bless you, fellow follower of chaos

may you never stop learning

may life never cease to be interesting and marvelous for you and yours, Jae

go forth and continue to be fecund and screw those that you give power over you, that you give justification for your thoughts, feelings & actions to

may you continue to realize that you are morally responsible for everything you do

groan.

Posted by Jae:

"Yeah - I don't want to go into all that. WC and WC2 are different places. I've changed - largely due to seminary - including being in a spiritual triad - and having bi-weekly counseling sessions."

Your comments here indicate you haven't changed one iota, Jae.  Kinda hard for a leopard to change its spots....

You don't see a difference? I'm being thankful for the way I've been treated here over years. Thankful - and not bitter. That's significant.

Thank you my friend - and a piece of lemon pie for you.

*heart*

Jae, I bid farewell to your trolling posts here.  It certainly wasn't all of them, but there were enough to tick people off.  Just don't bring them along to WC2 :)

Having taken a bird's eye view of this place the last several days... i have to say that without moments of cantankerousness, arrogance, bafoonery and even sometimes idiocy displayed by many of us here on occassion...if we all just chirped along in agreement, this place would actually be really boring and we'd never learn a thing! Not nearly as entertaining to read, either. So, I hope people's unique flaws and eccentricities continue to strengthen the new site- yes, strengthen- as it goes forward- keeping in mind that each person behind the avatar is a human being no more or less valuable in the world than any other. We all have our good days, bad days, and unique views.

Failed experiment?????   

I don't think the WonderCafe failed at all.  It was originally intended for a three year run; it's continued for seven wonderfilled years.  It's brought us together, introduced us to new ideas, stretched our minds.  It's helped us to make friends, both virtually and in the flesh, across Canada and on the other side of the world.  It's informed us and comforted us.  

And it's continuing on in its successor.

Failed!!!!   No way!!!!

Way to go seeler. Have you preregistered for ww2 yet

Overall, I agree with you, seeler. Hardly a failed experiment. That's something Dcn. Jae has come up with for some reason. I think Wonder Cafe was actually a remarkable online community - a particularly remarkable faith-oriented one. It struck a chord with many of us and became the only one I regularly connected to. It seems to me that WC demonstrated the potential for online communities. This truly became a "community" for many. A place for gathering and sharing. Hardly a failed experiment. I'm not happy with the manner in which the United Church pulled the plug with virtually no engagement with the community, but I do think the United Church should be credited for having at least had a vision of what such a community could be. It's unfortunate that the United Church has decided that its Facebook group(s) are its go-to solutions for online communities, but perhaps it's just time for the WC community to spread its wings and fly free in WC2. Still, with respect to Dcn. Jae, hardly a failed experiment.

I agree Steven. Hardly a failure.

aaah, Jae.

I am so glad that you are continuing to show your delightful character on wondercafe.

Jae it is my impression that you have not changed.  That your behaviour on wondercafe2 and others is just an attempt to slip through the waters for a while, then, [***bad language removed by Admin] you are will just reappear, and troll as much as before.

I have zero respect for you or your behaviour towards individuals.

Your focus on bullshit such as you have listed on the opening post is consistent throughout your time.

You seem to enjoy creating discord and appear to feel that is your role.

Rather than attempting to build relationships, you seem to seek to destroy.

That is your call, but do not expect that people will see you as a deacon or pastor when your presence  here is of a snake.

alas, true colours are revealed.

Jae, you are entitled to your opinion.

jae,
May you be blessed with the skill of forgiveness or a loss of long term memory, so you won't keep on chewing on the old stuff for years to come.
You have done so well, lately, working towards peace and understanding. I am sorry about this set back.
I hope to see you on WC2, and hope you can come without the baggage you seem to carry forward for so long.

Note: if someone wishes to report my language, be kind to Aaron.  Do it on Monday.

"Welcome to the home of open-minded discussion and exploration of spiritual topics, moral issues and life's big questions, brought to you by the people of The United Church of Canada. You'll find lots to talk about in our Discussion Lounge, and you'll get your very own Profile Page for telling others a little about yourself, starting a blog, or sending and receiving WonderMails. So pull up a chair and join in."

This is the written invitation for WonderCafe - note: the term WonderCafe is no loger used- instead, one can join and enter into the Discussion Lounge.  That is a purposeful distinction.  The one positive phrase used is"open-minded discussion".

Launching WonderCafe (WC)probably had a number of benchmarks, not all of which were presented to any who joined and created a WC community - sometimes bequests are general, and sometimes there are restrictions/ conditions as to how money is used. 

