow didn't blow in.   Because even those of us who had to count pennies when we went to the grocery store, were better off than someone pawing through a dump, we shouldn't give thanks.    It didn't make sense.

I'm going to church tomorrow, and I'm hoping that the sanctuary will be decorated with the fruits of the harvest, that the music will be uplifting, that the children will have a meaningful opportunity to give thanks, that the sermon will inspire us.  I will go home and cook a small turkey and share it with my daughter and her family, thankful that once again modern medicine and the support and prayers of friends has returned her from the hospital to our circle, that the children are healthy and beautiful, that the leaves are turning a beautiful red and gold, and all is well in my household. 

There are enough days when I worry about the troubles of the world - many of which I can do little about.  How are you going to spend you day?

Manifest Destiny returns in all its glory, eh? It's a bit odd hearing it from Romney, who's usually a bit more of a pragmatist than the regular run of Republicans, but hardly shocking or upsetting. Disappointing, to be sure, given how much they've contributed to f***ing things up for others they are hardly qualified to "rule the world", but hardly upsetting or shocking. It's the same old line that's been spouted many times over that country's history. .

I think seeler mostly nailed it, graeme. Until we learn to appreciate and be truly thankful for what we have (food, housing, relative stability and peace), we really aren't ready to understand those who don't have those things. Thanksgiving is our time to express that appreciation and thankfulness, though we should also take time to be mindful of those who don't have those things. Not in the way that that interim minister handled it, mind you, but certainly there needs to be mindfulness in with the celebration. I guess what I'm saying is that we do have reasons to be thankful and should be, but we should also be ready to make others thankful, too.

Mendalla

These are my thoughts today, prompted I suspect by the planning of our traditional turkey dinner tomorrow with family and friends....

What can I say, I hunger for peace.

LB

--------------------------

Say 'no' to peace
If what they mean by peace
Is a rampart of gleaming missiles
The arming of distant wars
Money at ease in its castle
And grateful poor at the gate

        Brian Wren, Say No To Peace

We haven't learned to be so thankful that we care for others - despite 2000 years of sermons. How long do you think we have to lay the groundwork?

We h ave churches in cities crammed with poverty. How come those cities don't lead the way to reform with the all the thank you sermons?

Where did Jeus say, "Hey, on the seventh day,relax. Don't think. Just be grateful.

Be grateful God gave you food and didn't waste it on Somalians. Be grateful God is dropping bombs on Libyans, and not on us.

It puts a whole new meaning on the story of the samaratin. thank you, God, for beating and robbing Samaritans and leaving us alone.

Might we not also say that in a world of sorrow, anger, worry and guilt, we are given opportunity for the expression gratitude every single morning and through the duration of every single day?

Might that daily practice of gratitude not go a long way toward the easing of our sorrow, the pacifying of our anger, the dissipating of our worry and the alleviation of our guilt?

How many congregations will hear fine phrases of thanksgiving expressed for the great advantage we have over the "others" who languish by the gates near and far? We may be too polite to say "God Bless Canada" right out loud, but will it not be there implicit between the lines of the explicit?

And does that implicit self-satisfaction not ground and endorse the God pretensions of those who bend, to the point of breaking, creature and creation to satisfy the unquenchable desire for profit and power by which we are enslaved to our appetites?

Might gratitude as a way of being present to the troubled world of our experiences not make of the simplest fare a feast?

A Book of Verses underneath the Bough,
A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread — and Thou
Beside me singing in the Wilderness —
Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!

from

The Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám

And one of the problems is that people have no way of getting the information they need to know what is going on.

A poll ealier this week showed that a large majority of the voters there do not know the name of a single candidate running for the Republican leadership.

There has been very little news on the Occupy Wall St. Movement - though we will see round the world demonstrations this month.

I have seen no reports on the civilian (or military) death toll in Libya.

People have to know what is going on in their world before they can think about their faith relationship with it.

they aren't getting that from the schools, and certainly not from the churches. Jesus, in  his parables, spoke about things people knew, that were familiar to them. We can only tell a story about Samaritan and the relionship between Jews and Samaritans two thousand years ago.

Do the churches have no meetings during the week? Nobody is speaking of trashing the sunday service.

Anyway, if it's the importance of a day of relaxing and saying thanks, God, very few, and fewer every week are doing it.

Graeme, you talk a good game, but I wonder what your actions are going to be this weekend?

Graeme - I find out what is going on in the world (all the bad things anyway) by coming on to the WonderCafe and following your threads.    But surprise, I also hear about them in my church and through my Presbytery - usually with a suggestion of what we as individual and as a church might do to make things better.  And also, surprise, I find out quite a bit by watching the news on CBC (not on Fox).  

No, I don't know the names of the people running for the Republicans - I just don't seem to be that interested in American politics.  I have enough trouble trying to remember all the different people involved in politics in my own country.  I've tried to keep track of the main issues in the provincial elections recently.

But I still don't see how being grateful for what I have is so god-awful wrong.  

And Geofee - of course I can be, and try to remember to be, grateful every day of the year - the same as I celebrate the joy of Crist's coming, and the rebirth of the Spirit at any time but especially at Christmas and Easter. I'm glad to have one day set aside especially for Thanksgiving.

And part of giving Thanks is to recognize how fortunate I am, and to reach out to others in an attempt to share the blessings.

I never said it was wrong to be grateful. I said it is wrong to watch the greed and butchery - which we fully participate in - that is happening, and not see any connection of it with faith.

