I don't think anything has challanged my faith (my trust) recently.  If anything the challanges that we have faced with my daughter's cancer have strengthened my faith. 

If your question had been 'what challanges do your face in following your religion?'  my answer would be different.  I find that I am challanged when confronted with extremist views whether from atheists or from fundies - people who come across as thinking that they know it all or have all the answers and that anyone who disagrees with them or sees things differently must be wrong.  I sometimes find myself getting angry or frightened by these views and that makes it officult for me to converse with them.

 Interesting distinction, Seeler.  

I wonder how you can look at it that way...  And I am very sorry to hear of your daughter's illness.  I am astounded that it did not shake your faith, to be honest.  

And how can your faith be challenged by the larger institution of the faith, but not be shaken by it?  

Perhaps that says more about my lack of faith than anything else, but when I consider the intolerance, for example, in the evangelical congregation I have sometimes attended (mostly because the actual biblical teaching there was meaningful to me), I really have to ask myself how I can associate with a faith that fuels so much hatred...

As I've posted elsewhere, my faith is well, not really existent at the moment, but that resulted from both the challenges in life AND the institution of the religion I associate with.  

I think it was partly the support we received throughtout our daughter's illness that kept me from feeling alone or abandoned.  Our home church, our friends and neighbours, the extended family, and the people on the WonderCafe all came through with prayers, best wishes, and practical support - meals, prayer shawls, child care and transportation, fund raisers.  People of faith, including our new minister, listened to me cry.  The medical staff were kind, supportive, and competent.  We were surrounded by love (an Love), and connected to something greater than all its parts (to God).

As to the second half of your question - I find that when I hear somebody claiming that (the Bible, the Holy Spirit, God, their pastor, or whatever) says such and such a thing and there are no other ways of interpreting it or looking at it in context of its time, and especially if I find that statement to be hateful or hurtful, I feel threatened.  It seems to me that God is so much greater than our understanding will ever be that any claim to know "the Truth" is setting up false gods.  And then I find it a challange to talk with these people.  I guess I don't think anybody or any institution has all 'the Truth".  We are all on a journey.  We are all seekers.

My faith is challenged because I don't see God helping when He/She is asked to.  If God really wants us to see Him/Her as a parent then I am not expecting the "Bank of Dad" here.  (Do you all remember the Bank of Dad?  It was awesome.)   I am talking about things like "God please let my Dad recover"  or "God please help me find a husband/wife" or "God please help so and so their husband is beating them"

It seems God is not listening or on a holiday like that one movie I saw.

Chrisitans who act like there is no God, or no Christ challenge my faith.

Often those who reinforce my faith against Christian hatred, are atheist and others who claim there is no God, but act consistently as there is a God.

I think that what challenges my faith has changed over the years.

At first, it was learning about science and trying to reconcile that way of knowing with my Christianity.

Then it was learning about other faiths, being inspired by some of what I learned, and trying to reconcile that with my Christianity.

Now that I'm no longer "Christian", it is engaging with my former faith that does much of the challenging, leading me to examine where I am now and question why I left and why I don't go back. WC is a big part of that, as is attending UCCan services and reading contemporary writings on theology and religion (e.g. Borg).

Of course, life itself raises frequent challenges. Losing a close friend this year, for instance, inevitably raised questions about mortality.

I deal with the challenges by reflecting on them and how they fit within my personal framework. Sometimes they lead to changes in my faith, sometimes my faith guides me in answering the questions raised by each challenge.

Mendalla

Nicely said Mendalla, I pressed the "+" sign as a 'vote up' for that.

What challenges my faith sometimes is going to work everyday, doing the same old thing and finding myself actually wishing my life away, i.e. "wish it was Friday", "can't wait till my holidays", ... 

If I don't keep on top of my 'back of the mind' mediation, I stray away from the concept of everyday, every moment being something spiritual. The days drag on with little to inspire me to enjoy "the moment", which is, so they say, where the true spirit of our lives exist. Everything else is either in the past or hasn't happened yet, only in "the moment" can our true selves express itself. So they say.