The fact that UCCan is shutting down WC, because of costs - and that is the principle reason presented by UCCan, proves it to be a mistake: volunteers present a very cost-efficient alternative, and so it does not make a lot of sense for UCCan to walk away from operating WC - UCCan could not have sourced out better, less costly ways to maintin WC?  Really?   The best guess is that other objectives were not met.

WC is being closed down, so at the very least, after less than decade, it is not a viable, or successful project.  Definitely, with the exception of Aaron posting,  I have not seen any writings or posts from UCCan leaders acknowledging a WC community, or even the fact that closing WC matters in any significant way.  And to be fair - if I have missed any messages from the Moderator or other leaders regarding the closure of WC, I do apologise.

UCCan is walking away from a virtual community.  Perhaps it is better to understand WC as a less than successful outreach project- but it is, never the less, a failed outreach inititive - otherwise, shutting it down would not be an option.

It  was never meant to be an outreach endeavor and it was never meant to put bums in the pew.

You are correct, CrazyHeart.

The software is old, it is tired.  The organization has lots to focus on.  Alternatives are available.  Life goes on.   

We, the masses, figure out how to do stuff where others did not.

I know I've spent time remarking how it failed as a recruitment device, and despite what anybody said, it had to have a recruitment component to it. It was a form of Internet outreach.

But was it a complete failure? No way. It spawned this group or people. It spawned WC2.

Cost was a factor in the close. The thing is, members donating time keeps costs artificially low. If we had gone to an Internet marketing firm to start a new forum, we'd be looking at substantially higher costs than doing it ourselves. The UCCan doesn't have the ability that we do, because they have to pay people. Also, Wondercafe was a new undertaking for them, and other than this place, my understanding is they have no experience with running online forums before WC. Pinga, Mendalla and I have taken part in online forums and have more combined experience in this area than the UCCan does. We were not tied to a specific forum platform, and were free to choose the best forum solution, and not forced into selecting one that had to host blogs or church finders. We now have the opportunity to focus on doing one thing very well.

So, WC marches on, at WC2. 

In case you wonder, Pinga, it was me who flagged you and it was the first and only flagging I have done during the existence of WC.
As you say in your post, you do not respect Jae, you are calling him an asshole ( and this is not worded in the sense of "you are behaving like an asshole") -it s degrading and you are not only embarrassing yourself here , you are contradicting the code of conduct for WC2 you have worked so long and hard on.
So I have asked to remove that part of your post for your and for Jae's sake.

This is not about if you are right with your judgement or not- it s about manners in public and a basic respect for people that excludes personalized foul language.

Mrs. Anteater. I have no problem with anyone flagging it. I doubt you are or will be the only one who does.

I chose those words for a reason.

I will be disappointed if a moderator chooses to remove them.

They would even be worth being chastised for

I have told teachers in my youth, and bosses in my adulthood to fuck off as well

There are times when certain language is called for. It gets attention. It stops the conversation.

The games of trolls are boring, the manipulation of those who actually care about the room.

You see, jae sucks at doing it. He usually pulls in a few and most just call him on his behaviour. That conversation then becomes nauseating

The person who loses the most is the admin who has to deal with it on weekends

I am going to bet the admin won't miss the report generation

So, rather than recognize that there are a couple of things Jae still feels hurt about- maybe they are legitimate pains in his own experience of WC- and maybe the closing of this site is bittersweet and he is processing all those memories (that's what I'm picking up on) he's called names. I think he's venting and grieving not trolling- that's my perception (although the train thing is irrelevant). Is it so freekin hard to say, "I'm sorry you have those bad memories and still have those lingering feelings." How much skin is it off of anyone's nose to address those things with some sensitivity. I wasn't around but I understand Jae has a very different perception of the Five Oaks outing than everyone else. Maybe try hearing him out. Not always the most sensitive bunch around here. Pinga, jae's post is no worse than your response to it, IMO. I see that dynamic time and again here- but it slips the notice of us while we're engaged in it. I hope it's something that all of us who've been guilty of it, can work on.

Kimmio, sure.  Jae's games re the picnic are classic.  Done, redone, apologized for, redone, apologized for.   

Feel free to come to his defense as he plays his games.  It works to his benefit.  It is also part of the classic behaviour.

I do hope the behaviour ends in this forum.

I am also someone who had hopes each time the apologies came out, the regrets, the "i've changed my coat"

Well then, maybe just accept that Jae's in a testy mood today, ignore it and engage in the better conversations. I happen to like him and think he's got good qualities and his bad ones are no worse than anyone's here, when they show.

Kimmio, how can he be testy here and not testy in WC2 today. ( crazyheart scratches head in bewilderment.................... He is acting politely there.

