Well chemgal, just ask me - after three weeks I'm an expert on all things Canadian!  

The best thing about Toronto is that it's the only Canadian city I didn't get lost in. It's a remarkably easy city to find your way around.

As cities go, it's not that attractive visually - although I did like the Toronto Islands.

BUT, it's the gateway to Five Oaks - and the first city I visited in Canada.

As such, I'll always have a soft spot for "Tah-rono".

Actually lots of us Toronto folks say it  "tranna"  Kind of depends where you live and if you were born here, at least it seems that way to me.

I totally love Toronto.  I dont' find it a cold big city.  Did your friened have a bad time?   Sure sounds like it, but I would' doubt that was because of toronto, more likely because teenage kids anywhere can be a hard crowd to break into.  No one seems as judgemental as a teenager who knows everything!

My kids feel safe here, the parks are wonderful.  the waterfront is great.  The beaches are swimmable.  The theater, ballet, opera, concerts......

The traffic is difficult and if you are not used to the highways, the speed and the volume it is daunting.  Yet when you grow up here and learn to drive here, as my kids, have it is just another road.

the upside to the traffic is you feel you can go anywhere and rent a car and not be overwhelmed.

Smog?  Humiidity?  Depends on the day and the time of year.  Sure we have some very hard to handle July days, hopefully they are mostly behind us now.  But they are the rare days.  The other 340 days a year are pretty good.  The lake keeps the snow to a minimum but 30 minutes away there is tons so you can enjoy winter sports without tons of shovelling.

If you want to experience it, come in the early spring or fall.  Stay for a week.  Do a ballet, a couple of plays, a concert.  Eat food from all over the world.  shop till you drop at cheap Kensington or expensive Yorkville.  Have a blast

Toronto, like most big cities, is in my "nice to visit but don't want to live there" file. It's not pollution or crime (Toronto is actually in pretty good shape re. the latter and London is as bad or worse on the former). It's just that I find big cities hard to get around in and there's just too many people with too much going on. London is about my speed, as is K-W where I grew up. Hamilton, where I held my first job for almost 10 years, was okay size-wise but the pollution is hell if you live below the Mountain. Shanghai, my wife's hometown, has been given a bit of a exemption from my "no big cities" rule (they are now pushing 20,000,000 pop.) since I have family there and have enjoyed watching it "grow up" over the 15 years that I've been travelling to China. However, I still doubt that I'd actually enjoy living there fulltime.

I do concede that if you want lots to do, TO beats anything else in Southern Ontario. Museums, opera, ballet, several orchestras, Broadway-quality stage shows, concerts, professional sports, and so on. TO has it all. Even specialty bookshops that would almost certainly fail in any smaller city. Hamilton's saving grace for me was its proximity to Toronto since it was easy to go there for an evening or afternoon to visit friends or attend an event (if you time your trip right or use the train, you can technically do downtown Hamilton to downtown TO in 45-60 minutes). From London, downtown TO is pretty much 2 hours which makes anything less than a day not worth the drive.

Mendalla

I lived in Toronto for two years and I loved it.  The only thing that it is missing is an ocean.  I love the subway, the parks, the restaurants, museums.  I found the people there, while not quite as friendly as maritimers, to be friendly.  I loved that there are people living there from all over the world and you can experience so many different cultures without leaving the city.  The transit system is easy to use and great.  And like Pilgrim said, you cannot get lost.

TO was the nearest big cit growing up. My mom was born there and lived there until mrriage.

Could I live there? NO

Too big, too many people -takes too long to get out into nature

I can and do enjoy a few days there every 10 years or so!

I liked living in Toronto even more than living in Montreal or Ottawa.  Their transit system was the best, and why go to McGill when you can go to York, or U of T, or Ryerson, etc.

 I was the one debating Jae in the other thread. I should point out that I never said I disliked Toronto (although, yes, I poked fun at the "thrill" of going up the CN Tower to see the roofs of the skyscrapers.) As I pointed out, I was born and raised in Toronto, have friends and family in Toronto and enjoy visiting Toronto. I simply quibbled with this "world class city" stuff that Toronto's politicians and newspapers keep spewing out, my point being that world class cities (whatever that means) don't need to continually tell people that they're "world class cities," and eventually it comes across like an irritating little kid saying "am too!" 'cause he wants to play with the older kids but isn't big enough.