I'm not surprised that Bush, torturer and murderer on a grand scale is the respected member of a Christian church - as was his mass-murdering father.

Somegal, don't be dumbgal. What you wrote is what's called an ad hominem attack, and it has nothing to do with the subject. (But you may not know what ad homimen means. It's what I'm now doing to you.)

But if I spend my days, every day, raping babies, getting drunk, and prowling the neighbourhood pretending to be a Jehovah's witness, and reporting gays to the local Baptist church, that has nothing to do with the behaviour (of lack of it) of the  United Church.

When will you wake up and realize the changes that have happened and that are still happening at an increasing pace? We're watching (and sharing) the very ugly collapse of an empire. nobody has any way of knowing which way this is going to go. There is massive evil around us, some of which we sponsor.  And the church stands there with its face hanging out.

Graeme - I know very well what an ad hominem attack is and that's not what I was trying to do. I was asking, what I think is, a legit question. Leading with your words is one thing, leading with your actions is another.

I am also very well aware of what is going on in the world. I get my information from various sources - and hear lots about from within the walls of my congregation. Just because I don't choose to write about it here on WonderCafe,does not mean I am not aware of the issues.

Finally, your calling me names and putting me down just makes me not want to read your posts - which seems to be counterproductive to your point.

Seeler there is nothing wrong with being grateful for what you have, nothing at all.  Nor are my words directed at you.    But ...

Our world is in a mess right now and something has to give.

That doesn't mean that you have to give all.  It means each of us have to give a little something.

Giving doesn't just mean money, although we live in a world that believes that money is everything.  Sometimes giving means speaking out.

We have a government that is spending millions on Religion Offices, G8 flower pots and swimming pools but is slashing every social service net this country created and people are falling through the holes.  Where are the voices saying, No.

Our American friends are struggling and both our governments are working together to spend millions to build a fence.  Where are the voices saying, No. 

Around the world a handful of people are making money hand over fist while millions starve.  Where are the voices saying, No.

The whispers are not loud enough.  Our lone voices are not being heard.  We need to be reminded to speak together and louder.

Yes this weekend is a weekend for each of us to be thankful for what we have been blessed with, but surely there is enough room at the table for some thought to those who are not so fortunate.  A moment between the courses when an idea of what can be done to change the direction this world is heading can be nurtured into fruition so that next year more people can be thankful, and the year after that more and more.....

LB

----------------------------

Thanksgiving comes to us out of the prehistoric dimness, universal to all ages and all faiths.  At whatever straws we must grasp, there is always a time for gratitude and new beginnings. 

       J. Robert Moskin

Muskoka - I couldn't agree with you more. Of course we can pause in our celebration to remember those who aren't able to share it with us. I'll be remembering my son in a far away country, and also those who are alone this year - my sister and her husband who lost a son only a few years ago and still miss him and whose other son seems too busy much of the time to even make a phone call (but who's wife always makes sure her parents are remembered).  

Somehow I get the impression from the opening post that there is something inherently wrong with celebrating when there is chaos and darkness in this world. I think that perhaps when so much is wrong might be the very time when we need to refresh ourselves and think of so much that is right.

It might also be interesting to look at the thread where people tell what they are thankful for. Very few mention material things - other than good food. They talk about friends, family, etc.

It might also be interesting to note that right after Thanksgiving comes World Food Day - the Sunday when we think about those who are hungry and try to find solutions to the problem of what we eat and how it could be more equally distributed so that all would have enough.

From our thanksgiving comes our concern for others and our willingness to share.

very nice. where do you fit in the concern about our air force killing LIbyan civilians? Any moral message in there?

And how do you deliver it if most people have very little idea of what is going on.?

fifty million americans are living on good stamps, while public taxes went to make the super rich even richer. (the same process is going on in Canada. We just haven't hit the trough yet. shouldn't our faith react to it? But how can it when our people are so badly informed?

somgal, an ad hominem attack is one that focuses on the person rather than the issue. it's wrong. but that's what you did. As to posing as a leader, I never did any such thing. And I would find it demeaning to justify my existence for you. If you stop reading me, I can live with that.

very nice. where do you fit in the concern about our air force killing LIbyan civilians? Any moral message in there?

And how do you deliver it if most people have very little idea of what is going on.?

fifty million americans are living on good stamps, while public taxes went to make the super rich even richer. (the same process is going on in Canada. We just haven't hit the trough yet. shouldn't our faith react to it? But how can it when our people are so badly informed?

somgal, an ad hominem attack is one that focuses on the person rather than the issue. it's wrong. but that's what you did. As to posing as a leader, I never did any such thing. And I would find it demeaning to justify my existence for you. If you stop reading me, I can live with that.

(Graeme)

an ad hominem attack is one that focuses on the person rather than the issue. it's wrong.

------

So why do you,knowing this, so often indulge?

Graeme - don't you think that I am concerned about this?  and about our government and army cooperating with torture? and about the lack of progress in helping out the earthquake victims in Haiti? and about pollution, corruption, exploitation, illness, global warming, etc. etc. etc.   

Would it help if I held a vigil? or went on a fast? or sat around complaining about it?  

You've been asked what you are doing this weekend, and I'm waiting for an answer.  Perhaps I could do the same and help you to solve the world's problems.  

