Is Jesus God or Not?

Posted on: 12/12/2008 20:39

As I was reading Fakirs Canada's blog and the ensuing thread, I kept remembering my own experience. As a very young child in an evangelical fundamental dispensational church in southern California, down in the land of Tim Lahay and Hal Lindsey and at a time when they were just bursting on to the scene, I soaked in the Sunday School facts I was fed weekly, that Jesus was God's son, an equal part of the Triune deity called the godhead. I assumed they were right, after all they were the grown ups, right?

I was taught the doctrine of the incarnaton from birth. Jesus was God come in the flesh. I believed it. Time went on and in 1965 around Easter time we were told that God was dead. The national press announced this, and all the magazines like Time did too. We did not have television right then and we did not subscribe to Time or anything else of a news nature. God was a topic off limits in the public school system, so I just had to guess how it was they know that God had died. My God had not died; I was still praying to God with the same frequency as before and there was no mention that God had died in the church I was attending.

So I went on believing that Jesus was God and that God was alive and well up in heaven. Then one day I was trying to explain the way of salvation in some youth group--we had to practice this and go out and witness from door to door from time to time. Anyway, in my explanation I said that God died on the cross for us and WOW I was told I was teaching heresy. This was and is still very difficult for me to understand. If Jesus is supposed to be God, why can I not say that God died when Jesus died? Aparently this is a well-argued-about heresy that is very old, centuries old in fact.

Anyway, I reasoned that if Jesus could not be said to be God to the extent that they were one and the same person, then there was something wrong with insisting that God and Jesus and the Hoy Spirit were equal in this Triune Godhead. Then as I had read the book from cover to cover several times myself (you won't believe this, but reading the Bible was one of the things my cousins and I did for entertainment--we would have one person read while the rest of us pulled weeds out of my uncle's dishondra lawn experiment...) anyway, I did not see Trinity or Rapture any where in there.

I was about 12-14 when I decided that there was a difference between the Jesus I met at church and the Jesus I met in the Bible. The one in the Bible was not always consistent because the book of John was quite different from the other three gospels, but the Jesus in those other gospels was pretty consistent at being more concerned with the welfare of the persons around him than in arguing who he was or anything lke that.

As time passed and I married into families just like my own, I did not have a place to discuss my questions. Then in 1995 a really funny thing happened which I will no doubt write about sometime but to save time here I will just say that I had a chance drop out of no where to go back to school and after some fast talking and help from others, I got to go to a school other than a Bible Institute. I got to go to a school founded by a faith other than my own. And that was where I finally got to try out my arguments with people who could hear me. After a few months of this freedom of information experience, I felt all the things I had ever learned as "fact" were nothing other than either lies or at best mistakes.

After completeing a BA and then going on to a United Church theological college, I have come out with my own distinct belief system which includes a healthy dose of "I don't know." I think the very biggest thing for me is getting used to the idea that the Bible did not fall out of heaven or be extruded from some 40 mens' hands exactly regurgitating what God said to them. Actually the Bible is our book, our botched attempts to get down on paper the documents our ancestors decided were worth keeping and eventually this group of documents was capped at the present limit and said to be the foundational document of our faith. That shift from the Bible being the direct word of God to the Bible being the direct word of people has made all the difference for me.

I still respect the book, but I also know the book does not work like I thought it did in my childhood. And with that I will say it is now time to make supper. No doubt I will get back to blogging in the not too distant future.

evensong's blog

Comments

Arminius

Posted on: 12/13/2008 00:14

Hi evensong:

Was Jesus God?

Yes, I think he he was, but no more so than you or I or anyone else. He was, however, more aware of his divinity than most of us, and brought us the message of our divinity. Unfortunately, we misunderstood his message, divinized only the messenger, and left ourselves in the mud. It is high time to pull ourselves out of the mire!

WaterBuoy

Posted on: 12/13/2008 10:42

When physical people killed the light (awareness of Love), Christ, does not that emotion rest it's case on mankind to dig it up from within? It is a very metaphysical process to me ... something that we have to think of in depth, but difficult to do in a world where the infinite nature of soul (shadow of mankind) is denied. Now where in hell do we find an enlighted soul down here under the heavens?

Is that material for satire on man ( non sexual metaphysical creature of the night, comes in Paris, Perez, or pairs) if it wouldn't make thoughtful socialism a sin. Now the pseudonym from a dumb creature like I, that probes ... would that be satyr, hammadryad, aphorism, or just simple acronym? The Book of John describes the common (John, Jean, Jack, Jane, whatever) word as a strange thing, but if we study it in depth does it come alive like the mind, a shadowy formless void to be fullfilled?

Then psychologist equate the mind and story reversably like Janus, the God of the threshold in Roman tradition that was like a duality. They said it faced away from life at both ends. I wonder if it is just unity; one door and passage in both directions with light or love and each time you transit, you return somewhere totally changed! Now I'm just a nobody here below so take this all with a giggle, but in there seems to be a small spark of truth. If we could just put it all together ... would that drop the whole cosmos into a vast dark hole ... aphorism for a much bigger mind? Have you ever heard of the Gods (integrated, singular) collapsing into a hole of laughter around the corner with the enemy ... a twisted mind of thought? Ides something to unravel!

