I would not like to see the pain that besh went through in "when is a david not a person" be totally for nothing. (and I believe that he did indeed feel pain and frustration, even if it was of his own making)

So, I'd like to resurrect the following from that exchange and invite anyone to share their ideas:

Besh asked: How will you get into heaven? What's the point of your religion at all?

and I replied (I've reorganized a bit, if anyone happens to go back to the original)

[quote=GoldenRule]

The Catholic church's recent woes are just part of a broader problem. Western churches have been reduced to an irrelvance of which their declining and aging membership  is only a sympton.

This isn't terribly "new" of course, but for me, it pretty much sums up the crux of the debate that generally divides the so-called  traditional and emerging paradigms of Christianity.

Rather than interpret our relationship with God through Scripture, Jesus shows repeatedly that we have to interpret Scripture through our relationship with God. And that we must see that relationship as extending to all.

Traditional education is moribund, and our province will soon be overflowing with schools not of literacy, but of ecology—if the word can be correctly applied to what is really arrant dogmatism. As scientific discoveries are continually distorted, misapplied, and aggrandized, and fear of Climate Change grows, not only teachers, but also the B.C. government espouses “Social Responsibility” to an ever greater degree. On paper, it sounds great.

All that I am really sure of is that some Creative Force, with some intelligent intent began with the creation of our Universe. Now that I have said this, I even wonder if I am stuck in "time talk", and this universe was always there, "unfolding as it should". However, the idea that it moves towards a higher level of complexity over time has also stuck with me, indicating some kind of "intent" or "direction" within a time frame context. So this becomes my Creative God.