So, let me list some of the things I like about Toronto, so that Jae realizes I really do like the place, in no particular order:

Bluffers Park

The Royal Ontario Museum

The Ontario Art Gallery

High Park

The Grid System (which, as others have noted, makes it almost impossible to get lost - one of the most understandable street grids of any big city I've been in)

The University of Toronto (alumni)

York University (alumni)

Chinatown

The Pacific Mall (ok, it's in Markham - but only because it's on the wrong side of Steeles Avenue)

The Toronto Zoo

Downtown (I really like Toronto's downtown compared to most other big city downtowns I've been to)

Various cultural festivals

Unbelievable variety of foods/restaurants

The Danforth

The Boardwalk

The Maple Leafs (I know; I'm a glutton for punishment!)

The Underground

OK - now to be fair, here's what I don't like about Toronto:

Pearson Airport (how lovely it is to live closer to Buffalo Airport - not as busy and you can get cheaper flights if you're flying to the US - and, of course, if you're flying within Canada there's Hamilton Airport)

The traffic (every time I go to any big American city, I get warned about the traffic. I've yet to be in a big American city that has worse traffic than Toronto)

Scarborough (that's where I was born and raised so I feel I can comment - it was never "beautiful" but it seems to have gone way downhill in the last 20 years with a lot more poverty and a lot more violence)

The lakefront (I like walking the Boardwalk, but overall the Toronto lakefront is not that nice. As I said in the other thread, Toronto needs to learn from Chicago how to develop an urban lakefront)

City Hall (might have been an exciting design at one time; now it's dull and Nathan Phillips Square is basically a huge hunk of concrete with a skating rink in it; no green space - although I understand there are improvements being made)

Parking Prices (yes, you can park at some subway stations fairly inexpensively and take the TTC, which - in spite of recent media criticism - I've always found fairly reliable, although I'm not on it that often now)

Whiny politicians (that's the "world class city" stuff and other things - like during the blizzard when Mel Lastman asked for the army to help. I had no problem with him asking for the army's help - Halifax got it after the hurricane and no one made fun of them - but I was in Northern Ontario at the time and it was about -40 and heard Mel on TV talk about how "cold" it was - it was -10 at worst in Toronto at the time)

So there's a lot more I like than dislike about Toronto. I just quibble with and am sick of the "world class city" stuff. It comes across to me as a total lack of self-confidence.

Well. I'll always love Toronto for spawning the best rock band EVAR!!!!

                                                                      RUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ladies and gentlemen.....the Professor, Mr.Neil Peart (the best drummer EV-AR!!!!!)

I'm in TO and like any city it has a good side and bad side. Where I live in the east end is the only part I would live in, not moving anywhere west. I'm a country guy all the way. Even 5 minutes out of toronto is nice with corn fields and open bush.

I don't like congestion, too many people, crowds, and traffic in rush hour is going to make me blow a gasket too much! 

Although born in Ottawa and having lived in Montreal and the Maritimes, I have lived a good portion of my life in Toronto and area. I don't like going into Toronto. I find the traffic oppressive; the air dirty; the humidity, in summer, stifling. I would never choose to live there or in the surrounding area. Mind you, I am going to see the Jays. vs. Orioles next week (first base line balcony (section 219) tickets)

Here in London, we are almost at the halfway point between Pearson and Detroit-Wayne County International. My wife and I compare prices when we travel overseas and Delta (formerly Northwest) out of DTW generally wins on the fact that airport fees are lower and Delta/Northwest's own fees are lower and built into the airfare.

For US travel, it's a no-brainer - unless there's some kind of whopping big seat sale at either Air Canada or Westjet we fly with Delta or Spirit out of Detroit. Crossing the border on land is easier than in the airport and US domestic airfares are dirt cheap if you time things properly.

For domestic, there are a growing number of flights out of tiny London International and daily commuter flights (4 or 5 per day, I believe) to Pearson where you can then transfer to a flight anywhere in Canada.

We also have two excellent door to door airbus services that hit Pearson, Detroit and Hamilton.

So, the upshot is that in spite of not having a major airport ourselves, we essentially benefit from being proximate to two huge hubs, one American and one Canadian. Generally, it is cheaper to fly out of Detroit, but we also factor in flight times and how much hassle the extra layer of immigration will cause if we are flying overseas. Sometimes, Pearson wins on the latter factor.

Mendalla

What is it with conservative Christians and Rush? They are not, by any stretch of the imagination, a Christian band and yet you, my brother, and some other conservatives that I've come across love them. Are they just so damn good that their lack of Christian credentials isn't relevant?