I am challenged by my inadequate understanding of unique manifestations of the palpable presence of God.  In my first year of seminary, I was invited to a conversation and prayer session with a Mrs. Good.  About 15 young macho men, including the past captain of the Harvard wrestling team, invited me to see what it's like to sense God powerfully in the presence of this frail 90-year-old lady.  When I arrived at her home, I immediately realized what they meant.  She berated us for being willing to stay up till 2 AM with our girlfriends, but not being willing to bask in Christ's presence for the same period of time.  We all smirked, and yet, were profoundly convicted by this woman whose whole life was that of a prayer warrior. 

In the late 1940s, she had attended a Methodist church and heard an unknown preacher who did no impress her.  On her way home, she sensed God asking her what she thought of him and she replied, "Not very much!"  Then she sensed God's response, "Well, that's too bad because I'm giong to use that young man like no other in the next generations.  And I want you to devote your life to long prayer sessions in behalf of his ministry."  Mrs. Good was both disappointed and intrigued, but she complied.  A few months later, Billy Graham's crusade in LA suddenly attracted 100,000+ people and some of his celebrity converts were newspaper headlines.  He went from obsurity to sensation overnight.  Billy Graham eventually discovered the power of her intercession for himself and asked her to be present on the platform of his meetings.  I would scoff at her role had I not actually met her and sensed the unique presence of the Holy Spirit in her llfe, together with several other young seminarians.  He has now spoken to more people face to face than anyone in history.  Recently, a very bright, retired UCC pastor in British Colunbia started driving down for my services.  He told me he made his decision for Christ in a Billy Graham crusade in Winnipeg which I just happened to have attended every night. 

Since my encounter with Mrs. Good, I have met a few other saints like this woman who could convert others simply by radiating Christ's Spirit to those  nearby.  I wish I could be like them, but, for starters, my prayer life is not as disciplined as theirs.  Yet every once in a while, I get on a mysterious roll: one answer to prayer after another and miraculous experiences of divine guidance.  Then these glorious experiences are abruptly suspended, and I don't understand why.  Had my attitude subtly changed in a faith-killing way?  Perhaps.  There are hidden spiritual laws that govern this that I do not adequately grasp.   

In the past year, young children (age 6-7) in my church have had  profoundly spiritual waking visions.  Their shocked parents have asked me how they should react to this, and I have responded by saying that a similar experience I had on a tricycle at age 6 changed my life.  But I want to give these children the best possible advice and encouragement about their spirituial gifts, and I worry that I might be a better mentor for these families than I am.   

P.S. Agnieszka, next week I hope to begin the thread I promised dealing with the questions you wanted me to address.

Reading the news and history.  

I have a way of dealing with it, if you are interested.   I group the bad news into two categories: those caused by man and those by nature.

The bad stuff caused by man could be attributed to Satanic influences, original sin.

The natural disasters are more challenging.   Let me just throw some ideas.

If the planet Earth never had earthquakes or volcanoes then is would be geologically inert, like the Moon.   Scientists think the atmosphere arose from volcanic emissions.  If the Earth was like the Moon, there would be no earthquakes but there would be no atmosphere and no life.

Next, disease.  Some of this is caused by genetic mutations.   But if we had no genetic mutations, we would have no evolution and we would not exist.  Evolution produces far more losers than winners.

Other diseases are caused by viruses, bacteria, parasites--they too are part of evolution.   We can't have ourselves, fully evolved, in isolation without any other life on the planet.

I don't know if this reassures you or not.  But if God created the Universe and laws of physics, then everything follows from that....

My faith is experiential. Nothing challenges or changes my faith.

The interpretations of my faith, however, are continuosly challenged and change all the time.

In other words, my faith is absolute, but the interpretations of my faith are continuously created, re-created or updated, and are a work in progress.

This, to me, is what "progressive Christianity" means: the interpretations of experiential faith as a process of continuous, creative progression. "Process theology" means much the same.

Yes, it's hard not to!  They are right and you are wrong!  And then the point to the verse and tahdah, you are screwed.  One has to have tremendous patience and perseverance to deal with that type of thing.

Amen!

maybe it just takes time.  a lot of time sometimes.  maybe God is slow.  or maybe God isn't omnipotent at all.  maybe God is kinda powerless against human will and human action?

Yes! 'By their friuts you shall know them'

My beliefs have changed...never my 'faith'

What challenges my faith the most?

Me.

God's doing great - me, not so good.

