Mendalla: when you hear the Bible read, you are hearing 5,000 years or so of intense diversity. 

The Bible is an assortment of cultural attempts to exercise humanity in the face of infiinity… from tribalistic nomads to ritualistic states to colonialised and oppressed "glories that were"… it is riddled with insights into human nature, cultural history, psychology and access to the mystery than hangs over the edge of awe.

There's more that enough in the Bible to last a thousand human lifetimes. I felt in Scotland that Scottish history was almost as rich as the "Old Testament" in terms of human experience, but it has never nbeen recoded that way.

I find Universalists tend to take bits and pieces from all over the map (which is vast) without engaging with the contexts that give the bits and pieces meaning. I have tried to engage with the Holy Koran: I feel I dont have enough time left to me to fall in love with it, but I believe I could.  

The Vedantist texts are amazing and carry insights into our own "Western" ways of  "knowing" but, again, there is so very very much there.

I have found a lot, personally, in the Maori understandings I grew up with in New Zealand… 

The Bible doesn't cover all of the bases but who can? The tihng about the Bible is that it makes the culture of our time and place, as well as that of out ancestors, more intelligible. It can show us where we are making blunders because others have blundered in the same ways in the past; it points us towards more effective discernment because it makes clear to us that life is not a hopeless sea of meaninglessness… it helps us to grow. And that is good.

That is good. but not unique… good, but incomplete… enormously significant, but always a few stone-throws from "god".

It does us a lot of good, not just spiritual good, to wrestle with the complexities of the Bible with an open mind, a longing heart and a hopeful spirit. 

Taking it "literally" is, of course, tiotally missing the point… but don't humans miss the point with such persistence, vehemence and  frequency — so inevitatbly — as to seem deranged? And isn't there even something to be understood from that universal tendency towards derangement?

I mean, look at the World!

Indeed. That's why it is still one of my sources and still read it. The mix of myth, history, poetry, philosophy, and other forms is one of its greatest assets.

I won't dispute this totally. Part of my thinking is that I don't think any one tradition shows or knows the whole picture. Seeing different perspectives and approaches to the problems of existence illuminates them in new and sometimes radically different ways.

While the Bible is diverse, all of it is rooted deeply in the evolution of the Hebrew culture so there's a clear continuity underlying all of it. Even Jesus, while he represented a radical shift in the thinking of his time, can be fairly clearly and easy seen as fitting into the context of the classical prophetic tradition of Isaiah, Amos, etc. The early church knew this which is why the words about or attributed to him often quote or paraphrase the prophets.

What engagement with other texts and traditions has often done is to snap me into new ways of thinking about the world and God that simply would not have occured to me given only a Biblical context.

Good example of how engaging with another tradition influenced me: the vision of God presented in the Gita really opened my eyes to what "God" might really mean when I first encountered it. I was still a Christian then. I knew that the "old guy in the sky" no longer cut it for me but I didn't have a vision that was different. Then I read the Gita and did a course on Hinduism. In the end, the radically different view wasn't compatible with a traditional (or even most progressive) Christian vision of God and that's when I started to "drift away".

I have maybe 5 sources that I engage with deeply (science, The Bible, the root texts of India like the Upanisads and Gita, Taoism, Hellenistic philosophy). Others, mostly literary in nature, inform or inspire me within that context  (e.g. the poetry of Horace or Mary Oliver).

The fact is, some of us UUs engage with only one source (humanist UUs, Buddhist UUs, and so on), some with a few, some fit the stereotype you present.

The Qu'ran sits on my religion shelf and I have studied Islam. While I respect the wisdom found within and reject the stereotype of Islam being propagated by some these days, it certainly doesn't engage me the way that The Bible or the classical Indian texts do.

Amen.

Mendalla

Marcus Borg wrote in The Heart of Christianity that he was fairly certin that raised on another continent or in another culture, he would have practiced a different faith. Christianity was the one that worked for him, primarily because it was known to him. The Bible is one of the things I feel I have to develop some kind of understanding of. It would be my primary. Yet, because of my faith, I also feel I must know about other people's faith to build good and lasting relationships to change the world. The answer to "Why the Bible?", is because it is known to me and speaks to me in ways I can most relate to. It does not mean I deny the validity of other faiths.

I can relate to Buddhism, Judaism, etc. However I most relate to Christianity. The Bible is important in my faith, but not because it is written by God or anything. It is a basis for my faith, but so are the teachings of saints and theologians...

There is something in the writings of the Bible that is powerful enough to keep it in a central place. It is thousands of years of history. It contains the story of the beginning of many faiths.

I can read the Gita or the Lotus Sutra of Nichiren and find power and history and beauty amd the divine. However, it does not call me by my name. It does not feel like "mine". In church, I do not only focus on the Bible. I am one of those ministers who may have a poem or something else that speaks "the language". 

We will gather and share various Creation Stories to mark Creation Time. Ministry in First Nation communities mean accepting that their stories are not always the same as our stories. IMO one is not better than another, they merely speak differntly the same lessons and call our individual names.The divine is found where the divine is...

At least that's what I've found on my journey.

Why the Bible?

Thank you Mike and SG - your answers give voice to many of my thoughts, but more organized, and written more eloquently than I can manage.

The answer for me - it is the story of the faith into which I was born. It gives me my background - my roots. I believe that in order to understand another's culture, history, or religion, you have to know your own. When you study 'comparative' religion, you compare it to something - that something for me is my own religion - Christianity. Much of my understanding of Christianity is rooted in the Bible - the stories, the music and poetry, the ancient wisdom (some of which no longer makes sense for us today; but some which seems ageless).

The Bible gives me my roots - my past. I can't imagine living in the present, or looking to the future, without knowing my past. Some people might be able to live entirely in the present - but not me. I love history. I love knowing where I've been, where my ancestors have been, what they did, what they thought.