FYI, I like Rush and agree on Peart but I'm not a die-hard fan or anything.

Mendalla

My mother grew up in Toronto and we had family there. I grew up in London, so we would take the train into TO and stay with my great-aunt, and do some shopping and such. We also would go into Toronto for concerts or special events. When you live in London and visit another part of Canada, or move to another part of Canada, you have to tell people you are not from Toronto, because many think that the entire southern Ontario area is TO.....well maybe it is. Toronto is the place we love to hate and hate to love sometimes.

I lived in Mississauga for two years and commuted into College and Spadina. It took me an hour and a half each way no matter what form of transportation I used. I was very glad to leave that life. People here only complain about the traffic here in front of me about once.

Toronto is a great citiy to visit. I am glad that I lived there for two years, and even gladder that I left. If I were to live in a city again, I think I'd pick Vancouver ....but I will never be able to afford to live in Kitsilano or Granville Island, so it won't happen!

Growing up in K-W in the seventies and eighties there was some speculation that the urban sprawl of the GTA would eventually reach us and that the whole urban mess would be effectively a single giant city. Hasn't happened yet and there's still plenty of green between Cambridge and TO along the 401 so I don't it happening soon. Of course, part of the reason for that is that the sprawl has been tending northwards as well as westwards. It's now pretty much solid urban and suburban development from TO harbour to Canada's Wonderland and rapidly moving north of that.

Mendalla

I enjoyed living in Toronto and spent some depressed months knowing that I was going to move back to BC where the mean education level was about grade 10. 

What I remember with fun, I enjoyed being able to shmooze in cafe's with eccentrics and normals both.  I enjoyed being taken seriously as an artist - so much so as to be feared by wives of artists ( they thought I would try to lure their artiste husbands away).  I enjoyed cycling around and around the city and /burbs.  I enjoyed the psychosis of the cyclists.  I enjoyed the bodies and hot sweaty days.  I enjoyed the humid cold winters which proved once and for all that Torontonians were spoiled namby pambies who would shrivel in the force of a real Canadian winter.  I loved the long fall.  I liked the sensivitiies.  I loved the ethnic neighbourhoods. 

But, I didn't live in a suburb and I didn't have to go to hate-filled highschools.  I didn't have to go home to the house of a screaming patriarch.  I didn't have to succumb to the will of  youth culture.  I didn't have to pretend to understand or enjoy the burbinites and their weird prejudices as they moved into the city with their perfectionisms and various projections suffered upon humanity from a combination of insecurity and lack of individuation.  I didn't have to put myself into uncomfortable social situations  because in Toronto, you can find a place to be comfortable.  You can also argue with people who make you uncomfortable and you can find those who will enjoy the arguement and argue back. 

The buildings were fun, the Sally Ann's also.  for me, that is.  I enjoyed the cycling so much because it was such a trip to go through the class systems like a river channeling.  The parks were fun.  Loved the graveyard.  Spent a lot of time meditating with gravestones. 

Then it was time to go home and back to people who think me stupid and a waste of space.  yay BC and Sasktatchewan-  woohoo!!!.  

Why I didn't stay is a complication of what was going on at "home".  I guess it was just the joy of living in a province that doesn't know democracy ( BC) and another one that can't wait to hand it back to the rightful corporations,  money lenders & Catholic league and education institutions  ( the other place) .  yah, that must have been it. 

Northwind

the reason that you can't move to Vancouver is exactly that you can't move to Vancouver.  Vancouver died.  Ask any Vancouverite who has lived their for more than a couple of decades --   they will tell you.  What is there now is wierd combustion of Dubai and Calgary. 

Well, that is likely true jlin. I have vague memories of my first visit to Vancouver in the 70's. I have even seen changes in the city in the past ten years that I have been in BC. Bottom line it is too rich for my blood.

Mendalla, it seems that Toronto has expanded to the Hamilton and Niagara areas. I know there is green space along the way, but it sure seems like one big city from Toronto to Niagara these days.

But Rush is not a Satatnic band by any stretch of the imagination either. The reason I like Rush is because they are excellent musicians and Neil Peart constantly blows my mind with his brilliance, both lyrically and as a drummer. For me, their lack of Christian credentials is not an issue because they certainly are not hostile toward faith as say Morbid Angel and Marilyn Manson are. Neil just happens to write some lyrics questioning faith and that certainly is not enough for me not to listen to them.