No.  Instead I think I will continue to do my best to follow the one who danced and drank wine at a wedding celebration, who took time to speak to children, who notice the lilies of the field and the birds of the air, who blessed the bread and gave thanks, who healed the soul of a poor woman with a bent over back.   And did this while his country was occupied by a cruel and greedy foreign army and collaborators from among his own people.

Graeme - I am sorry that my words came across as an ad hominem attack. That is not how I intended them to come across. 

Perhaps you don't see yourself as a leader, but that's something I've perceived of you - especially when you talk (in other threads) of your days as a professor and as a radio personality. We all have times in our lives when we are leaders (whether we wish to be or not) - just as we all have times when we are followers. While I respect a person who leads with their words, I have much more respect for someone who leads with their actions.

I wanted to know what you are doing this weekend for the very reason Seeler mentioned - perhaps you have come up with ideas and actions that I can learn from and use or adapt in my own community.

Hi graeme,

Somegal is not engaged in an ad hominem attack.  Nothing can be inferred from her question about your character.

Had you answered the question and Somegal had then gone on to attack your character as a result, that would have been an ad hominem attack.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Have a wonderful Thanksgiving Graeme, however you choose to spend it.

revJohn, learn what words mean. don't play word games.

Somegal - okay. I spend much of my day surveying news around the world. every morning, I write a blog on the quality of reporting in our local daily. It takes a couple of hours.  I try to get out the story of what is really happening - and what the papers do not cover. And where they are lying.

To find the blog, go to google - Graeme Decarie Moncton Times. It will be on the first page that comes up. It's called The Moncton Times and Transcript - Good and Bad.

I conduct a current events group at the Moncton library.

I teach a senior's group in writing every week. (Last year, I taught classes in writing and history.)

I am involved in the anti-shale gas campaign In New Brunswick.

I am also involved in next week's Occupy Moncton protest.

In my last church,I taught Sunday School, and often led the service,  I also led a monthly current events group.

Before I retired, I arranged a number of social action meetings at my church - at the request of the minister. I was also invited to give an average of 60 talks a year, mostly to Jewish groups. I also had a  current events group that met monthly for fifteen years at the Eleanor London Library in Montreal. (Cote St. Luc). Attendance ranged from 200 to a capacity 300.

I was also for some fifteen years on the provincial executive of  the anglo rights group in quebec. that took up most of my nights, and some of my weekends.

I still, but only occasionally, write for magazines. The last one was, I believe, a criticism of Canadian universities that appeared in reader's digest. But I generally don't write for commercial papers or magazines because I have learned there are subjects they will not touch. The same, to a lesser degree, is true of CBC, which fears what Ottawa will do to it. that's why I started a blog.

Getting things rolling in Moncton is a real chore. New Brunswickers are the most passive people, politically, I have ever seen. As a result, they have been cheated blind by their political paries and the bosses who own the political parties and the newspapers. We are now getting handed a budget which was actually prepared by representatives of major corporation. they officially are in charge of NB economic planning - and are paid out of our taxes to do it. (There are no tax raises for corporations in the budget.)

Great, Graeme.  Thumbs up!   But many of us do not feel called or do not have the talents that you have,   Many of the people in my church are involved in many of the things you mentioned and many that you didn't  (ie  mining in the Philippines.   Many of the UCC clergy and lay people that I know have taken part in various protest marches.  Many write letters to the various government departments voicing various concerns.  And we vote.

What does that have to do with celebrating Thanksgiving with joy and gratitude?

When we celebrate we recognize how very fortunate we are.  We did nothing to deserve it.  We didn't earn it.   But God's grace has provided for us.   And not all equally.  My family has battled illness for the last year and a half - and chronic illness for many years.  We've lived in poverty and fear it again.  My mother died when I was a child and my father was in depression.   My husband lost his father when he was only seven.  He grew up deprived - and had no opportunity to get an education beyond elementary school.  It took me years to convince him that he is not stupid.  Still we feel thankful for the good gifts that we do have rather than dwelling on the bad.  And we may be just a bit more sensitive to the suffering of others and a bit more concerned about the direction the world seems to be going in. 

And, oh yes, I vote - and my children vote.   Despite everything that has happened in Canadian politics in recent years, we still believe that the vote is a powerful thing.  The right to vote is one of the things we are thankful for.

Hi graeme,

I'm not playing any word games graeme.

Argumentum ad hominem is a character attack and somegal did not make one.  Somegal asked what you would be doing this weekend. 

She may have been asking so that she could measure your answer against the standard of criticism you began or she may have been asking because she was interested in what you might be doing that is different from what you criticize.

At no time did she comment on your character or attack your position based on her estimation of your character.

Grace and peace to you.

John

The question was not a casual one. Nor did my own activities have anything possible to do with the argument. The debate was not over I was doing enough - but over whether the churches were doing enough. You should know that. (Maybe you do).

Seeley - read closely. then close you eyes and think. I have no objection to anybody celebrating thanksgiving. I have never suggested i have. Ii don't even care if you every hour on the hour say Thank you, God."  You can even say a camp grace at every meal. "God is great. God is guhd. And we thank Him for our fuhd."

Now, please look back in this thread and read what I was saying.

I begin to understand why Woodsorth left the church in order to be a Christian.
 

Graeme - thank you for answering my question. I would be curious to hear what you did with your Sunday School class around social justice issues? I am always looking for new ideas for my group. I'd also be curious to hear the approximate ages of the kids in your group.