I need my Bible stories.

That isn't to say that I can't learn from other cultures and other religions. I can, and I do. I love to hear a poem, or essay, or reading from another perspective during a worship service - or have it printed, maybe in italics, in the bulletin for meditation before the service (or during the boring parts of the service). I love to discuss various religious points of view with others. Dukpa and I had great exchanges about Christianity and Buddhism when he lived in my home while at university.

I don`t worship the Bible. I worship God. I don`t read the Bible literally. I seek the truth revealed through the ages in its pages.

I attended a seminar where Borg and Vosper were the key-note speakers. Near the end I ask Vosper how often the Bible would be read during worship service in her church. Her answer seemed to me to be flippant. Something like, "As seldom as possible - maybe four or five times a year." That was a deal breaker for me. While I would welcome other readings, I would also expect to hear something from my own tradition more often than that.

I feel that I belong in the UCC. This is where I feel connected. I like the fact that across the country people are connected in reading the same scriptures. Heck - I even like the lectionary. I feel I can travel across the country and if I visit a UCC they are most likely reading and reflecting upon the same passages that my home congregation is reading. The emphasis will be different. The interpretation, hymns, prayers, other readings (if the minister or worship leader includes something from another faith tradition or something contemporary) - but at least one scripture reading will be the same.

Something that's very vivid in the Bible is a deep cultural bias against women. sometimes it's a hostility.

My feeling about this sort of injustice is that it is a challenge for us to change ourselves, not the Bible.

The Bible simply "is" what it is… we are the dynamic, changeable entities; the Bible is a reference document, not a dictat that demands dumb compliance.

We need to try to live the intention of "god" not the failings of past generations — we have enough of our own.

The bible is a good book to read to try and figure out where I come from (my mother and father) that still, to the day they die feel that putting men on the moon is a fantasy.

It your mother and father told you it was true and accurate ... should that be questioned? It could raise barriers about who accepts what ... puts that last verse of the Gospel of John in the high lights ... one should reach beyond! Of course this is just myth and fantasy to those fixed and indoctrinated to the concept of a hard mind is best ...

The softern can get around that like a jellyfish in a holy Bucket ... like as not or phegmatically ... plogestion? Then are sticky words mon ... those ones yah don't know ...

I agree. And I think that this might be a perfect example of where we need a reading from contemporary wisdom to balance the prejudices of our forefathers.

I think that's the problem for some, Seeler: the idea that experience of "god", that "tuth" and that "wisdom" come only from the written word of the Bible. It's an attitude that, carried to extremes,  misses the point of the Bible as a companion to life.

I can see why burning a Holy Koran is so outrageous. I cannot see why burning a Bible need offend anyone. The Bible is available is so many forms and translations, not one of which is an exclusively "authoritative" version… but, beyond that, it is only valuable as a living document to engage with in relation to real life and real experience. Burning a Bible does less hurt to "god" or "Jesus" that failing to seek the intentions and will of "god" in one's own life. The Bible is about life, not documents. And that's its power and beauty.

Yet we follow a tome that rose from the aches of all the books that Romans burnt some 2000 years ago ... can such burning be good?

And why I ask did the Romans redact these old stories? Because of the satire played against the Roman Authorities by people like Lucrece ... who few people know about today as literary geNus ... because all such report of this poet was scorched from the record ... or so the Roman's believed.

A'lass the myth went underground or at least sublime ... to be recarved in pain ... by sheer experience of the pain of life ... process that carries with it gross stew'þ'idée-ite ... in regard or perspective of alien word ...

Thus this is the way the soul isn't or won't be in presence case ... a real drifter that you encounter at times like driver in Australia ... that down-under myth bi-craqui ... the rise of V'Nus? Hard shell lass to find in time to possess your thoughts ... believe me as a deeper case, chi'll have eM in de night ... just gotta accept ID! The primal power is a vacant soul ... gives place for thought in a world that hates thoughts, thinkers and abstractions ... a psyche condition of a dementia in terre-ism?

Why The Bible?-----It is very simple to me . I t is the only book we have . That helps you understand  who Jesus The Christ is. There is no other belief or relgion that teachs this. The Christain Bible says.. ---Hebrews --

-

	Hbr 5:8	Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered;
	Hbr 5:9	and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
	Hbr 5:10	being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchiz'edek.

-The Bible as it is today helps those who  would seek GOD. There is no other Book I know of that can help you more. I do know there are some that can misslead you. airclean33

AC33 ... why do you so blatently ignore the word of Gospel of John 21:25 in a book you declare you take literally?

Gives me great mental conflict about your thus-diminished faith about the word as you read it ... excising that which you don't like to consider ... everything else so to speak! Isn't that a beauty of abstraction?

Can one imagine there being other books ... out-there ... beyond the Roman Law about wandering souls? Speak of slaves ... mental confinement ... what's a rotten thought? That's a alien desire ... as Eire'd ... even the Natzi's thought these best dead and buried as alternate powers ... well jew-ç'd and vapourized!

A'Lass what goes up comes down differently ... something that will haunt the past powers as corrupt thinking? So it goes in the de beiting of the hook ... and de Vorm is out on the page as book worm ... spoiled desires as laid down?

Why the Bible? I'm just really getting into it. I haven't been at it as long as some of you. I find meaning in other sources, disciplines like music, art, literature, science and philosophy, and experiences too. I always have but I wanted to understand this Jesus fellow! Felt really drawn to do so. He is so integral to history and society- and I knew inherently that some of the modern understandings of him we see today were being warped by popular media and culture and politics. I felt called to Jesus- what can I say! :) For now, I have enough to handle with the Bible to really get right into studying another religion, but I do always appreciate the pieces I learn. I like the UU for many reasons, but I felt it was lacking a focus and I wanted to get more deeply into understanding Jesus.

