CAFE LITE

PS...this is my FIRST ever topic on WC.  I've responded to other threads, but never before created one of my own - I'm so excited!  (Doesn't take much to amuse me obviously!)

Hi Artemisia -- it's great to see your topic!

That's a connundrum isn't it?  When the language has remained patriarchal for such an important statement, it makes it hard to agree with integrity. 

I suppose what I would do is try to realize you are responding not to the wording, but to the intent. 

At the time the Order of Ministry was developed, I'm guessing there was no other language (it's a little strange the wording hasn't changed yet).  It was a different world.  It might help to contemplate the nature of the father/son relationship in antiquity, especially in common law whereby the son was regarded as a "father in training" and inherited all the responsibilites and properties of the Father. 

Maybe this route could yield more meaning than our more modern understandings since it was the basis for the translations at the time.

I would try not to see this as a barrier to your calling.  Stumble over the word, grit your teeth and "in spirit" agree (as I'm sure many others have done). 

Just my two cents.

Thanks ninj.  Good point about responding to the intent, and not to the wording.  I'm definitely not letting this stop me, just hoping to find some way to answer "yes" without crossing my spiritual fingers behind my back! lol  My minister friend says she justifies saying it as not meaning exclusively Father.  Maybe I am just frustrated that the UCC still hasn't moved away from that patriarchal language, so am making it a bigger deal than it needs to be.  As you say, I'm sure many before me have done the "grin and bear it" thing, no doubt I can too!

.....or switch and become UU

Except I think I'm too much of a Jesus freak to be UU!   (Not as son of God though, more as the epitome of the Divine within).

ninjafaery - do you know if UU's baptisms, confirmations, etc are recognized by other denominations, such as RC and Anglican?  (Just curious, since I understand the main reason UCC continues to use the words God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit is because of our ecumenical relationships...i.e. so that our sacraments are recognized by our ecumenical partners.)

I'm open to others coming to God in whatever way is right for them.  I just chafe at restrictive language that defines God in narrow terms, and doesn't allow us all to experience the Spirit in our own way.  The Father imagery doesn't hold meaning for me personally, but I know it does for others and to each their own.

(Just thought I'd clarify that...my thoughts often come out in disjointed bits and pieces when they are around issues I am sorting my way through...I suspect that is due to my ADD.  Is certainly one of the reasons I rarely, if ever, post on the public R&F forum!)

(Just thought I'd clarify that...my thoughts often come out in disjointed bits and pieces when they are around issues I am sorting my way through...I suspect that is due to my ADD.  Is certainly one of the reasons I rarely, if ever, post on the public R&F forum!)

Happens to me too, all the time.  I get perceived as vague and wishy washy, but it's actually all coming together in my head eventually!

Not sure if UU baptisms, confirmations etc. are recognized by other denominations.  Mendalla would know though.

We don't baptize or confirm in the Christian sense so there's nothing really to be recognized. If my family does eventually join the UCC, we'd have to have my wife and son baptized since neither were born and raised Christian.

For babies/young children, we generally have a naming (sometimes called a dedication) service for the child. This can be part of a service or done privately. We haven't had any in my fellowship for a while, but one of our regulars is pregnant, so I suspect our new minister will be doing one shortly after his arrival this fall.

As for confirmation, not all UU churches I've been to have anything corresponding to Confirmation (I think we should, though) but the ones that I've seen are basically a teen-oriented version of our "Building Your Own Theology" curriculum, in which each participant develops a "creed" reflecting where they currently are on their religious journey.

None of this, however, ties to membership as baptism and confirmation do in the UCC. Membership in our fellowships is through signing a membership and agreeing to adhere to the principles. That applies to those raised in our ranks as well as newcomers.

I wish you all the best on the journey that you're undertaking, Artemesia. I know one person who went that road and she ended up not seeking ordination, but who knows where your path will lead?