Jesus might have been an Aussie, he explained what was required simply and succcintly.

Love God, love yourself, love your neighbour.

There are those wonderful moments when I get it right - and I feel such a sense of unity and awe.

Then there are those ego moments when I'm filled with feelings of fear and crippling inadequacy. Not feeling capable I stand back - leaving it to others.

Sometimes my fear expresses itself in anger and irritation. ( ie. the problem is you - not me.) 

My prayer is always the same - may God help this pilgrim to progress.

Agnieska ( and Serena)

quote:

"maybe God is kinda powerless against human will and human action?"

Sometimes I think about all the people the world over who are praying for certain needs to be met. If everyone's prayers were answered as if by magic it would be a world of no order or chaos.  We couldn't  survive in it. (  I think the bishop of Oxford in Motherof five's videos spoke to this...?)   Some of those prayers may border too strongly on individual, frivolous, or non essential  materialistic  requests . I leave you to your own imagination!  If all of our prayers for healing others were answered there would be no death or very little. It would be a very different kind of world.

Joke: I live in a highrise. I can imagine old Mrs. Jones asking God to please get rid of her noisy neighbors. Mary, a married woman, has a crush on John. Dear God....please make John move away . Everyone prays for and gets a stretch limousine with a chauffeur .....!!!!......  Do you follow me?

Bishop of Oxford and Dawkins discussing miracles - 4 th. video motheroffive. Not the same but similiar re answers to prayers.

http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/religion-and-faith/discussing-faith-...

 I think we are talking about people's genuine needs, Stardust.  And presumably God can tell and knows the difference between "God, please give me a limousine" and "God, I need to feed my kids somehow", right?

There are way way too many basic needs not being met the world over... And there are way too many emotional need not being met the world over...  Food, shelter, healing from disease.  Friendship, emotional strength, comfort, love.  Where is God?

God weeps.

Arminius,

is it because God can't do anything about it?

Yes.

 Why is that?

Because God is omniscient, but not omnipotent.

And God weeps because we are the part of God that is potent, but we are not aware of our creative and godly potential, and therefore do not exercise it.

And God weeps because IT can't make us aware that we are IT.

IT is solidly linked with us, but we have severed the connection, and it is up to us to re-establish the connection.

 Sad.  How have we severed the connection and how to re-establish the connection?

We believe ourselves to be separate from everyone and everything; the illusion of separateness is the worst of our many illusions. We can re-connect by immersing ourselves in pure being, and experience the unity of being and the totality of being—God.

When we let go of everything, and just experience, then we experience just being, pure being, being united with everyone and everything: the totality of being which is God.

 Okay.  And I've had those experiences, yes.  But.  We are talking moments.  And when my kids are trying me to no end, and it is my job to guide them and teach them, and need to garner strength from somewhere, memories of those moments are just not enough to fuel the patience that quick running out or the compassion for myself for not being patient.  I personally would really benefit from God actually backing me up in those times.

Well, I think IT does support us—once the unitive awareness glimpsed in the meditative state carries over into our everyday consciousness and guides our everyday actions.

The mundane is divine—if we let it.

 Hmmm.  I suppose my problem then is that I don't feel it, don't experience the mundane that way every day.  It is a breakthrough experience, not the typical experience.  I'm just not enlightened like you Arminius!

Agnieska

This is a difficult topic. I'm not sure I have the answers but I have some ideas.

quote:

"There are way way too many basic needs not being met the world over... And there are way too many emotional need not being met the world over...  Food, shelter, healing from disease.  Friendship, emotional strength, comfort, love.  Where is God?" (end of quote)

I'm thinking of an old story you've probably heard before:

A man asked  God : "Why don't you send someone to help the starving people in Africa?". God replied : " I did send someone. I sent YOU".

I guess I'd have to say the world governments or we the people are to blame since we have the rich nations and the poor or have - not nations with the rich robbing the poor countries. America takes advantage by building  factories in poor countries and using cheap ( or child)  labour , "Gap"  as one example. These big companies make enormous profits while the average employees  barely make enough income to feed and clothe themselves. We buy lots of chocolate and probably coffee  and bananas etc.  produced in part  by child  slave labour. Diamond mining in Africa  is another hellish field . The employees suffer, and yet we buy and sell their diamonds. Look at all the billions  the world over being spent on war and killing!  Governments and people have freewill ( maybe not 100%, another topic) to choose their actions. The world is totally out of whack we might say with the rich countries being mainly concerned with their own monetary gain or wealth.