Maybe it's his last chance to get it off his chest and leave it behind him? I don't know.

Kimmio, you weren't at the Five Oaks outing, and if you were you would know that Jae's allegations are false.  Jae blindsided good people here with his false accusations.  There was a thread about it where we heard Jae out.....over and done with.  

People have been more than sensitive to Jae's feelings over the years, so accusing us of being insensitive doesn't help the situation. 

Jae stated - "Thank you for providing a place where my beliefs could be mocked and ridiculed - and where I could be called an idiot because - my inner Jae was showing."

Jae chose to post his beliefs here, no one forced him to.  He had no difficulty mocking the UCC, our moderator and others.  When people called him on his behavior he whined and complained.  I kept hoping Jae would demonstrate growth and maturity in his comments but it appears that won't be happening.

Jae hurt people with his comments, but I guess that's okay from your perspective.  Not very long ago you attacked Pinga with some inappropriate words....interesting. 

Yes. I did. And I apologized for it. That doesn't make it okay for Pinga to do it. No, it's not that interesting. I was ticked off- and hurt by Pinga's own comments- I expressed it inappropriately rather than holding off and cooling down first. Simple as that.

I wasn't at Five Oaks, no. But what Jae is feeling about it, Jae is feeling about it. He's entitled to feel as he does. I think he was probably using this thread as his last chance to get it off his chest and put it to rest. And, at least it's clear that he still has lingering feelings. We can see that for what it is, read more into it, or ignore it. This was a stand alone thread where he chose to express it- and he didn't name individual names. I do think the mockery of Jae at times has been an over-reaction because people have grown used to allowing themselves to be triggered by his behaviour- which is, if it is bad only a minor irritant. I think we can be big enough to see underneath it and try to care through the irritant. I don't see the really big deal.

I got here long after the Five Oaks meet up took place, and since then have witnessed others calling Jae names or immediately having out of place reactions to his posts- some very insensitive comments that don't display growth or maturity on the part of others. So as far as I can tell, nobody's right and we all have a tendency to be hypocrites. Might as well admit it. I can understand both sides...how it is difficult to get along when just when you think there's progress...the thorn in the side reappears...and...I can also understand why Jae has lingering hurt feelings and calling him names first and then putting the onus on him to repair damages is certainly not going to help ease them or foster good trusting relationships going forward. Who here would feel good about trusting a group of people who calls you names all the time or lets you know how much you are disliked? If you think that'll help that's some pretty new fangled reverse phsychological principle you've got going on. It won't work. Hasn't yet. For the record...I like Jae. I think he's creative, sensitive, intelligent, often funny...and if he has his testy days. Oh, well. We all do. We should endeavor to, and be able to, respond differently and better than we have.

Was outreach a goal for the UCC launching the WonderCafe?   I am quite sure it was.  Was that outreach intended to put bums in the pews?  I'm sure that it was hoped for.  

But that isn't the main goal of outreach.  Outreach is to reach out into the community and the world - to feed the hungry, heal the sick, visit the lonely, encourage and affirm the discouraged, and share the good news.  We did all that - in spades!   

My hope is that our successor - WC2 will do as well.

Kimmio, you have a big heart.

I don 't know why Jae is acting like he is acting, but my point is that WC is different from other online discussion groups because from it s origin people try to understand each other and respect each other, if deserved by action or not. I have always felt this as to be an expression of faith, recognizing the human value in one another as a fellow human being expressing God s love. This basic respect expresses itself for me in restraining from personal insult.

Because, in the same way, as we as a community, are putting up with Jae s inability to get over past hurt, we are also putting up with Pinga s inability to admit that that post was more the result of her anger reaction than her usual logical reasoning.

but we know Pinga has been patient and understanding before, and Jae had been reasonable before.
This thread is really not worth saving.

Fair enough. I agree with you. And there isn't much else that can be said for this thread.

You flagged Pinga and never me? Now I'm offended.

Jae has a long history of this sort of behaviour. He will lash out with unfounded accusations, defend them for a very limited period of time before announcing his departure or change of heart. He will then reappear days later, historically with a new username when that was an option, and pretend like nothing ever happened.

Jae is capable of better - we all know that, and that's why there has been an incredible amount of patience shown already. Jae would be run out of any other online community I've ever been a part of. But here, we keep going down this road. If you continually act like an asshole, over the course of years, someone is going to call you an asshole. That's pretty light, all things considered.

No one is threatening to ban Jae from WC1 or WC2, but I can see why some would swear at him. That's probably only a sanitized version of our internal response to his posts, and posting them is honest and justified by this point, in my opinion.

And you've spurred Aaron into action, removing the word from Pinga's post.