I found our service today to be very much oriented towards social justice. In addition to collecting food for two of our local food banks (the one at the university and the one operated by a United Church social services agency downtown), the sermon focussed mainly on what's happening with the Wall Street occupation (the reasons behind it, etc.).

Ok Graeme, let's go back to the opening post.

You said:

In a speech today, Mr. Romney, leading candidate for the Republican leadership announced that God wants the US to rule the world. He proposes to dramatically increase the "defence" budget, and cut social assistance.

Canada, as titular leader of the NATO bombing, has almost finished its work in Libya, almost certainly having killed tens of thousands of civilians. (You can't bomb cities without doing that.)

Let's see, watch shall we talk about on Sunday? perhaps we should pick a nice hymn that won't offend anybody, and then --oh, what does it really mean to have no other God before Me? Is that what it really says if you look back at the original Spanish?

Your opening paragraph seems factual.  Thank you for bringing it to our attention.  Shades of  the old slogan of "Manifest Destiny".    Yes, it would be a good thing if the churches reminded the people that is not a Christian way of thinking - that it is the opposite of what is taught in much of the Bible, both old and new testaments.

Second paragraph - switches from American political thinking (by some Americans) to Canada's involvement in the NATO bombing.   I really don't see the direct connection - and it is something we already know - at least some of us already know. 

Third paragraph asks what we will talk about in church on Sunday - Thanksgiving Sunday.   And then makes some comments about what you think might be the topic. 

A nice hymn that won't offend?   And why shouldn't we pick a nice hymn for a celebration?   Why would we pick a hymn that wasn't 'nice'?    And why would we want to offend the people who gather to worship?    

No other Gods?   Yes, perhaps this might make a good sermon topic in which we could discuss what it means to put something ahead of God - like our Nation  "My country right or wrong"  "God bless America"   "God is on our side".   But I question whether Thanksgiving is the right time to do this.  

Then  your final sentence summing up your thinking and showing your sarcasm (if we haven't caught on already):   the original Spanish?   I've never sat in church and heard mention of 'what this word means in the original Spanish'.   I have hear in church, and read in books, (right now I'm reading Marcus Borg's "Speaking Christian") about the importance of going back to the original languages to discover the meaning of certain words rather than the meaning given in common useage.  I've discovered that both 'Belief" and "Faith" had much different meanings when they were used in the Bible than many people attribute to them now.  For many of us it is important to understand what our Bible's are really telling us.

So, is it surprising that I found your original post an attack on the way we celebrate Thanksgiving?  I don't know how else I could have understood your closing paragraph.

Yes, I think that perhaps Romney's remarks should be mentioned in the pulpit - I'm preaching twice this month.  Perhaps I will find an opportunity to address them.  Thanks for the suggestion of "no other gods".   Or perhaps our minister might address them in her weekly letter to the congregation.  Or in a study group.  

The same for Canada's involvement in NATO bombing.  Our churches should have an opinion.  But it seems to me that they do.

But there is a time and a place for everything.  I just don't think that it is necessary to hash out these subjects on a day that has been set aside for showing gratitude for what is right and good in our lives.  

I don't understand why your passion for justice leads you to attack the religion that also has a passion for justice, and the church that is working for that justice. 

Now that Thanksgiving Sunday is past, and a new day is breaking (actually it broke several hours ago - where is everybody?), perhaps we can get back to Graeme's first two paragraphs (though I don't think I'm the only one who thought from his title and his closing paragraph that he wanted to discuss the Thanksgiving service). 

I've been thinking that Romney's remarks about God's will for the US should not go unchallenged, and perhaps the pulpit is the place to address them.   So what approach would I take if I were the minister of a congregation.   

Graeme has given me some ideas.  Perhaps I would indeed start with the commandment from Exodus  "I am the Lord, your God, and you shall not have any other gods before me."  and I would explore the ways we might put 'King and Country' (or President or Prime Minister) ahead of our relationship with the Holy.  

Then I would move on to the pre-exile prophets - I'm sure that with a bit of search I could find the exact passages.   Their message for the leaders of Israel and Judea seemed to be 'Do not put your faith in your Kings and Rulers.  Do not put your faith in Trade and Commerce and in the economic and political strength of the country.  Do not put your faith in the army and military force.  Or in the high priests.  Do not worship the palace or the temple.'   The prophets also pointed out the evils in the society that increased military spending while neglecting the widows and the orphans (the poorest of the poor).    And oh yes, I might get back to looking at the original meanings of the words 'justice', 'mercy' and 'charity' that are quite different than the common meanings given to them today.   And I would ask if we can find any parallels between pre-exile Israel and Judea and in North America today with increased military spending and cutting services to the poor.  

Then I would move on to Jesus - living in an occupied land that was being taxed to starvation levels by the Roman rulers, and the collaborating religious rulers of the time.  Jesus, moving around from village to village, doing good - sharing their lives - challenging the status quo, standing up to the leaders, showing a better way to live in relationship with God and with each other - not by hate, not by a quasi-military uprising, just by doing what was right - and eventually attracting enough followers and making enough difference that the Roman officials saw him as a danger to their way of life and they had him executed.  

And I would ask, what is the message for us in the face of Romney's statement?

Perhaps it is too big a topic for one Sunday.  Perhaps it would take a series of at least three or four.  And/or a follow-up discussion group with a capable lay leader. 