-I Bracked were  thats would normaly been at that time they were not written. But you see WaterBuoy our GOD is a living GOD so I am sure He has told many of those things to His Children.Those who walk with The Christ Jesus.

Why the Bible?

Because it gives us precious glimpses into the ancient Judaic culture, glimpses that are not available from any other sources. But this goes largely for the O.T.

And the N.T.? Well, it contains mainly pseudo biographies of Jesus that are legendary rather than historical. Moreover, they were written and selected by a particular religious faction who wanted to propagate their version of this new religion called "Christianity."

I find the Gospels that were not included in the Bible just as interesting as the ones that were included. Of real historical value are the Letters of Paul. Most of them have been independently verified to be authentically Pauline. They are rare and precious glimpses into the time right after Jesus' death, and are of great historical value even to non-Christian historians.

Much of the Bible is, of course, mystically inspired. But there are a great many other literary and other works of art that are also mystically or divinely inspired. They are all equally worthwhile to me. All human expressions of the mystical, spiritual or divine are equally worthwhile to me. Christianity just happens to be the spiritual tradition of my upbringing and culture. For this reason alone, Christianity and the Bible are particularly dear to me.

"But you see WaterBuoy our GOD is a living GOD so I am sure He has told many of those things to His Children.Those who walk with The Christ Jesus."

And you'd think that raptured minds (by love alone) would begin to learn something if this attrocious thing of desire that is so huge to them ... avarice, vanity of vanities ... passion without a clue ... myopic dreams and he tells me I'm abstract? Man are you missing the point of the living learn and the dead ... well ... makes for good stories on the walking dead ... Marie La Clair?

Did you know AC33 that the book was once called the Book of the Dead ... that's ancient wisdom to the Hebre'n soul ... I do believe that's beyond you ... sorry lad for what is incomplete in yer gift ; sort of like the parable of the buried talent ... another kind of chimerii non substance ... like psyche ... many don't seem to have awakened theirs ... to that greater sense of awareness ... appears to be out of here yet ... like big foot of Yetii ... that larger form of sole almost like morning vesper; a vapour from across de pond? The west appears to go by the power of doing anything you desire ... thought is excluded ... so that the underdogs too are free to chew away at the foundations.  Even sense that gnawing feeling inside ... that you got it wrong? Perhaps denial is too powerful for you when directed by passion alone ... can put out your lights ...

Didn't Christ speak of that (wealth numbing good sense)  them numbed by their riches? Lazarous returned to see just how bad he smelt to the others of the world? Again those old smelly words arise with new meanings attached ... from god knows where ... the ad vocation (overhead-wording) of the literate that arn't stuck ... sort of phlegmatic? Can say something of comfort to the underdogs of the þ'ithchis of Rome ... mostly dead fishes ... of course some won't go close to anything of depth or with an edge to-wit ... the stranger satyr is hated? When we were directed not to hate the other ... the beta Sam-Ayran ... counters them stuck in the ditches ...

Leads to all sort of varients of story ... and the outside powers seem to like a'Muse in the myth ... put some thought to it!

Do raptured minds like being devoid of thoughts and Lighter a'Muse mentsto be ...?

Stobe; like a foot against the foundationstone and doesn't know anything about it ... thus the fall ... something the devoid of thought can't get over ... just can't fig-Ur ...

I gave this much thought today. I was driving between pastoral care visits and had time to "just think". I thought about Anishinabe creation stories. Kitche Manitou created much the same as Hashem/God/Allah... The Name in our mother tongue, or a language we know, is important... I mean we all call The One in a name familiar to us. So, too is speaking of which we know. I cannot effectively and meaningfuly tell a story about snow to people who have no idea what snow is or that it is cold, etc. So, in my tradition I have Adam and then Noah and an ark instead of Nanabozho and then a muskrat and a turtle.  Had I been born and raised Anishinabe I know what I would embrace. So, why the Bible? Because of where I was born and to whom....

Some number of years ago the Cree people were trying to decide about writing down their oral history/culture. Elder Stan McKay, a former moderator with the UCCanada, gave a clear statement of why it ought to be done.

Stan suggested that there was risk in recording the oral tradition as text, as there was risk in not doing so. He expressed the hope that the written record might one day be read and the oral layer discovered. In this I learned that text is a surrogate for voice and that it is voice as itself that I value.

I understand that the Bible, in all of its diverse literary forms, is rooted in the ancient  oral cultures of the Semitic peoples. With the advent of writing, the oral was transcribed to carry forward the primary oral intuitions and insights of those ancient peoples.

Further, I take it that the Bible rendered and represented simply as text falls short of what is available. At a certain stage in my trajectory as an inquirer into the revealed and hidden things of life I first hear the voice of the Bible; as well as the many other texts with which I was engaged.

There is a text that I find supportive of my position. Jesus, addressing those who oppose him scriptural ground, states that they search the scripture and that in this they do well for the scripture point to his person. I take this to mean that there is a voice at the heart of every text. For me, idolatry consists in mistaking the textual representation for the living voice.

There is another text that helps me clarify my relation with the Bible. This is the short verse which says all scripture is inspired by God and profitable for insight and edification, or something to this effect. Scriptural literalists tend to take this as referring only to the Biblical texts. Some years ago my own understanding was enlarged by recognizing that the verse is inclusive of scripture not limited to the Biblical record.

I gained this insight while reading "As A Driven Leaf" by Milton Steinberg. This is a historically grounded novel which explores the diverse tensions at work in Judaism following the destruction of the temple in or about 70 AD. The novel makes it clear the the Jewish community was much distressed by the interest many of its membership were showing in texts and manuscripts originating among the Greeks.