Mendalla

Thanks Mendalla!  I've felt a calling growing ever stronger over the past couple years, but the discernment period is a time for all (me included) leave behind preconceived notions, listen for the voice of God and allowing the Spirit to lead where it will.  A strange concept...entering into a period to discern my call to ministry, which period requires me to leave behind my notions of where I am called to be!  I am doing my best to keep myself open, but...oh, my heart is singing a song of ordained ministry.

Really interesting stuff about UU, sounds wonderfully inclusive.  I believe there is a UU church in Halifax, I must drive in some Sunday and share in worship there.

There is, indeed, a UU church there: http://www.uuch.ca/. It's in a nice old building on Inglis. We used to go there during the 2 years my wife (then fiancee) taught at Dal.

Mendalla

Ah yes, I know exactly where it is now!  Have walked past it on many a lunch hour (I work in the city, but live half hour or so out in the boonies.)   I found a page on their website where Rev. Julie Denny-Hughes explains her understanding of ministry - I love these lines:

"Ministry is whatever it takes to get all of us from where we are to being the joyous, loving and fearless people we deserve to be: People who celebrate each other and the inner-most reaches of our own hearts. People who are empowered to change the world."

What a wonderful, empowering and affirming statement.

I believe in God as Father...absolutely.

Male and Female is simply a role. A part of who we are, for now. We are all human. We are all equal. But we are not all the same. There is nothing disparinging about being different.

God is Father, because that is the role he plays.

Earth is Mother, because that is the role she plays.

The Earth served as the womb in which Adam was formed, and the Spirit of God was placed in that form, like the seed of man fertilizing an embreo.

But as far as viewing God as a man... he is not a man, therefore, you can only go so far in the assignment of gender. God is Spirit. He merely serves in the role of Father when looking at the type of male/female roles among created life on earth.

However, we can say he become a man....  in the form of Jesus Christ. That was one manifestation of God.

That was one manifestation of God.

That's my understanding.  That assigning gender roles to a power we can't begin to fathom is only a way to tell the story of Love.  This story moves and changes according to  time and culture.

A manifestation of paternal attributes reflects a time and culture.  IMO.

Ninja - you say that you "get perceived as vague and wishy washy", but I think it all comes together very well.  You often offer words similar to the ones that are being mulled in my own head.  thanks.

God is Spirit.  I agree wholeheartedly with that statement.  Although I don't think of God in terms of "He", or as serving exclusively in the role of Father when in relationship with humanity.  God is, for me, completely genderless, even in relationship with humanity.  For me, God is...God, Spirit, Creator, that presence ever around and within us...but neither He nor She (or maybe encompassing all of both).  Thanks for sharing your thoughts, CityofGod and ninjafaery, they have been helpful.  I am reminded that God serves in many roles, that of father, mother, brother, sister, friend...depending on where we are in our faith journeys, and in our lives and cultures.  Certainly to step out in ministry, I will need to be mindful of where others are in their faith journeys, and not just of where I find myself.

 I am reminded that God serves in many roles, that of father, mother, brother, sister, friend...depending on where we are in our faith journeys, and in our lives and cultures. 

This is certainly true.
God serves in many loving, support roles. Since both male and female came out of God, he must surely contain the qualities of both. He is not truly male or female, in the traditional gender forms we think of in the physical creation.

However... for the purposes of relating God to others, and in my own personal thoughts and prayers, I use the term Father. That is, after all, the terminology Jesus used. Therefore, I assume it serves a purpose, which is good enough for me- whether I fully understand it or not.

God is not truly a man, but Spirit, and has both male and female qualities. This is good for philisophical discussion about the nature of God, and is every bit the truth, but in my religious conversation, I basically stick with Father. I'm kind of stubborn that way. Jesus did it. It's good enough for me. That may be simplistic, but I try to stick as close as I can to the best living example we ever had.

Not that I feel threatened by other ways of viewing God.

Blessings!!!

Perhaps that's what we need as humans -- a meaningful face to give to Love. 