And what would I choose for hymns, scripture readings, prayers.   Well, I would have to search through Voices United and More Voices - but I would think that at least two out of four (especially the closing hymn) should be up-lifting and full of hope.    Two that spring to my mind right now are  "I See a New Heaven" and "We Shall Go Out in Hope of Resurrection".   And perhaps the old prayer-hymn "If I have Wounded Any Soul Today" - I especially think the line "forgive the hidden sins I do not see' - might be used early in the service.  

Prayers for forgiveness.  Prayers of concern. 

And scripture readings.   From Exodus, the prophets, the gospels   I would have a lot to choose from.

And I still am thankful for all the blessings that have been given to me - even if my son is on the other side of the world and my daughter sat down to a plate of turkey breast (she prefers dark meat) and mashed potatoes on a strict low residue diet. 

Hi seeler,

I agree that the comments should not go unchallenged.

I am not certain that many in WonderCafe have a legitimate ground to challenge the doctrine of manifest destiny from.  Certainly we can critique the doctrine.  How will a Canadian critique of that doctrine impact upon the ears of the American believer in that doctrine?  As Canadians we are threatened by the doctrine in that we are ultimately to be absorbed by the United States of America if the doctrine is ever actually realized, as are Mexicans.  Our opposition to such doctrine is what the believer would expect from any enemy.

Realistically, any American who challenges the doctrine will be viewed as traitor by those who hold to the doctrine.  Since Romney is a Republican and the polarization of the electorate is more or less accomplished within the United States I expect that it would not be difficult for believers in manifest destiny to resort to the hostile rhetoric employed by the Bush Administration following 9/11 and tug on the heartstrings of patriotism.

How could we cut those particular heart strings and prevent their being pulled by anyone ever?  Can I as a Canadian approach those strings with a sharp cutting blade and not be seen as a threat which gets those strings pulled in some who would otherwise not be pulled?

At present the notion of manifest destiny may simply be a resurgence of Jingoism and perceived attacks or slights against America will only fan that particular fire.  If the Occupy crowd can be as influential among the voting public as the Tea-Party is claimed to have been then the defeat of Romney at the polls might go a long way to dousing that fire.  If not then I suspect words won't be enough.

Just as images of brutality eventually moved Americans unconcerned with racial inequality to act.  It might take similar images of blood running red in the streets to waken Americans unmoved by the political rhetoric of Republican primaries.  And if such is the case then whomever it is who will have to get their skull busted open has to be someone who isn't violent themselves.

Sounds very reasonable to my ears.  Of course, I am not inclined towards the extreme patriotism of equating politicians or geographies with God.

Grace and peace to you.

John

There is a difficulty here which seems not to have been grasped.

A church which "has a passion for social justice" doesn't just  make up packages for the starving. that's like sending sunburn lotion to Hiroshima in 1945.

But how can they go further? Their congregations have very little sense of what is going on in the world, or of what it means. If you confine your action to the occasional sermon, most people are just going to think you're one of them there radicals and ignore you.

It is a long job to convince people of something they have been conditioned not to believe. Even though the President how has the power to assassinate or imprison American citizens without charge, to search without warrant and to investigate people for their beliefs,  most Americans still believe the US is an exemplary land of freedom and justice.

The concept of Manifest Destiny was born with the american revolution - though it was only later the term became used. It was the justification for the invasion of Canada in 1812, and for threats right up to 1900. The US still does not recognize Canada's northern borders. Manifest destiny was the root  ot the destruction of native tribes, the war with mexico, the annexation of Hawaii, the invasion of The Phlllippines, of so many Latin American countries.  It is now the basis for world conquest as expressed by The Project for the New American Century. It is the basis of all American foreign policy, and always has been. Romney is no simple jingoist. He has updated Manifest Destiny to what it always was - domination of the world by the US is a part of God's plan. Americans are God's chosen people.

You're not going to get anywhere by mentioning that in a couple of sermons, not even with reference to various scriptures.

What's needed is an extensive examination of world events - so they can be understood and seen in the light of Christian teaching. this is not going to happen simply in the context of a service. When I was a child, the church was the almost daily focus of our social lives. It has to make some attempt in that direction. Otherwise, the services happen in a vacuum. The church needs to make itself a place for learning about the real world, and the Christian role in it.

We had no trouble making room in the service for 9/11. That was easy because the congregation was already atttuned to it. Now, there's a whole lot more they have to be attuned to.

Here, in New Brunswick, an extremely wealthy man who also owns most of the news media recently announced that he was a member of the government - without any need to get elected. He then announced he has selected a group of his buddies (also unelected) to plan the provincial economy. The premier not only accepted this intrusion into a government function, but made it official by paying the committee with our dollars and by giving it official access to the Minister of Finance.

Their first budget is about to come down. Leaks suggest it has service cuts for the poor. But no tax increases for the rich or for corporations.

Try that in a Christian context.

I note, though, that there is a church nearby named after his father who was quite similar.. I'm sure the presence of Jesus is felt there.
 

Clergy have been joining the Occupy Wall St. protestors. A Jewish congregation held a Yom Kippur service with them. A Catholic magazine has referred to the demonstration with enthusiasm as a service and as a manifestation of faith.

There is no word on how many UC clergy are there. Certainly, there are none from Moncton.

Progressive shifts in our society often happen in direct opposition to some of the rules that religion itself has imposed for so many years.

Lately it's been society that changed the church(not the other way around) to welcome gays, it took society to show that divorced women/men could remarry, it was society that taught the church that single mothers need not be shunned or hidden, etc......