I could go on and on  my point being that we the people have brains or as Arminius would say: " We, the people are God" depending on one's interpretation of God. Manna isn't going to fall out of the sky.

Regarding emotional needs I recall Mother Teresa saying that in America the people have everything except love. She said people are dying from loneliness in the big cities. We neglect to love and care for our neighbors .

 I challenge my faith the most: ie, to learn more

What causes me the most heartburn about Christianity?  Fools.  Those who do not bother to invest time in exploration.  

What do I get tired of:  People thinking that God is  some being that is going to grant a wish and using that as a reason to not have faith.  Dang it all folks, get over having your own personal fairy godmother....also get over thinking that your issue is the biggest issue in the world today.

What causes me consternation in organized religion:  The sense that people come to it like a take-out restaurant.  Please , I'd like this and that, hold the ___, and then don't tip.

Whhhhooooooooaaaa!  Harsh words there, Pinga!  Isn't God supposed to care for each and everyone of God's children?  Are some God's children's issues more important than others?  Is asking an omnipotent God to care for God's child made in God's image really making God into a fairy godmother??  Jusssssstasecond here.  This IS what people are taught.  Jesus says it himself: ask and you shall receive.  So, what are you pissed off about again?  That people take that little bit of instruction for what it actually says?

That's funny.  And yeah, I think it's about right.  As long as you don't forget you are in a church and don't expect it to be your therapist/entertainment center/sources of social life... but then again, many churches try to be all that, too.  It's kinda confusing, isn't it?  

I do tip, by the way.

Maybe.  Or maybe the Garth Brooks song is right?   I thank God for all the unanswered prayers.

Agnieszka, you have kids. Think about this, sure you need to look after their every need while they are young, but as they get older you have to let them make their mistakes. You have let them learn the difference between right and wrong. Simply telling them what is wrong doesn't always work. They have to experience it themselves and begin to walk their own path in life.

The relationship between the God of our planet, our "Father in Heaven" is no different. Humanity is getting older now, and our problems are man and woman made and therefore have man and woman solutions. This is part of walking the path towards being a mature and responsible Humanity.

The old adage that God doesn't exist because of all the suffering that continues in the world doesn't make sense in this context. Now of course we as parents would never let our children starve to death without intervening, but as stewards of this world and of our own destinies we are the ones responsible this starvation and suffering to begin with.

The suffering continues because we are about to learn one of the biggest lessons of all, and that is that Humanity can and needs to act and live as one Humanity.  Sharing the worlds resources is the only way we are to survive the future. Kind of like telling your children that they have to share their toys in the playground.

Jesus did indeed say "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you", but I'm pretty sure that He didn't mean that this could apply to any question or any door. I believe that the cry of humanity did indeed, however, reach the ears of the Lord during the end of the 2nd World War and that that invocation has resulted in the plans laid down for Christ to once again walk among us again.

But exactly when this reappearance will take place is again up to us. War could be over in a day, if we wanted it to. Once we make this decision then the future will open up in front of us like a new day. And even if we can't come to a total consensus on the eradication of war and starvation, which would be unlikely at first, at least if we have the majority of the world asking for peace then I believe it'll happen. (But this is just me, a half full kind of guy).

Agnieska

your quote to Pinga:

"Isn't God supposed to care for each and everyone of God's children?"

When I see groups of poor  children on TV  from the third world  (not the starving ones) it often strikes me that they seem more happy and grateful  than our children here although they have no toys, no luxuries, next to nothing. The sparkle in their eyes seems to say that God cares for them.

"Two men look out

through prison bars

One sees the mud

the other sees stars! "

 Ag, you asked, I answered.  Those are not harsh words.  Harsh words would tell you a lot more about what I think of that kind of interpretation and the damage that is causes.  

Hi Agnieszka:

This so-called "enlightenment" is no big deal, it is just unitive awareness. Some people—and I know some of them personally—sit on their duff and meditate a lot, and they meditate really well, but that's all they do. This is no exemplary lifestyle to me!