If that Love has the face of a Father, and that's how one can readily envision what Love looks like, then it's helpful.  Traditionally (just throwing ideas out there), Fathers were "the Boss" -- the ones who had the final say, the Protectors, the Providers, Shepherds, Judges etc. 

I believe in God.

I also think that in this present Age of Reason we are overly concerned with definitions.

As such, I tend to see God in  a way that  seems to suggest contradictions.

I don't see God as human - He is a Creator that encompasses all that is. He is everywhere- from a grain of sand, the depth of the ocean, and in all our hearts everytime we experience love.

(As I don't see Him as human I don't personally get hung up on the sex thing - I tend to say "he" from force of habit. Other's disagree, and I don't have a problem with that.)

Now here's the contradiction.

Although I don't see God as human, I'm perfectly happy to relate to Him as human.

That's because I'm human, and as such, it's the only way we humans know how to relate.

I communicate with Him in times of fear and doubt. I communicate with Him in times of happiness and gratitude.

God is the Other in my life. Everywhere I go, He shares the journey with me.

I confess there's moments when He seems to disappear. But the despair that I then feel is soon replaced by the experience of love and connection which reaffirms His presence.

I think I'll end by contradicting myself - and giving God a definition. It was given to me as a small child in Sunday School on a little ticket I had to memorise.

God is Love.

This is what I answered "I do, by the grace of God" to (at my baptism a little over three years ago)

Do you believe in God, Source of love;

in Jesus Christ, love incarnate;

and in the Holy Spirit, love's power?

Pilgrim, that is a statement I can sing wholeheartedly - God is Love!

StevieG, that is the same language we use in my church for baptisms and I could sincerely offer the same response you did.  Alas, the ordination format is laid out in the UCC Manual's by-laws and cannot be modified, as I understand it...so the question will be asked exactly as posted at the top.

I'm really just trying to find some understanding around the Father image that will resonate with me enough to answer yes with integrity if (when, God willing!) the time comes.  Because I don't have any paternalistic traditions in either my life or my faith journey that make that imagery meaningful to me personally.

But through this group discussion, I think I will be able to answer yes in the context of ministry.  That is, even though my own faith journey has led me to a different understanding, answering yes can be an acknowledgement that speaking a common language breaks down barriers.  So if I enter ministry, I can use that language as a way of opening up deeper discussion and to keep faith conversations meaningful for others.  Thanks everyone for helping me sort through this!

I was just remembering a time when I would go for walks with Jesus (yes, I've always been weird).  For some reason, he looked like Kenny Loggins in the '80's.  (well, it was the '80's).  It added something.  As a younger woman, I guess part of that love metaphor for me was the Gentle Lover. Very effective teacher at the time.

Don't you think it would be misleading to give accent to such a dogma? OK there is a gender issue, but what about the giant TRINITY in the room? It seems kinda like selling your soul, but justifying it by telling others to read the fine print between the lines of your agreement. By the way, I am also struggling with the idea of becoming an ordained minister in the UCC. I know that there are many ministers that have grit their teeth through such ceremonies, but once on the other side, what have they done to make it easier for those that would come after?

onewman, I don't see my rationalizations as selling my soul, although am not at all bothered if you view it as such, we all see through different lenses.

(Some days my own lenses are rose coloured, some days they are shades!  )   

But I am personally unwilling to allow this one question to prevent me from moving forward and (I hope) making a difference in the world through ministry.  I still want to respond as faithfully as possible though.  I know the language of the question is in part tied to our belonging to an ecumenical community, which is something I value, so that will no doubt be part of my justification.  As I answer, I may hold in my heart these words from our Song of Faith:

As for those who have gritted their teeth before me...I would say without hesitation that a great many of those ministers have made it easier...I just think change comes slowly in matters of faith, as each generation seeks new understanding and tries to express that faith in terms meaningful to them.  The UCC Song of Faith is one example of that change.  And certainly the New Creed (especially after the 1980 amendments to make its language more inclusive) is a very different affirmation of faith than the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed.  Surely the New Creed was written by those who gritted their teeth each time they proclaimed the older creeds.