Anyone wanting to change the world for the better would do better to get out of the confines of the church and the rules and dogma that are perpetuated there . To me, just preaching on a Sunday really does not tap into the discontent that is brewing and when the churches do preach about what's happening it's usually because they have read it in the newspapers or heard it on a slick radio show, rather than from having their own ear to the ground. It's probably why Jesus was so amazing, he could relate to necessary changes that needed to take place because he lived amongst the people that needed the world to change the most. And no shrinking violet he certainly could hold his own with those in powerful positions.

All in the name of LOVE.

Hi graeme,

Given that there are no congregations of The United Church of Canada operating in the immediate vicinity of Wall Street I am not surprised.  Nor am I convinced that The United Church of Canada needs to be represented in the occupation of Wall Street.

I can imagine that among those occupying our support would be welcome.

I can imagine that those opposed to the occupation would find our presence to be meddlesome at best.

What would be accomplished by having every clergy person from Moncton smack-dab in the middle of the occupation?

Grace and peace to you.

John

I'd like to see one Christian among our clergy.

I'm well aware of your views and can guess why you hold them. It's always been obvious. You should apply for the job (oops - hear a call) for The Irving Chapel.

And this is why I have not attended my church in quite some time.  I still support it financially - whatever did we do before PAR - but that is currently undergoing serious reconsideration as to whether my limited resources would be better spent elsewhere.

I relate to Graeme's frustration.  I am not fortunate to live in a community where my church acts outwardly like Seeler's.  What attracted me to it originally I came to discover were active individuals.  I made a mistake that those individuals represented the organization as a whole and my experience should have prevented making that mistake, but hope springs eternal in my soul.

As time went on I found I could no longer sit and listen to the words of the past lamenting about the abuse of power, the plight of the needy and yet no connection made to my present; the actions of this nation and my community.  Instead I perceived, perhaps incorrectly but it is mine to own, an appeasement, a salving of the conscience of the community leaders sitting in the pews.  Oh there is lots of love, tea and sympathy but a total unwillingness to move beyond the tea pot.

And I have been thinking about this thread, the Occupy Wall Street, war, famine, all those things that I perceive as wrong and maybe I am just a member of the 1% - not the rich 1% obviously, but the 1% who thinks this world has to change for the better or it is going to get a lot worse.  Maybe the other 99% of the world are really happy with the way things are; there is no need to work for change.  So who am I to argue;

to expect what the majority does not want.

LB

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Time is swift, it races by; Opportunities are born and die... 

     A. A Milne

So you would like to see one Christian among our clergy!   Graeme, just who do you think you are that you can declare who is Christian and who isn't.  Open your eyes.  I see many many Christians among our clergy.  Perhaps they don't match your definition of a Christian but then why should they?  

By the way, I find it impossible to have a conversation with you, so I don't see any point in continuing.

Graeme makes me uncomfortable sometimes too, but I have to say it often forces me to ponder on things I've kept on the back burner or neglected.

Graeme is a curmudgeon and personally I appreciate him for it ...

What is a Curmudgeon anyway?

      A curmudgeon's reputation for malevolence is undeserved. They're neither warped nor evil at heart. They don't hate mankind, just mankind's absurdities. They're just as sensitive and soft-hearted as the next guy, but they hide their vulnerability beneath a crust of misanthropy. They ease the pain by turning hurt into humor.  . . . . .   They attack maudlinism because it devalues genuine sentiment.   . . . . .   Nature, having failed to equip them with a servicable denial mechanism, has endowed them with astute perception and sly wit.

      Curmudgeons are mockers and debunkers whose bitterness is a symptom rather than a disease. They can't compromise their standards and can't manage the suspension of disbelief necessary for feigned cheerfulness. Their awareness is a curse.

      Perhaps curmudgeons have gotten a bad rap in the same way that the messenger is blamed for the message: They have the temerity to comment on the human condition without apology. They not only refuse to applaud mediocrity, they howl it down with morose glee. Their versions of the truth unsettle us, and we hold it against them, even though they soften it with humor.
     Jon Winokur

Perhaps it takes one to see one (I would insert a smiley here but that would be too ironic).

Often when I read the threads in Politics, and Religion and Faith - the same thought crosses my mind.

It was something I heard many times from my husband, often in response to family dilemmas, "Don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions to consider."

With the availability of so much media online we are bombarded with the many real problems the world currently faces.

There is no shortage of information - although polarization is  a constant concern.......

But, where is the emphasis on solutions?

Take the Occupy Wall St movement.

Here the widening income levels in society are a clear indication of the "problem".

So, I invite you to imagine you are President Obama. What concrete proposals would you try and implement? Then when you come up with proposals have you the political might to make them happen. (remember health care?)

If, like many who are part of the Occupy Wall St movement, you've come to believe that the present political situation is no longer democratic, because of vested corporation interests, where do you go from demonstrating?

My first thought was to concentrate on income distribution through taxation. Then I remembered that there is an industry in tax avoidance - no sooner is one loophole closed another presents itself..........  

In fact, it's so difficult to come up with workable solutions we are left in the position of kids - with no other power than to say, "it's not fair."

(Sigh) Remember the days when money was a means of exchange and not a God?

If there is a solution/s it will be related to ethics - other than that??????

This may be going way off topic which may or may not be a bad thing....

Ethics play a role but they are predicated on the fact that a certain percentage of the human race lacks ethics.  However there are concrete solutions at hand.