Once we are aware that we are an inseparable part of God, then we enact that awareness. Then we abide by the creative urge and the evolutionary impulse we feel, and actively and creatively co-create or co-evolve the world. Some people do that without being "enlightened," others who are "enlightened" don't do it. Mystical experience does not make one saintly—saintly action does! And one can engage in saintly action with or without mystical experience, with or without belonging to traditional religion.

In the developed world, the majority of people no longer believe in religion but in sciene. Science is where religion was a few centuries ago. Once science acknowledges that the universe which we analyze is a unitive whole in a state of synthesis, and that the cosmic synthesis and the cosmic analysis are opposite truths which complement each other, and that, of these two complementary truths, the synthetical TRUTH is the higher truth because IT represents the ultimate state of reality, then people's awareness, consciousness, conscience and thinking will change radically. The paradigm shift in human awareness and human thinking will, I believe, not be triggered by religion but by science.

Drat! I thought I could get away with it....soooo,,,,not exemplary, Ok. Does it get a C+ ?

(Flipping through Tao, files) I've just some justification here, somewhere...,.Ah! Here it is:

"Being is a lot more high-falutin' than doing, so sit back and relax, with a bit more of the gift of the grape"

There!

That's a direct quote from the Masterwork: The Tao da Chingerino!

I got more : "The Way to Do is to Drink" ....

Thou opinist:

Science is where religion was a few centuries ago.

---

A few centuries ago science was where religion was.

"It's Turtles, Turtles, Turtles, all the way down" and "When you boil it all down it's all water."

Which is true today. Both evolve. Bother are needed. They are not opposites, Not enemys.  

WWW.ALDAILY.COM

Opinion and Essey Column.

About 8 down. On Reason and Belief

I'd pay more'n a quarter to read your response to it...(Hey, that's a big deal, the way I live...)

What challenges my faith the most??

Personally, I'd have to say my own sloth...

Mike

Hate to admit it, but I have the same problem.

One cause   spending too much time here, rather than out there.

IT

Russ

Often it is other people or some other way of thinking that challenges my faith.

Alone and with God it's a bit more peaceful.(alas I was not called to be a monk)

Stepping out into the world, as we must, there's the world questioning and analyzing why, why, why. Bombarding me with a different "vision" of what it takes to be in this world and what is acceptable

It's challenging that I know God wants me to step out into that world and still somehow be separate from it.

Every so often I happen across someone that just "exudes" God's presence in their life. It's actually quite beautiful. It's not a confrontational "in your face" kind of presence either, it's a peaceful, non threatening presence and it's what I think Christ must have had that made people want to be near him.

I suppose I sometimes wish I could be seen this way myself, but yet I am concerned that I will be percieved as "holier than thou". The ones that I have been around that give off this "presence" often will offer no explanation or expect to be admired. It just "is" and when I have the good fortune to encounter someone like this, I am often humbled to want to have what they have.

My challenge is to carry over the time I spend alone with God, to a point that it becomes actually part of my being in this world, but not in a way that is threatening to others in such a way that they wouldn't want this experience also.

Okay, I'll bite.  A quarter of the 50 Mil you just got will do, no need to go over that.

Wells has not resolved the dilemma of faith and reason in a way that is at all complimentary to believers.  

He is saying that our contemporary notion of faith is not the ancient one, and no, it is not separate from reason but that is because our current concept of faith came after reason, as a reaction TO reason. 

Within the Greco-Roman stronghold of pure reason, says Wells, people had such a huge reaction to its strong presence and its power to overturn their cherished notions of reality that they ran for the cover of the emotional, supernatural, as-outside-reason-as-possible option… and that’s ladies and gentleman is FAITH!    Like Pastor Deacon Fred likes to say: “I don’t need no facts, I got Jaysus!’ A mockery and an oversimplification to say the least.

In essence, Wells has done little more than present faith as a reactionary thing, something people resort to out of desperation, fear and ignorance. 

Quote from Wells:

To put it another way, faith is the unassailable citadel to which religion withdrew after reason had overrun much of its original territory. (...)