I agree, the Trinity is definitely a topic worthy of discussion - so if you want to start a thread, I may well join in.  It wasn't my focus for this thread though, I was thinking specifically about Father imagery.

I wish you all the best in your own struggles around the idea of ministry.  I struggled for a couple years until the feeling of being called grew strong enough that it became impossible to ignore.  My soul sings with joy at the journey before me - I am actually getting way ahead of myself by looking at the ordination ceremony already!  That won't come for a few more years since I'll have to get my MDiv after my official discernment period is finished (assuming discernment doesn't lead me in another direction, which is always a possibility and I keep reminding myself to remain open to going wherever the Spirit leads!  But so far I, and my discernment team, feel that it is leading to ministry.)

I'm just wondering if this issue is a microcosm of attitudes found in congregations in varying degrees.  I'm guess there are a few stumbling blocks to reconcile.  That would seem to be the case here at Wondercafe too.  Such a spectrum of opinion.

Follow your heart!

It's not quite the same, but I think I've unconsciously learned to "translate" some of these sticky ideas and words to redeem them, and understand that some of it is generational or cultural. 

I agree ninja, I can't imagine all Christians will ever be on the same page with this one!  Which makes sense since God is far too infinite and mysterious to ever be encapsulated in any one person's (or even denomination's) understanding.  We all experience God in our own way, and most of us are influenced by cultural and generational factors.

 "Follow your heart! "  Thanks, I'm following as fast as I can!!  Which isn't actually all that fast... I sent my request to Presbytery a month ago, am still waiting for them to sign off and assign their person(s) to my discernment committee (argh!) 

By the way - my mother-in-law got a huge kick out of the possibility that her atheist son will be married to a minister...she thought that was too funny and ironic for words!  My husband is very encouraging of my decision to pursue ministry though, and thrilled that I find so much joy and passion and comfort and enrichment in my faith.  He's already talking about selling our house in preparation for me having my own pastoral charge one day.  I am blessed to have such a supportive partner.

My first response to this question is no. Then I read all the responses here. Now I probably could answer yes. God is the father....and mother, and grandmother, and grandfather, and sister, and friend.........I cannot limit god to a male image. I guess that comes from growing up female in a patriarchal world.

Years ago I attended a Baptist church. Part of the liturgy included reciting something like "Father we praise you, Father we _____ you, Father we glorify your name" (I can't remember the middle one) I had a huge problem reciting that and usually stayed silent during that. Now this was a congregation where only men could be deacons, pass the collection plate or the communion plates. The only time women were involved in the service was on Women's Sunday. Men were elevated above women. Then someone from McMaster University (their theology school) came and preached. He spoke of how being Christ-like was not necessarily being male, and that we needed to recognize that it also includes the qualities he had that are traditionally thought of as being female traits: empathy, compassion, etc. His argument was that unless women were fully involved in the church, we would be missing a significant part. I decided then, that I could not belong to a church that did not ordain women. I did not care if it was a man or a woman in the pulpit. I just needed to know that women could be called too.

I know that my view of a male god is wrapped up in a lot of personal experiences and probably "issues". I guess that makes me human. If saying God the Father limits God to a male only view, then no, I cannot say it. If it is one view of God then I can say yes. We cannot limit God.

I like the scene in the movie Lady Jane, when Jane (Helena Bonham Carter) is confronted by the Bishop (another great actor whose name I cannot now recall), who demands to know if she believes in transubstantiation: after all, he reasons, Christ said "This is my body." Jane replies, "He also said, I am the vine; I am the door.... Was he a vine?... a door?"

Jesus introduced many astounding, challenging, new ways of thinking about God and living the faith. Over the centuries we have turned them into boxes and hat-hooks.  When I think of God as Father, I imagine the Prodigal Father from Jesus' parable:  prodigious in love, acceptance, reconciliation (and parties).