At the first "hail Satan" though, I might have a different opinion. But I think I am safe.

 Hubby and I prefer to avoid Toronto, if at all possible, but we have to work there twice a year, staying for a week at a time.  This has been for the past 10-12 years.

What I dislike about Toronto is the traffic, getting around the place is limited by the "rush hours" which take up 7-9 am and 3-7 pm, each and every day, its worse on Fridays and better on Saturdays.  That's 6 hours a day that MUST be avoided.  The big cities in the U.S. do not have anywhere near the horrible traffic conditions as Toronto.  I include Montreal, Chicago, Atlanta & New York in that assessment, having driven thru all of them.  

I also find the people to be rather rude and sometimes downright unfriendly.  While walking in a mall or downtown street, I am constantly literally run over by people rushing by, nearly knocking me down, without even a passing "Sorry" as they careen headlong into the next unfortunate person in their very important path.  

The streetcars are practically silent, no one will talk to anyone else.  Also, everyone is in such a rush!  Geez, I live in cottage country, and the vibe here changes every weekend as the Torontonians bring their rush hours frustrations with them.  The TO parking is not only extremely difficult to find, but incredibly expensive.  The sidewalks are covered with store merchandise, why isn't it in the store?  The air pollution is next to unbearable.

What I like about Toronto are the restaurants, entertainment/events, unlimited shopping and museums/galleries.  Downtown is marginally friendlier, with various areas having distinct local flavour.  And it is easy to navigate.

Having spent time in Toronto, Montreal, Fredericton and Halifax, plus Florida, New York & Michigan, I personally would put  Toronto at the very bottom of that list.

I would add Detroit, Buffalo, Washington and Miami to your list - having driven through all of them. I haven't been to the West Coast of the U.S. so can't comment on Los Angeles.

Frankly, I think that statement is akin to libel. The Toronto-people I know are considerate and cordial.

I became aware of a phenomenon of sidewalk rage when I was in Toronto. Everyone is in such a rush and the sidewalks are so crowded. Also, there seems to be no "keep to the right" or "keep to the left" rule, so you bump into people all over. Very frustrating and rather unfriendly.

When I went to Vancouver the first time after I moved to this province I was struck by the different pace of the city. When the Toronto subway stops, everyone ERUPTS out of the cars. When the Vancouver Skytrain stops, people flow out of it at a much more civilized pace.

Certainly the people I met and knew in my day to day life were friendly. Out on the streets though.......and entirely different matter. And don't assume that a walk sign at the interesection actually means it is safe to cross.

Its because when you visit a city its different then actually living there day by day. Its kind of impossible to be down town and not feel some measure of the stress of big city living. Even when I go to the museum by subway I get stressed out. If you stop on a busy sidewalk at 8 am your seconds to get mown over by the insatiable onslaught of people heading to work. Or they scoot around you like a school of fish. Also stepping over the homeless guy holding a cup out.

Its also the constant increase of population and immigration. And it will get worse each year. They have to work in down town jobs.

Its the demand for the almighty dollar and the drive to succeed and make more and pay those enormous bills and the tax. Even Miller stated it, if you want to live in the city of Toronto your going to have to pay more for city services. More for your property, subsidize everthing social and it shows up on your taxes. .

Thats why I like the outskirts anywhere.... open road. I'm total suburban because I like giant box stores in open space areas.

On the plus side  I like going to Ontario place, and gardens etc.

I like it when We go up to a northern town in contrast and everyone is sssssslllllllllloooooowwww...............pace just walking along window shopping in the town of Meaford, or Brighton, or cobokonk,  or Gravenhurst. 

oui,

Toronto has changed since you were last there.

I was in Tah-ron-oh a month ago, and did a lot of walking, and not one person was rude to me.

Either that, or it was my Aussie accent! 

Frankly, I think that statement is akin to libel. The Toronto-people I know are considerate and cordial.

Well, jae, it is not libel. It was reality when I lived there. Perhaps you hang in a different area. You will note that I mentioned that the people I knew personally were friendly.

I think that's the key, actually. There are people who are perfectly cordial and polite to their own circle, but act like Darth Vader to the rest of the world. In a large city like TO, there's higher probability of being on the street with enough of these people to have a bad experience. Of course there are also plenty of people we pass who are always cordial and polite, but we don't tend to remember those encounters as much as the jack*** who pushed us or dumb*** driver who flipped us the bird and screamed at us even though we had legal right of way.