As has been pointed out in a number of articles, cartoons and placards, more Occupiers of Wall Street have been arrested than the Brokers of Wall Street who through not just incompetence but negligence lost the savings of millions of people. 

So one solution, make Corporate executives as culpable for gross negligence as the guy on the factory floor or the peaceful protester on the street. 

More solutions.....

Credit card companies are held to the same banking laws as, well, banks.  This includes interest rates, collection practices and lending practices.

If a Corporation can't afford to raise the wages of their workers, then they can't afford to give their executives bonuses.

If governments slash public funded services, then politicians have to refuse giving themselves pay hikes, benefit increases, perks like free air fare, housing allowances and in Canada gold embossed personal business cards.

Every voter who supports "NO TAXES" must immediately cease using any publicly funded services - this would include highways, public transportation, pensions, etc. ad nauseam.

Every politician, corporate executive and voter who wish to deny "special" rights to living persons must apply that same standard to political parties, corporations and their own pet organization.

I can go on.....

LB

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Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing.

      Ralph Waldo Emerson
 

*sigh* Pilgrims - I wish I remembered the days when money was not a god. Sadly, those days were gone before I was born.

Graeme - I am still awaiting an answer as to what you did with your Sunday School kids around social justice? I am looking for ideas for my own class.

LB,

I like your suggestions.

But they have to be implemented to make them solutions.

If you were in President Obama's shoes (not your red boots) do you think this is possible?

I tend to think, since the rise of corporations and their power, this may no longer be possible.

Has democracy run it's course?

Perhaps a form of socialism is the answer - whereby those that lack ethics are forced to comply in matters of "the common good"?

(That said, past examples would need some improvements - particularly when it comes to free speech and avoidance of corruption.)

Thanks and appreciation on two counts LB.
.
Delighted by curmudgeon note. Seems our friend graeme might well fill shoes left empty by fellas like Jeremiah. Easy to make nice with dead prophets. I suspect a proof text could be referenced.
.
Also resonate with the indications of other ways to structure our economic relations, and such. Again a text could be called up; maybe something about mountains and valleys from Isaiah.

sorry, somegal, I have been much distracted lately.

It's tricky to deal with social justice with children. After all, the cause of social injustice is powerful people in our society. Canadians are poor because the rich are taking in huge profits. Haitians have been kept poor and uneducated for over a century to make them cheap labour. Ditto for Guatemala.

As you can tell from the responses here, you're not likely to get much support on that from the minister.

I could do it because I had the backing of the minister - and I generally shied away from mentioning any nation as a cause. (After all, there are plenty of them to share the blame.)

Perhaps it's safer to talk with the missions rep in your church to pick out samples of helping others. Nobody can complain if you're taking examples from our own missions.

You can also use examples from history. That's usually safe. Then coax them to think of any such things that are going on today. Let them get it. Stimulate them to think 0 don't try to plant ideas. Your role is make them ask the question - what is the role of a Christian.

Seeley - who are y ou to point too people and tell us who is Christian? And if, as you show, you have the right to do so, why don't I?

Muskoka - I am not a curmudgeon. I am cute and affable.

But firm.

Oh my, if I was President there probably would be a revolution and I would support it - I'm really a totalitarian at heart ;-)

Yes I think it is possible.  The laws are already in place.  All that is required is will.

Corporations are granted power by the people the same way governments are.  Power granted can be removed.  Want to make a corporation stand up and take notice, stop buying their product.  Again, all that is required is will.

Make no mistake, people can effect change.  Here is just one example:  In today's Globe and Mail (our national business newspaper) in the business section read by our Bay Street Brokers is this little shift in psyche

But there are large players in the financial industry itself who are paying attention. From Laurence Fink, the head of the world’s largest asset management company, to some senior Canadian bankers, there’s a realization that the protesters are not just a bunch of flakes. There is something deeper feeding their anger, and it could have legs.

[...]

The protests are a concern for Canadian banks. For some, they have to worry about the implications for their growing businesses in the United States. Toronto-Dominion Bank has grown into one of the biggest banks in the eastern U.S., and Bank of Montreal recently bought a big Midwestern lender.

In the U.S., “people are really angry with their banks and they don’t discriminate,” said a senior Canadian bank official. “This is how things start ...We’re definitely paying attention.”

Whatever their validity, banks should pay heed to Occupy Wall Street protests

God help us if it has.

Which is not the same as a lack of democratic process.  Socialism is an operating system just as capitalism is a an operating system, pure and simple.  A democracy can be either socialist or capitalist and the choice is made by the populace.  A dictatorship can be either socialist or capitalist and the choice is in the hands of the select. 

Democracy is always the better option for the citizen because regardless of appearances the power is always in the hands of the people.  Whether that power is exercised is a matter of will.

LB

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To waste, to destroy, our natural resources, to skin and exhaust the land instead of using it so as to increase its usefulness, will result in undermining in the days of our children the very prosperity which we ought by right to hand down to them amplified...

    Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President & Republican

Occupy Wall Street is not a protest. It's not asking the government to change something. It is another expression of loss of faith in the say our whole democratic system works.

The Occupy movement wants a real democracy. that's not a protest. that's a revolution.

[quote=Pilgrims Progress]

It was something I heard many times from my husband, often in response to family dilemmas, "Don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions to consider."

With the availability of so much media online we are bombarded with the many real problems the world currently faces.

There is no shortage of information - although polarization is  a constant concern.......

But, where is the emphasis on solutions?