Here's the part I don't get: If the post was so offensive that it has to be brought to a mod's attention for the sake of the author and the target, why did you quote it? I don't understand that approach, where you claim to be attempting to spare the feelings of one and save the reputation of the other, and so you make sure everybody can read it again.

I quoted it above because I don't think it's that bad, and I think it needed to be said. I'm the first to congratulate Jae when he makes the effort to get along. I like Jae when he's like that. But he alienates people and drives them away, and I think it's a perfectly acceptable approach to be brutally honest instead of ignoring it.

I would rather, on WC2, members speak up and set the tone with other members, than force mods to modify posts or hand out suspensions. Maybe others will disagree with me, and that's fine. But that's how I think a forum runs best, when members call out other members for being habitually destructive to themselves and the forum.

Calling on mods to censure those who express honest and defensible reactions to the destructiveness of others, just gives power to those who act to undermine the forum.

Well-stated, chansen.  Thank you.

Hopefully now we can put this thread to bed, cover it with a mountain of covers, and hope it has a good long snooze.

Over and out to WC2....

Then we get into 'what's honest and defensible for someone might not be honest and defensible for someone else'. It's probably better to practice the 90 minute anger management rule. That is- if feeling really ticked off, go away for 90 minutes and when you come back to it you will, if not feeling less ticket off which, in most cases, you probably will realize it's not such a huge deal, at least be able to respond more patiently.

Hi chansen

I completely agree with this assessment.

This has become routine and clearly it is an exercise which benefits no one.  Not even Dcn.Jae.  If it was even remotely helpful or healing then any injury it seeks to mend would have been dealt with years ago.  Instead it is injurious to community and to Dcn.Jae himself.  

He is entitled to his feelings.  He has chosen to weaponize them rather than resolve them.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Sorry Gecko. I guess I was posting at the same time as you.

And what good does it do to weaponize them right back? Someone has to suck it up and take the high road in order to build a better relationship going forward. I notice with Jae and others- even if they're being difficult- if you focus on their good qualities and ignore the pain in the butt ones or joke them off in a sensitive understanding way- you actually bring out the better qualities. Jae won't react well to scolding because that's where he sees (I think) the injustice and/ or misunderstanding of his personality in the first place.

Not everyone's the same and reacts the same way to the same thing- nor should we all be.

Hi Kimmio,

Who is advocating that?

Someone does.  Someone chooses not to.  That is part of the routine.

There is some truth in that.  It completely ignores the responsibility of the one being difficult and puts all of the onus on the ones on the receiving end.  Which is unjust and unhealthy.

Learned behaviour is very much at the root of this.  That behaviour will not change until the results sought are no longer an outcome.

There is probably some truth in that also.  Of course so long as he has anyone championing him as the victim he has confirmation that he is being bullied.  So long as he gets that he has no reason to change.  He has what he wants, proof that he is being treated unjustly.

Why does he want that proof?  Because it absolves him of any need to take responsibility for what he posts or how he behaves.  So long as there are members willing to take his side and go after those he attacks  he will continue to repeat the pattern.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi Kimmio,

Which is true.

That doesn't mean that there are no healthy or unhealthy ways to react.

You can dig holes or you can fill them in.

Continuing to dig a hole in no way fills it up.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Nope, shitty accusations are shitty accusations. 90 minutes later, and they're still shitty accusations that the targets shouldn't have to put up with. When someone wants to throw stones and then claim victim status when they get called on it, don't buy it. Feed ducks, not martyr complexes.

I take his side because I've gotten to know that beneath the sometimes difficult behaviour he's a good guy with a generous heart- and like all of us- he has challenges that we wouldn't understand without making the effort to get to know them a bit. I perceive that if someone feels bullied in this place- it is probably also being triggered by experiences they bring with them from elsewhere in their lives- so a little extra compassion is in order, IMO.

That's brutal. Straight up- no room for compromise or compassion or digging beneath the surface, eh? And there was no individual target in this thread post- just a general vent, right or not it's how he feels. Pinga made Jae the target of scathing and injurious remarks. Not a good way to heal anything- on her part either. That makes things worse. Might feel good to her to say it but it won't mend anything. I don't have a whole lot of respect for how you or her react to some of the most vulnerable people here. Not everyone's in the same place, on a level playing field in life. You take no account of that when dealing with individuals. I try to.

Hi Kimmio,

Why take any side?

Is bad behaviour only bad behaviour in those we choose not to side with?

A little extra compassion is probably never out of place.

That said, shouldn't that compassion extend equally to all?  Since when does being bullied elsewhere turn into a permission to behave badly here?

Grace and peace to you.

John

piranha need love too