This is evident in the gospel of John where the presence of certain Greek persons is noted. It seems clear to me that Galilee (of the nations) was a place where many persons, from many places, met and shared their experiences and insights. It seems to me that Jesus, being a non-conformist, would have listened carefully, comparing the difference and the similarity between what the foreign traditions and the Jewish traditions considered of primary concern when it came to the living of a good life.

I was raised with the Bible and have its core message near the very heart of my consciousness. This message, for me, is about the tension between the exercise and abuse of power and the hope of justice. The texts originated in a variety of historical epochs in which dominant power structures are exercised to exploit persons and land for the sake of profit and power.

We may think of Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Jerusalem and Rome. Each of these imperial epochs is grounded in the exercise and abuse of power. Each is challenged by the prophetic insight of assorted persons gifted with critical consciousness and a strong capacity for symbolic communication aimed to undermine confidence in prevailing structures of power.

Though my consciousness is informed by a great diversity of textual and oral traditions, I continue to draw on the Bible when engaged with other Christians. This is specially the case where I encounter dogmatic Christian assertions of an exclusive avenue of access to the divine consciousness and will. Too much of liberal Christian experience seems speechless before such dogmatic assertions.

My basic hermeneutic position may be summed up in a paraphrase of Paul: "The fictions of God are more potent than the facts of the present age." I ground this in the gospel affirmation that Jesus taught nothing without the use of a parable.

This brings me back to indigenous experience and oral culture. Truth is not communicated doctrinally or dogmatically. It is made available in stories, legends, sagas and songs. These inform experience through intuition and insight and not through precept and principle; as we have it in the positivist tradition of the West.

I will conclude by saying that Socrates, Buddha, and others have served me well as mentors allowing insight contrary to the received Biblical interpretations which served to structure my childhood imagination in conformity with the western liberal tradition.

George

Wonderful discourse George.  Well worth reading and rereading - and quoting parts in Sunday worship. 

George, are not the powers (judy-ism/judai'n) always at work with populations like Rome ... and yet underground a weaker power hides keeping IÐ's head down ... like a mental image in reversion ... an echo of a small voice coming back at you ... much the same as hermuenetic relates to exegete; one's out there, implicitly.

In a world driven by desire, you have to dig for thought!

But we are not allowed to say this to exegetes (leaders, authorities) as it reminds them of all they don't know about all-that-is (god's realm) that underlies all that is real. When authorities come face to face with something they can't control ... they get really Pi-said, angry about what they choose not to know ...

Such allows the hermuenetic to open up ... like a caldera or caldron in a swelling mountain ... in which the floor of the earth has opened up for everyone. Sort of a round about way to lay out mysterious forces of bosons when concentrated ... creates wee spots of code in which to hide a lot of thought. Some call it a centre of gravidy, even thought it might be nothing at the core of a sphere of physical power ... the essence of visiting the other side ... unbelievable by the stoic and fixed ... sort of like imagination of thoughts stated before ... you can almost hear them in that Zombie-like space of the human collective intellect ... nothing to many that can only see what they see ... la zerine ... superficially seer'd!

Brings darkness and occult back into the realm of god so chi can hide and keep the outer layers of the onion growing and warm with vitality. Much vitamen C in onions ... good for yah to consume ... a myth that turns up with some truth about buried layers of intelligence. Could this explain why we appear to fall at night, to  go sublime so we can unload fresh thoughts into god knows where ... a soul that is beyond human corruption? Don't go there unless you wish to know the deepest crap that mankind has done to itself ... if only we could see what is right under our I's ... the gift; delusion! Some say it comes back to yah as latent non-materialistic ... dark matter of conversion?

Sort of mythlike creation of autonomous thought ... a place many would sooner not reflect about as light spirits off the Wahl ...

Hard to describe a metaphysical existence in physical terms ... it's dark as a "bos'on" ... some scientists describe it as a thin line of no mass and volume that moves through space and connects the most desparate situations ... a dark pool?

Some would rather express this empiric mathematically ... so they could back away from fully understanding the formula ... as the other people ... an alternate people that didn't wish to understand judy-ism ... that dark power that covets a man ... the only escape is medium space ... when one becomes part of the interstitial script ... just a dumb word that needs to be felt ... in order to raise a balanced expression. This is the nut'n state to either extreme that is either eclectic or proto naked (naiq'd) sort of rye humur or extreme phoneticss bouncing around in the head as silence ...Shin-T'O-ism? Some say that it is something that one stumbles over when outside the mindless state of most of mankinds state of mind ... a raptured condition ... of the foundation's tone ... Song of Solomon?

The search goes on and on for god is well-buried and moving silently ... use care of chi could get you like eM -brein; the occult ... Noire Humur? Tis an odd state we set our ideals on ... right? Imagine defeating all that is around us and no consideration of the subtle stranger ... themon in the black masque of words ...

Hello, is there someone in here with me? Abstractly pondering mystery! Just Imagine as John Lennon would say as close to lemon as sour can get about people without creative sides ... downright-brained by the shock of the state they escaped ... very wom'ish ... realm of the preternatural C ... when all you heard was of your mother's pains ... giving you birth ... a dumb sense of fallout ... if that can be mentally projected ... then chi loved the wee chit .... with the dew of the dark flower still on its head ...

Don't tell me the great mother is excluded from the fatherlands ... chi's under or behind all male thoughts as he believes it is something to be conquered again and again after he's been had ... sort of entrapped or what the Greek called Nus'd ... lost his own ability to think straight ... thus all the curves in imaginary space like Ka Deuces ... double helix hung up on a Tae ...? Makes for a good trappist ... and I can't remember nut'n without a good myth behind it ...