In the face of such relentless, even terrifying, psychological pressure, it makes sense that our collective embrace of the supernatural, if it was to persist without dissolving completely, would have to tighten to the point of obsessiveness.10

Does this resolve the tension between faith and reason?  No, it is yet another rant against faith as something childish, something undesirable and a form of escapism from reality.

Here is Wells’ another simplistic reading on what faith is and what faith does. 

Faith’s quicksilver essence can never be rationally pinned down: the harder you press, the faster it squirts out from under your finger. Like the alien monster in countless movies, faith only gets stronger every time you shoot at it.

In short, Happy G, this ain’t no peace making truce between faith and reason.  This is yet another attack.  However well Wells thinks he explains the rise of monotheism – and it may very well all be true – his conclusions are rather simplistic and most certainly biased.

Hi Neo,

I'm been thinking about your post a bit.

So, which group of people was Jesus addressing with the message "ask and you shall receive"?  You seem to imply that the people Jesus was teaching were immature humans, not as mature as we are now.  Is that what you are saying?

Right now, I think it's seeing intelligent, conscious people acting unintelligently and automatically.

And how do I deal with the challenges?  By self-examination and getting input from that which is outside myself.  To keep on trying out different BS (and adoring those moments when I can get knocked out what I thought was the Truth and see that it was just me being comfortable :3)

Wow, I wonder what you might be referring to here.  Hmmm.

Let's see, if I was being attacked relentlessly because I asked some questions, I think that would cause some discomfort and perhaps even lead to self-defensive actions.

Well, that's what I'm doing too.  Trying out different BS.

I am referring to MYSELF and not you HERE AT ALL :3

 Okay.  I'm on the defensive.  Have taken a slugging.  Considering a WC vacation again.

Were humans immature during the days of Jesus? Yea, at least compared to today. The people in those days were mostly illiterate and simple farmers. (No offense Arminius). We've matured as a race quite a bit since then. We now have human rights, social services, humanitarian aid, etc. (at least in concept anyways, and mostly just in the 1st world, but these concepts are spreading around the world). This is why Jesus taught mostly using parables, it's what the people understood in those days. Today, I would think the message of salvation could take a much more sophisticated and meaningful approach.

So who was Jesus addressing with the message "ask and you shall receive"? Well, I'm not sure, but I'm guessing it would be both yesterday's and today's humanity. This is a universal message that applies across the board to everyone at any time. If we want anything in our lives then we have to ask for it. We have to visualize it and we have to want it. Nothing happens on it's own. Much depends, of course, on what one asks for as to whether or not they receive it. And things also don't always come in the time frame that we'd like them to...

 Sorry folks, I'm withdrawing from the Cafe.  I hope you can enjoy the conversation anyway.

 Ag, we all take breaks...or I should say, many of us do.

When my responses are too strong, or I feel too involved, I have withdrawn.  I have heard it called a wonderbreak.  Just a recognition that this site, and the various discussions can both feed a desire for conversation on items that are quite important to you, but, at the same time, have those conversations be stomped on.

The challenge is for me, when I take it personal.  When a topic that is close to my heart is stomped on is when I am most likely to do so.  

The other challenge for me is when I see that wondercafe is unable to live up to what I see as its potential due to what I perceive as people trying to yell instead of discuss.  .....or to make fun of topics that others take seriously.   Hard sometimes to see if someone is serious or is a troll...is mocking or just has a sense of humour.   Later, when I have come back to some of those threads I can see that I also didn't take the highroad....that is a sure sign to me that it is time for a break.

so, hopefully, it will just be a break until you find a balance that works for you.

Agnieszka - I hope that you are just taking a break and not leaving.  I know that the site can get to you.  Several times I've taken a break - sometimes telling people, sometimes quietly withdrawing - but I've usually continued to lurk.  

Sometimes just be reading and not actively posting I can see things that I would otherwise miss.  Other times I have decided that a particular poster is just not worth getting upset over.  But when the time is right, I come back.

I see you as an enthusiastic new member - new blood, new ideas, new questions - you are full of questions, you are seeking (did you know that my user name was intended to be 'seeker' but I made a typo and decided to keep it?).    And you don't take the easy answers - I admire that.

I do hope that you continue on the site.  Read a bit.  Get to know us - visit the 'social' thread when Religion gets too intense - and stick around.   After awhile the people on the Cafe can become a real community - and you will find you niche.