Pilgrim, I like this.  I like the idea of looking for solutions - of talking things over and looking for solutions - of hoping for solutions - of believing that solutions are a possibility.  I hear so much that is wrong with the world.  To tell the truth, I feel overwhelmed by the overload.  To me its not a problem of not knowing about what is happening - its a matter of knowing too much.  I feel like going into mourning - of wearing sackcloth and ashes - or retreating into madness like some of the prophets of old seemed to do.  

I need to hear some solutions.  I need to have some hope for the world that my children and my grandchildren inhabit. 

But Graeme seems to delight in reminding us over and over of the terrible things in the world and somehow seems to be accusing our churches (and therefore us - because we make up the church) of ignoring the problem, going our merry way, and doing nothing.  He suggests in his opening post that on Thanksgiving Sunday our ministers should be preaching about a statement by an American politician and about Canada's involvement in bombing civilians - and makings fun of the music that he assumes will be chosen for that Sunday.    I tell him that I don't think Thanksgiving Sunday is when this should happen but suggest topics for a sermon, or series of sermons, and a discussion group around these subjects.   He tells me that wouldn't do any good.   Well, if it won't do any good, why bother?    Why bother doing anything?  We are doomed if we do; we are doomed if we don't.  We might as well hide in a cave somewhere. 

Then he says that he would like to meet a Christian minister.   I don't know if my experience is so much different from everybody else, or if I've been incredibly lucky to know the ministers who are also passionate about social justice issues - locally, nationally, internationally.   But I will presume that a minister of a Christian church is a Christian (perhaps imperfect; most likely imperfect; but nevertheless a Christian) unless I see or hear evidence to the contrary.  

Graeme - those are things I am already doing with my kids. I ask them lots of open-ended questions and try to encourage them to come up with their own ideas and solutions for some of the issues in the world. I was hoping for some more concrete ideas.

Graeme,

I'm not as idealistic as I once was - and what you say here has the ring of truth, IMO.

Call me an old cynic but it wasn't that long ago that there were people protesting in Egypt for a democracy................

CAIRO (Reuters) - Egypt's Coptic Christians turned their fury against the army on Monday after at least 25 people were killed when troops broke up a protest, deepening public doubts about the military's ability to steer the country peacefully toward democracy.

In the worst violence since Hosni Mubarak was ousted, armored vehicles sped into a crowd late on Sunday to crack down on a protest near Cairo's state television.

Online videos showed mangled bodies. Activists said some people were crushed by wheels.

Tension between Muslims and minority Coptic Christians has simmered for years but has worsened since the anti-Mubarak revolt, which gave freer rein to Salafist and other strict Islamist groups that the former president had repressed.

But much of the anger from Sunday's violence targeted the army, accused by politicians from all sides of aggravating social tensions through a clumsy response to street violence and not giving a clear timetable for handing power to civilians.

Stop buying their product???

LB, you gotta get out of that comfortable swamp of yours - and visit a few mega-stores.

It's not just the richest 1% that are building Mc Mansions and buying all the latest geek products.........

We all contribute to galloping consumerism - our twice yearly council clean-up days make my suburb look like a war zone minus the bodies......... Junk piled on junk........

The horse has bolted - too late to close that particular stable door.

somegal - every youth group I've known about or been associated with in the UCC has worked with the youth on social issue - whether discussing the right to water, protection of the environment, women's issues, alternatives to war, torture and human rights - or focusing on local issues like poverty, hunger and homelessness in our own communities.  They've also done local projects like getting involved in "12 hours for the homeless" or "Habitant for Humanity".  They visit the community kitchen, help prepare and serve meals, and chat with the people who line up for a bowl of soup - and they prepare and pass out boxes at the food bank, seeing perhaps for the first time some of the faces of the poor in our city - and they go back to their youth group to talk about these issues and question 'why are these people poor in a country with so much wealth?'   They come with the popular idea that people live the life of Riley on social assistance and they find out how much a monthly social assistance payment it and how much a single room with a shared bath down the hall costs (3/4 of the monthly allowance for a single person) and they see why the poorest of the poor have to choose between a room to call their own and eat at the kitchen, or a bed at the shelter and a bit of money for food - and the fact that there is very little for 'extras' whichever way they turn.   Perhaps your youth group could look at something like this.

Or visit a shopping mall or supermarket - read the labels - find out where various items are manufactured - then do some research into farm and factory conditions in those countries, who owns the businesses and makes the profit, and what is the impact on peoples lives, the environment and the global economy - including the people here who lose their jobs as manufacturing moves to third world countries with fewer laws to protect the workers or the environment.  Why is it cheaper to buy dill pickles packed in India than it is to buy dill pickles made from the cucumbers that grow abundantly just a few miles outside our cities here?

For our older youth - this church is twinned with a seminary in Cuba and we do an exchange.  Our people visit Cuba for a three month period - not the resorts but the Cuban people.  They live in residence or are billeted out in villages where they work along side the people in farm coops and small coop businesses.  In exchange Cuban students come to Canada for three months of study and work in our church and community.  I haven't taken part - or looked into it too closely - but those who have taken part show lots of enthusiasm.   Another church I was involved with did an exchange with Guatamala (again I was not involved in the exchange but heard reports)  - I think this one was mainly university age or adults.

In every case the youth work was supported by the minister - either actively involved or simply showing an interest and giving encouragement to the youth leaders.

I hope that your find these ideas helpful.  I'm sure you have lots of your own.