Then Nous is an old Gael word that defines intimate feelings ... and the French can get really upset when used inappropriated ly when a person would rather screw the neighbour out of his vinyard rather than just love him for his work at the squeeze ... the grape press ... sometimes a work of wrath ... for those that hate bacchus ... root word in Finnigan's Island ... that's Jaimes or love to be there with that redding hared lass ... the lady with the provocative leer ... what chi knows ... you don't as clear as the sun settling in the west ... as Ta IR'd at the end of the day ... like Taduces in Sophy's Choice ... shouldn't chi receive some attention too for her labours? Alas the powers don't think anything should be given ... why we have to word god as a collecting expression ... is there another side tow it ...

Gotta be ... just pure logos, or logic if you wish ... where the pathological go when catatonic ... into a dark unseen rage ... MacPherson once had a rant ... possibly about being displaced from a casting in the UK once called scat, or skett ... natural cover for Celtic spirit? Just a mire fertile thought ... condemned by Rome ...

Consider me nothing George ... just a mire echo/ego from your past experiences with odd things ... rare cases in the emotional state we're in ... over ridden with fear and anger and completely unable to think when this is the general ground cover applied ...

GeoFee,

My experience and exposure allowed and enabled me to be aware of oral and written traditions. That was part of my initial my struggle with Christianity, I had only seen Christianity where there was almost a worship of the written.

 I knew of both Tanakh and Torah.

So, I could not begin in a place of “this is IT” or “this is all there is”.

We can imagine that trying to pass a written story down orally, there will be things lost. One simply cannot memorize that much.

I was also taught that oral traditions lose something by being written down. I recall one of the first things we were taught reading Torah was to look for what was assumed you already knew.

For those unaware, Judaism teaches that all was not/is not written. They teach that at Sinai there was also Oral Law (Torah) given to Moses that was not written down. It was taught and interpreted orally in the unbroken chains that make up a culture’s stories or beliefs. That is what was later codified and written as The Talmud.

So, when I read what another calls an “inconsistency”, I may not have ever thought it was. An example is Ruth and Boaz, people will say “but Moabites were forbidden”. There is oral tradition (later written) that I was taught that told me the prohibition was Moabite men.

I also started from a place of knowing that nothing later than Ezra was the criteria for Jewish canonization. That meant that I never thought “canon” meant “God stamped, sealed and approved”. Because, I was aware that several Jewish canonical books—Daniel, Esther, Song several books of Songs, Proverbs, the books of Chronicles—dated to a later period.

So, where my background posed an initial struggle it now provides an underpinning and a base for the NT.

No more rambling. I am off to hear more oral stories....

(Hi SG and GeeFee)-- I believe you will find The Lord Jesus was born a  Jew in  Israel over two thousand years ago. I take it He had a good Idea of how and what the Jews  believed and  were thinking and new . We have many vers of Him talking about The Old Testment of GODS word.  If you follow what GODS word says you will see He  that is GOD in the form of the Holy Spirit would be the Teacher. Indeed  it is what born agains call the infilling of The Holy Spirit .I seen nothing in GODS word , or has He told me to look to buda. Or any other pagan god. If you have, then that is your belief . Good luck with it.  airclean33.

Airclean
I believe Jesus knew Judaism.
There is not a single word in any post I made that says, infers or even hints about following Buddha being in the Bible.
You do know that Judaism is not a faith that a one true teaches that there is only one true faith.Right?

Hi SG, let me explain how I understand the words Tanakh, Torah and Talmud. Please help me correct my understanding if I got something wrong.

Tanakh is a vocalization of TNK, where T is short for Torah, N is short for Nevi'im, and I for Kethuvim.

In this case Torah, in English sometimes called The Law, refers to the 5 books Genesis to Deuteronomy.

Nevi'im, also called The Prophets, and Kethuvim, also called The Writings, together refer to the other books of the Jewish bible (and corresponding to the other 34 books of the Jewish scriptures as they appear in typical Protestant Christian bibles).

There is also the "oral Torah", as well as (or including? I don't know) the oral tradition, eventually also written down as the Talmud, which is not considered part of the Jewish bible, but is considered to be an "official" (or "authorized"? Sorry, but I don't know the right word to use here) interpretation of the Jewish bible (or perhaps only of the portion known as Torah?).

Sorry I needed so many words for a minor point. Enjoy the oral stories. 

RAN, Torah means different things in different contexts. It can mean only the first 5 books. It can also mean just the Tanahk and/or the entirety of what Christians refer to as the Old Testament- Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim. It can mean the oral Torah, called the Talmud, oh and that might just be the Mishnah (written earlier) or the Mishnah and the Gemara (written later).  Talmud might mean the Jerusalem Talmud or the Babylonian one... It is like a Facebook status, "it's complicated" Especially because on top of that there are Rashi and Rambam commentaries.... the Zohar of Kabbalah... Yeah, it's complicated. =)

This, for me, is one of the strengths of Judaism. Whereas Christianity seems to have fairly quickly settled on a rather rigid "this is what is right" canon and jettisoned much that didn't fit that, Judaism seems comfortable with having a looser, more flexible notion of "canon".

Hinduism is like this, too, in some regards. The "canon" covers everything from the Rig Veda to the Upanisads to the epics like the Mahabharata (of which the Gita is a chapter) to later commentaries and teachings on all of them.

Mendalla

I thought only the Tanakh was considered "scripture" in Judaism. 

There are many Jewish writings that various Christian churches consider "scripture", some of which even appear in the widely used Revised Common Lectionary. So far as I know, these books are not considered "scripture" by any Jewish groups today, though it seems possible that some Jews did view them as scripture in times long past. (Septuagint).

I'm really enjoying this intelligent, respectful, and informative exchange of ideas.

Even fewer know how to spell Lucretius

I think you've got rape on your mind...

Tee he...

