CAFE LITE

Hi Pilgrim, I like your thoughts. I will have to ponder them a bit. I feel a little illiterate right now. I wanted to acknowledge your post.

I personally do not believe a physical resurrection, or even a historical Jesus is necessary. The message is what is important. I read The Pagan Christ some time ago, and it seems to me that Harpur made a good case for this.

I am going to go over to the animal shelter to walk a dog this afternoon. I will think about this when I am walking and see what I come up with.

Well Haaaoowdy Pilgrim. That was my best John Wayne impersonation. So anyways, very cool that you are using personal experience to understand a doctrinal issue. Kudos.

 Visitation dreams eh? Good place to start. When my distant grandmother died many years ago, it was quite hard for me to grieve or understand the loss, I was fourteen at the time. Years later after becoming a christian, around the age of 20, I had just such a visitation dream. I was in my grandma's garage, she appeared to me and she was very happy, she pointed to the corner and there was a pile of bones there.....her bones, skull and all! I understood that I needed to pick them up, so I stacked them like firewood in my arms, then she gave me a big hug as both of our eyes welled with joyful tears. End of dream.Sounds scary, but it was one of the most joyful dreams I have ever had.

So anyways, who says what's real and what's not. Did Jesus "really" rise from the dead? Many scholars today are claiming that they do not believe in a "literal physical resurrection", that is a lot different than not believeing in any resurrection isn't it? When we read the story of an angel appearing to Joseph in a dream, do we understand that as Joseph simply believeing that he "dreamed" that an angel appeared to him? Or did an angel truly visit him? How does it change anything?, except maybe that God could be showing us that his action is not limited to our waking reality.

Again, this dream issue is really  a good starting place as I think that most of modern christianity has lost the mystical component of faith. Do we remember the story of Solomon, rembered by many as the wisest man who ever lived? How did he become so wise? Was it not because he chose wisdom from God instead of earthly treasures? and didn't this whole conversation between Solomon and God take place in a dream? Yes, it was in a dream.(1Kings3).

Whether we believe this story or not, that doesn't change the fact that the person who wrote that story was totally convinced that God could carry on a discussion with somebody in a dream. So, would that be a real conversation, or simply a dreamed conversation? I think you see my point here. I think that it is possible that a physical, literal resurrection could have been drummed up by those who considered this a necessary proof for their religious beliefs. I can also see how the giant dogmatic-pre-trib-post millenial-new jerusalem-saints on horses in the sky-type belief system depends on just such a literal, bodily resurrection.

I came from fundamentalist christianity, and I slowly and painfully have worked my way to the liberal end of the spectrum. I did this through careful study of historical, textual, and grammatical issues within the new testament. From my studies, I would say that there is something fishy about a physical resurrection, and I don't think that the idea necessarily started with Jesus himself, I would guess it did not.

Sightings of Jesus after crucifixion? Maybe visions? what is a vision, have you ever had one? I think that this would be a good question to anyone who would downplay this possibility. I would guess that they had never experienced a vision. And conversely I doubt that someone who has experienced such a vision would deny that they are powerful enough to inspire the disciples to to the things they did.

Mysticism. It's where it's at. IMHO of course.

Well, haaaoowdy to you, onewman, - it's always a pleasure to meet a fellow mystic!

My faith is something I experience, rather than believe.

I can honestly say that, without having a spiritual/mystical experience, I would call myself an agnostic - that's how important it was to me.

It simply wasn't enough for me to:

1. believe in the Bible - whether literal or metaphorical

2. to follow Jesus's example and try and live as one of the Kingdom.

Thus, for me, it was the catalyst for my faith.

As such, I do believe in resurrection. Not of Jesus ascending into Heaven - but of humans here on Earth being changed, or, "born again".

This is what's happened to me since my spiritual experience.

I now exist on two levels.

One level is about feeling connected to God, my neighbour (everyone), nature and the cosmos in it's entirety. I am a unique part of a glorious whole. The emotion I feel is love.

The other level is feeling disconnected - lost in the clamouring needs of my pesky ego. This happens everytime I experience conflict with another. It doesn't seem to matter if I think I'm in the right, or if I've won the argument. The emotion I feel is fear.

I  feel I now understand what Jesus meant when he preached about the Kingdom of God.

Using my terminology - it's about living on the level feeling connected to God, everyone, nature and the cosmos. We ARE a unique part of a glorious whole.

We KNOW when we're living on that level - there is an overwhelming sense of love in our hearts.

So much is written about faith, but in the end it comes down to this question, "Is God (love) in your heart?"

 Very interesting approach to this topic, Pilgrims Progress, I like it.  I have been visited by my deceased Mother and Grandmother, in vision. I guess no one really knows, or ever will, what actually happened way back then.

I don't personally believe in a bodily resurrection.  I do think something very powerful happened.  I have wondered, because Jesus seemed to be an extremely highly developed spiritual person, if he managed to briefly "bridge" the physical world and the spiritual world together for a short period.  

Maybe he was able to demonstrate/illustrate what happens to all of us when we leave this Earth, and he tried to show his followers.  Did he pull two different dimensions together?  Did he find or create a "worm hole" in space/time?

oui,

I agree that Jesus was "an extremely highly developed spiritual person".

But, because I see him as human, I don't think he was able to bridge the physical and spiritual world.

I was thinking more about the "sightings" of Jesus after his death.

I now think we're meant to understand the resurrection as a metaphor - rather than an actual physical event.

Once we understand Jesus's message about living as part of the Kingdom of God we are metaphorically reborn. We yearn to live a life of love.

As happened with the disciples, this being born again often coincides with the suffering encountered by losing someone we loved.

In that sense, God gives the one who has died - and the one still living who loved them -eternal life.

It is love that is eternal.