Mendalla

My son saw RUSH in concert in Sarnia, Ontario recently AND HE DIDN'T EVEN ASK ME TO GO ALONG.  Just for that, I'm not sharing my Rolling Stones CD's with him. Take that, son! LOL

I thought Gary Peterson of the Guess Who was the best drummer ever.  Can there be room for two best drummers?  Then, there's always Charlie Watts of the Rolling Stones, etc.  Yea, Neil Peart is quite good.

I grew up in Kingston and have lived (for more than 3 months, but less than 3 years) in : Vancouver, Mississauga, Ottawa and Montreal.

I now live in Mimico, which is part of South Etobicoke, which is part of (West) Toronto, which is part of the GTA.  It is just like Kingston (a lake, schools, groceries and restauants, safe streets) only connected to the world, literally, through my 24 hr./7 day streetcar, proximate freeways and abundant cycling paths.

If you hate TO, you don't know TO.  If you did know it, you'd know it to be a gathering of neighbourhoods and communities with people just like you, and totally different from you, who live and work in this collection of towns and villages the outside refers to as Toronto.

Growing up, I'd have "never lived in Toronto"; but being grown up I very much appreciate all it has to offer.  The smog? Whatever: there are now smog days in Kingston, too.

I know it's big and dirty and it's mother doesn't dress it properly, but if you give Toronto a chance, it's got a big heart.

The shopping's awesome, too.

and Larry Mullins, Jr. is the best drummer ev-ah.

 Pilgrims Progress, I was in Toronto a couple of months ago, sorry, it hasn't changed that fast, lol!  I'm glad you had a good experience.

Sidewalk and mall rage is a reality so bad, that one day as hubby and I were walking along downtown, I got knocked about so many times, hubby said that was enough.  So we switched sides, and being a big guy, 6'2" and broad shouldered, he simply braced himself when the next one slammed into him.  Well, the other person went spinning as if they had hit a brick wall, looking totally bewildered.  There was quite a bit of snickering from other passersby.

After reading this wonderful sentence, all I can say is there is simply nothing more to say about Toronto - it says it all!

I lived in Toronto for 5 years in the ‘80’s. There was lots I loved about it and sometimes think I could live there again – I love the many neighbourhoods, the diversity, the ease of public transport, the arts and culture scene, and being relatively close to a whole lot of everything. However, while living there we spent a lot of time trying to get out to be in nature (enjoyed High Park and walking along the lake but …..) and I really, really disliked the traffic and how long it took to get around and how long it took to get out of the busy-ness and bigness of the city. We happily moved to Vancouver in 1990 – I have to say it’s a pretty spectacular place to live. Not sure what you mean jlin that “Vancouver died”. I have certainly seen changes in the past 20 years, but for the most part it’s a pretty great place to be.

I am puzzled Oui by your experience on sidewalks in Toronto.  I dont' think I have ever been bumped unless I am one of hundreds making my way down the stairs and onto the subway.  that is unfortunate that you had that experience. 

The only reason I cna think of is that perhaps us torontonians move on the sidewalks with the flow of people.  Kind of like changing lanes with the traffic to keep moving.  I wasn't aware that I do this but i might unconsciously.

I certainly find the traffic a pain.  After living here for almost 30 years i can definately see more traffic.  Tons of commuters drive into the city daily and you don't want to be caught up in it.  Other roads have become worse for traffic for sure.  Summer construction is a bear and the current focus on eliminating driving lanes to add bike lanes only makes it worse.  Sad really.  Biking is important but in a city where biking is not pracitcal for 6 months of the year it is a waste of space.

I see one women bike year round near me.  From November to april, the roads are a mess of piles of snow that doesn't get moved and piles of salt and sand that mess with her tires.  The cold, the wind, the rain the snow.  ALl combine to give the city very few bikers for close to half the year.

The best part of Toronto is the neighbourhoods for sure.  Little Italy, with all the Italian shos adn restaurants, china town, Little Ethiopia, Greek Twon, Bloor west with its ukrainians, Queen west with it's punks, yorkville with it sexpensive shops, the grament district, the grange, Kensington, the Beach,  Mimico,  the list goes on.

Most people with the exception of perhaps working downtown, live in their neighbourhoods which opperate quite like small towns in atmosphere

 sexpensive, that's a term I haven't heard of before lastpointe