RAN, you are correct if you are asking what is in the Hebrew Bible. What is "scripture" is a bigger question. The Hebrew scriptures, if used meaning the Hebrew Bible,  would consist of twenty-four books of the TaNaKh, an abbreviation for Torah, Neviim, and Ketuvim. However, the sacred texts of Judaism are never limited to the Hebrew Bible. The Mishnah is sacred text. Torah shebe'al peh or Oral Torah is considered equally as authoritative as the Torah shebikhtav or Written Torah, because both were given at Sinai.The Amoraim, "discussers" of the Mishnah compiled their interpretations into the Gemara. Jewish scriptures would include midrash up to modern day. They are considered a continuation of sacred scripture itself. The thought being that every rabbinic interpretation ever possible was already revealed to Moses at Mt. Sinai by God as part of the Oral Torah. The Chasidim included the writings of zadikim. So, Judaism has a different meaning to the word "scripture. The biblical canon has itself remained sacrosanct but Jewish thinkers in every generation have continued to create "scripture" and it is ongoing.

Hi SG, then what is the difference between Hebrew "bible" and Hebrew "scripture"? Since all are considered to be sacred texts.

How to decide which rabbinical interpretations become "sacred text"? Paul seems to have been a rabbi with non-traditional interpretations. Some called Jesus "rabbi" too.

The Patheos Library has a good section on Judaism. It is where I send a lot of folks. There is a section on Sacred Texts as well as one on Sacred Narratives. They can explain it far better than I can, of that much I am sure  http://www.patheos.com/Library/Judaism

Thanks SG. I'll spend some time browsing the site.

George, once again you rang my bell...a great post!

and Your

"I was raised with the Bible and have its core message near the very heart of my consciousness. This message, for me, is about the tension between the exercise and abuse of power and the hope of justice."

...Took 15 minutes to ponder the history and implications of that.

Abuse of power...and it's universality...

Ah,  'hope springs eternaly in the human breast' Better to shuffle off this mortal coil than to see the coming reach for power by the atheistic mobs as they start killing all those awful  religionists...Right after the World nuclear war...Aboiut a hundred years away...Ah, but there's always hope for some sort of continued awareness...doubt and hope  make strange bedfellows...

Cheer's m'friend...

Happy John, have you ever read The Swerve; in which Poggio relates some old Lucre things (like onyx, or O'niches) leading to Luke and other ridiculous things to disturb the stoics ... as in a dark stroke of humur (on the evolution of tongues) some things are latent or apotheostic ... sort of a religious stick in the mud that grew into something else ... some loqoç followed ... in some tradition this is a guce or goose to get the mule going across the field (numb drifters?) on the other side is found get-Cha-Gumie ... and phlogestion stuck ... s'knotty story ... do you know phlogestion; a bit of viscus'd rift? It gets hung up on Moe Lass's ... like in sects, bug catchers? Never, never let the quiet lass by without testing Ur ... you just don't know what chi gnoes ... it is purely Gnoestic! Subtle tiyes; Luce connections? you see humans have lost their abstract side ... they can't see the value of what's beside them or out-there ... fear and anger being too close together to allow anything but a thin attraction ... a cosmological constant! Plate onyx; dark flat out ... like des crypt code ... could be de script spell!

Are you aware of the various understandings attached to "Poggio"? Leads to POGO and the swamp mentality ... it's rich with old dead things like the marshes at the end of the Nile! Then there's the witch of New O'leans (Marie L'Clair)Something always comes of it ... mid life crisis before entering the larger pool/mere/mare/Scie ... and the olde-salt was deposited ... as mire metaphor! There are Saxon myths that parallel this ... Tristan and Isolde? What was sold? The bride of the BS (Bacchus Science is dark) silly, the young woman always gives the story a dark side ... thus the Shadow ... she knows as she was silent in the bedrooms of royalty ... listening and they thought she was dumb! Does this mean all silent people are dumb? Consider the Hebre as defined by the Sufi ...

"Even fewer know how to spell Lucretius

I think you've got rape on your mind..."

Would that be like a RIFT in mind; pariah-tal lobes? Mined being that beyond what is physical ... a mere space in de dirt ... as  metaphysical. Such nonsense could cause a shift in the mind of the down to earth and dirty-minded sorts ... if the cisturn lost her thoughts for a bit ... alien things are received ... and life goes on even tho' the perpetrators pas'ed ... like an eddy midstream ... a dervish from the fishes point of view. Ever looked at the brain as a mire peculiar cyst? It seems to do little as 80-99.99% of it's function is dark (depending on who you speak to as an authority on such mystery). Now is mystery connected to dark matter or is there just dark energy installed there ... less than positive emotions ... that's a thought! Why thought gets a bad name ... to those that just don't see anything else in all-that-is ... an infinite entity searching for a well-accepted name that mortals won't fight to the death over! Then creation had to bury the emotions somewhere ... and dirt was the answer and now we have mudder hearth ... where man cooks his own guçe ... god being out there ... ain't that some wonder-Eire/Ayre/Ur?

Phonetics meis mon, it's all in the ankh of phonetics and man doesn't like too much of it ... silence is best ... and so it was writ! Thus chi communes in silence like Tao-ism ... just listen to yourself a bit ... it's OEM'rus ... sort of like a faint HISSSS ... perhaps Hehs ...

And you know how real people feel about such points ... they can open hard spaces ... carve words in a stone that just won't go away ... why the mind is esse-tool-lye super fluid ... so mortals can't get a grip on anything beyond them that they see and would have great desire to control. Consider the aÐ'm ... have we screwed up with that grasp? It has infinite potential but business likes cutting corners ... like the Nazi's with working ethics ... exterminate them. And reaction/response occured in a peak experience to many ... even those that believed the hollocaust was a lie ... the cutting out of a vast market place ... all that was left was light ... in dark and lighter forms ... so much clay bull (clé-taurus) like Minos this one with a caldron ... once you're into it you're cooked ... like Guç ... or a Kuss ... until they learned to remove the feathers first. This amounted to angels without wing nor a prae-Eire ... ben Had dus ...

Then laughter would cause a RIP'R in those that consider themselvestoic (toy-ich; a self to plae with) Einstein even had difficulty with earth being a dimple in space ... his relating this wouldn't fit into his conception of quanta ... which appears to be something else again ... quite strange ... and you know what real men think of strange ... just won't go there ... dark things scare them ... thus depressive spirits grew arms and legs with curves to attract real men distracting them from war ... now thats  phunnie or a real Tae Heh! Hebre holy blunder ... a double negative in its space ...

Now how does one reconcile a dimple in space ... like a hole in nothing ... a real RIP'r if you're looking at it from beyond the generally accepted way ... that's imma-jinn-ation ... or hope of something else again when carrying some light into alien dimensions.

Went to see The Butler yesterday (serves to resurrect shadows) something else to stir the profound mind ... then there are those that just can't see the point of the story ... too numbed by their isolated state as if physical wealth numbs them to anything "other"? Allows one to connect Lazarus and the rich man myth ... an imaginary state ... delusion caused when a man think he owns a piece of earth and it's the other way around ... "che" gets you in the end ... if you've been hit hardenough by mysterious energy you're like a beau'son on the bounce. All over the place like Lord Rutherford's photon ... some consider it just lyon space ... only god is real and that's 99.99% nothing ... or are we looking at it from the wrong side of the Moe Rael pool? Sometimes the mob mentality just carries us away ... without adequate testing, trying and questioning of the numb parts ... so quiet after a thorough screwing over ... by the elite ... now go figure that position ...

Now if you're looking for rape in the literature, I ask why ... there just too much sects and rheum to be had all about us to wonder where love went as god ... it tickles as it passes ... dija'see that-Eire one goen? Wa-Tae butte that one had on  ID ...

Youknow that the hollow darkness or word is loaded with abstraction ... why it can cause you to drift ... into oblivion. One psychologist aquaintence said this was his greatest mystery: where catatonics go when not with us ... possibly against us howling it up on the other side? Shut up and listen hard ...!

Where do dirty thoughts go for catharsis ... will that wash in a blue poeL like yellowed cotton'n the dash with the Irish washer woman? Hard to say ...! Dunne Gnoe ... in church law I supposed to be stupid about love in the wash ... so men can go into war in a rye state ... naked souls for de slaughter-hoes-boies ... rabis with an edge?

Just barely whetts the mystery ... of the destination of the redding lass ... with the blush of Eros ... something chi'll deis fore? getting that reverse crank! Eases the vertegos ... but you don't know this as a young b'n ... that's ןיב ...  in late Hebre with a'pos'theosis inserted ... just is ... don't have to think about it unless you'd like to exclude emotions from it ... then it's outright sex, without thought. Is this the objective a well-screwed up dimension? Causes divine states of separation ...

Why the Bible? To keep it short, because the moment that I first read it (in my early-mid 20's) I was aware of a power that I hadn't found in anything else that I had ever read. It truly from moment one came across to me as a living word, one that was not only giving me information but was actually speaking to me, engaging me, pushing me, challenging me. I've read secular literature, academic works on science, history, etc., other religious works, other faith's scriptures, and while much of what I've read is interesting and wise and thought-provoking, nothing has ever affected me like that.

And because it's "living" as far as I'm concerned, it's also not restricted to a particular piece of work written to particular people at a particular time in a particular place. It resonates far beyond those restrictions. And because of that what I've found is that, while I've learned a lot about God from other sources, I'd still say that really everything I've ever NEEDED to know about God I can find in the Bible. And it still engages me. I can probably open the Bible to 1 Kings right now and be hit with somehting I've never thought of before.

I absolutely agree with this! No other book has had such a life long impact on my life and heart.

Amen, Steven!

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Here I am not sure what you mean. Can you expand on this a little?

Actually, no I can't. Not trying to be difficult, but it's hard to be clearer than that. Here's an attempt: the Bible is timeless, not time restricted. For all the cultural and historical biases that are contained I still find it speaks to me without a whole lot of difficulty in understanding what it says, whereas - to use another example I used in another thread - while I can slog my way through Shakespeare and enjoy it, there are things I just don't get in Shakespeare, mostly because it was written in a very different time. 

Like a bodkin* as a spinning shaft? Comes into the weaving of the story ...

*(some knowledge of textiles and fabrication required) Do not exclude string theory as the tales of all people should be inclusive ... as unconscious psyche? Sort of adds to the mystery for those that didn't wish to know and prefer to struggle with ignorance. Some say it is a type of conspiracy that came to be with the birth of myth ... or mirth if you will ... some call it murrth-Eire ... that incites some to murder cause they don't like wee folk giggling in the shadows ... leaves those exposed unsure of themselves ...

Then there are those that ignore the hint found in Gospel of John 21:25 and will not acccept anything that resonates with other dimensions ... hollow souls? We always feel the other knows nothing right? Yet in the cumulative form do they know more that "I" or "U" individually? It's something that you can bet on if you get out and about ... like Shakespearean blood ... that's dark humur ...

If you take this life as real and not close to pure crazy ... you'll not get to the next niche or notch in the tree ... another ruagh spot (bump) in the larger journal ... loqoç ... good place for tree f(rogues) ... those that deal with the beyond ordinary bugs at pond level ... calls for anima that evolved into probing for bugs with a lost straw ...

Leaves room for lots of retelling to a'Muse the self ... as mire of what ihc's yah ... and wondering why the collective keeps making the same old mistakes over and over ... its just beyond meis tue ... as I try to keep a stone face in light of the crazy state we're in ... how many poor families would Pam W's waste support? Nosh -ite? Multiply that by what factor in the top 5% of the paradigm ... and it leads to certain collapse of faith in exegetes ... nothing fouler than that statement power corrupts! High people just can't get over that myth ...

There is a spark of humanity in that book but the rest of the pyre lies outside the book as the law burns the general population of common folk ... meant to be the victims of religious hate ... pain allows learning ... can't learn without it ... why rich people are the way they are ...

This is just my poor mind speaking ... an alien, non-material thing, strange metaphysics ... the process of thought ... many don't get this talent ... as something you got to work down to ... loe Ur gold ... that loving chimerii thing in Dan's providing a shadow like Oagi in the village square ... scratching out po'et'ix that the really po' phoqah can't unravel ... ne'er been taught ... especially about Jahn's myth ... as common story that those on high just don't hear until the whole thing collapses ... this is society at its finest hour ... creating Runes ... man of letters ... who study the detailing of history as if it were ass terre OID ... close to n'OID that's nothing at all like thoughts that are metaphysical creations ... mortals fear thought ... generating paranoid ... that is realted to omiNous ... that frightful gnawing inside about not understaning the mystery ... and thus the fallout ... conspiracy of being innocent of all things.

What does a man learn without making mistakes?---sort of paraphrased from T Boone Pickens ...

These, the devil encompasses with Q'Luçe about the dark code of word (it's inky and shadowy like Bachus) . Those with love alone ... well they just get to know nothing ... as they wished ... sob eit ... it's a crying shame ... some return to the devil without clues and get recycled ... resurrected again while the rest of us wonder about in our thoughts ... eternal wander Ayres for there is so much to learn once you break through the veil of fabric . Anyone read Bob Woodwards tome on Veil ... it's about where lies fall ... floating black chit and all that is like jet-Sam ... generally laws that make one think a bit ...

Of course I'm out of that clique ... Happy John says as he sits there lilly white as the porcelain stool ... not unlike the copies of A'Donis in marble ... the original in basalt ... that's abstract mon ... just like soul!

Let-Eire; the old pharts version of truth contained in a myth ... so we wouldn't have to know unless you dig the underlying cause ... sect you ale idée ... something useless without respect of what you learn in soul blow'n experiences ... like life as short as it is ... mortals are generally stupid your honour ... as 85% or so are deficient in something physical and the rest have nothing upstairs ... that's aL ... like the Gael salle ... a rheum for getting it together ... that was known as Atti-Ca in one tradition ... a prison-like state as people arn't free with common love ... only deadly passion ... like women who have been short changed a mite or two ... that' Ur in myth ... of psyche! Chi doesn't exist here ... commonly speaking ... chi likes to murrdyr rabi's in that state of mind ... and the teacher is out of it ... happens is vast tracts of history (that's like chrone or time)!

Once you're stopped you'll see-Eire ... at what you missed in passing ... leave you smoking with the rest ... not quite fully lit-Ural but starting to glow ... reamins of a life are like that if well into it ... some don't even touch the surface of reality in their fall ... hung up on kingdoms, churches, palaces ... but not peoples ... that's eM ... Dawkin's missing L inque in the Kate in Ernie ... Eerhe?

I've been told on this site:

• God is nothing
• Mind is nothing

Thus equating mind to god and thus by logoç one can ascribe that wisdom and knowledge ar a bit thin/ethereal in this dimension ... perhaps we'll find some in another ... if you can conjure up the abstract ... the mire Shadow of doubt in such convoluted tome ... that allows for satyr (word) in a land where understanding is outlawed!

Consider a person that is illiterate listening to a latin law in church ... a devil of a conception to follow ... Gnoe?

You might as well listen to Latin as an English personif you don't understand the history of word and how it evolved from scions on the Wahl ... that's a whale of a story in Danish terms ... but some people don't believe in the alrger story/myth/parable due to past burnings of real 'eros ... them's the points we should learn from ... while sitting hollow as ground ... the edge being curved ... a literary term meant to get by the fixed facts that the earth is flat. Truth has been like that ever since as we are thrown curves ... ass-is ... still diminishing respect exists for that which surrounds us ... intellectually speaking ... non-stuff that's out there as RIFF't ... like that one that ends in Palestine ... great a' freek'n thing that's mysterious in Gonawanda land ... spinning on a sticl and appearing asphi in the Greek's crypt ... close to a "Q" ...

One could elaborate on it but best not to ... mortals don't like great myths ... too big for their botes ... so they went overboard ... that's the wadis below ... sort of a veil'd attempt at humus? It is a fertile thing ... sometime febrile in a thin environment! 

By whom? When? When you were told that, how did you respond? How did you feel?

You juust jump this at us and then slide into several other topics crammed in a sentence

unfollowable, without any agreed upon definition upon which to draw to the conclusions (if that is what they are) that are reached. But you know that.

Whatever. Have fun.

Thelema-helios, then.

Consider a person that is illiterate listening to a latin law in church ... a devil of a conception to follow ... Gnoe?

No. One memorizes the sound: Et tin terra pox home inny moose, bone a vol lune ta teese.

THEN you find out what it means.

THEN you kick yourself for not learning latin when you had the chance.

"You might as well listen to Latin as an English personif you don't understand the history of word..." 

Face it: it's a hobby of yours, as a linguistic teaching, it falls flat in the wake of semantics.

"One could elaborate on it but best not to ..."

So...your last 45,324 posts with a total of 2,543,765 words is really keeping it tight???????

mortals don't like great myths ...

Sure we do!

"too big for their botes ... so they went overboard ... that's the wadis below ..."

Are you going to pretend that this is a myth in the making, or it is something to be communicated as an historical truth...or a something else....

Oh! You explain it! 

"sort of a veil'd attempt at humus? It is a fertile thing ... sometime febrile in a thin environment!"

Well THAT explains everything!

Thanks! 

He probably heard it from me. But the God or Mind that is nothing is also the God or Mind that is everything.