Did you know that scientists puzzle over the bending of light, space and time as equivalent items in Einstein's realm ... then they still do not contend with the quantum nature of a loving mind ... it just pops up unexpectedly ... whatever the metaphor? They just do not accept indeterminate things ... or more properly ... non-things ... anti matter!

Dan Brown addressed the subject in Angels and Demons to the distriss of the theologically perfect ( a human construct that needs to be deconstructed and analysed under Jacques Derrida's direction of philosophical literature) ... cosmological oddity like Caligula a self-centred God fallen from space ... collapse of Eden? Physical God ... go way wit' Yah! It's in the psalm/palm ... whatever, not fixed or institutionalized like jack Nickolson's devilish portrayals of the sane and the sadistic! What's norm in a universe that wobbles?

RevLGKing

Posted on: 12/13/2008 14:37

Arminius wrote:

"... Yes, I think he was, but no more so than you or I or anyone else. He was, however, more aware of his divinity than most of us, and brought us the message of our divinity. Unfortunately, we misunderstood his message, divinized only the messenger, and left ourselves in the mud. It is high time to pull ourselves out of the mire!"

Well said, Arminius!

BTW, while I am not into the game of proof-texting just to win an argument, I do believe in looking at texts which have impressed me. For example, in John 10: 34, Jesus, himself, quotes Psalm 82, with approval: Jesus answered, "It is written in your own Law that God said, 'You are gods.' "

The rest of what he say implies: "And so is anyone a god-like being, who makes the choice to think, speak and act in god-like--that is, love-like--ways.

I am also impressed by John 17: 20-26, from which we get, "That all may be one" found on our crest. BTW, this text is about our personal oneness with GOD, not about having one "True" and organized religion, or mega church.

Frequently, over the years, I have preached on these texts.

bygraceiam

Posted on: 12/13/2008 20:46

Hello evensongs......God bless you....

I have always believe in the Trinity....I look back to the scriptures to Gen...1:26...

And God said " Let Us" make man in our image....who was this us if it wasnt the other parts of the Divine....for God is all Spirit ...the Spirit of the Lord hovered over the waters.....

Gen 2:4.....

the " Day the Lord God " made the earth and the heavens..

This is the first time the two were together as God , Lord and of course both Spirit..

And of course the Christ Jesus and the Kingdom of Heaven are within us...

This is what I believe.....Praise the Lord...

RevLGKing.....have you checked you wondermail

IJL:bg

Arminius

Posted on: 12/13/2008 23:57

Hi RevKing: Thanks for the scriptural references. I shall commit them to memory, or, better yet, to my notebook. My memory isn't as good as it used to be.

RevLGKing

Posted on: 12/14/2008 02:05

Arminius, IMO, Jesus was an inclusive non-sectarian universalist. Keep in mind, the famous John 3:16 begins: "God so loved the world..." not just Judah and Israel.

Also note that, in his first sermon, mentioned in Luke 4:25-27, Jesus made the point of telling his fellows Jews, in his home-town synagogue in Nazareth, that in the day of Elijah and Elisha God worked through and for people who were not necessarily Jews. Zaraphath, in the territory of Sidon--in which the widow lived--was a Gentile area--modern Lebanon. Elisha healed Naaman the Syrian. Notice how angry the bigots in the synagogue got when he pointed out the importance of being inclusive.

In Luke 10, the parable of the Good Samaritan is about a Gentile--despised by many of his fellow Jews.

RevLGKing

Posted on: 12/14/2008 10:55

"RevLGKing.....have you checked you wondermail?" Yes I have, graceiam. And I look forward to dialoguing with you about the important points you raise, perhaps in a special blog for that purpose.

BigDave

Posted on: 12/14/2008 11:04

Evensong; Your blog excites me. I think you are experiencing the movement of the Spirit for yourself and not just reading about it. You are 'on a journey' and not just studying other folks journeys from thousands of years ago. Having a good dose of doubt is good too. As Linnea Good sings, "It takes a lot of doubt for a faith to grow."

Good for you. Keep us posted.

Peace

Dave

RevLGKing

Posted on: 12/15/2008 17:02

More about the inclusive nature of Jesus' message:

Take note: Luke 3 tells us about the work of Jesus' cousin, John the Baptist.

About twenty years after the story of Jesus and his questioning of the authorities in the Temple, John introduced Jesus as the Messiah, or, as we say, Christ.

Now, jump forward about two decades.

In Luke 4:1-13 we read about the temptation of Jesus as he is about to begin his short ministry.

IMO, Jesus was tempted as follows:

1. to be either a left-wing dictator--that is, one with the power to "turn stones into bread"--a good socialist...

2. or, a right-wing dictator--that is, one with the power over all people and all wealth--a good capitalist.

3. In addition, he was tempted to cap all this all off with his claiming to have god-like authority.

IMO, he rejected all the above temptations.

================================

With the above temptations in mind let us look at: Luke 4:16-21 (New Living Translation) we read:

16 When he came to the village of Nazareth, his boyhood home, he went as usual to the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read the Scriptures.

17 The scroll of Isaiah the prophet was handed to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where this was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
      for he has anointed me to bring Good News to the poor.
   He has sent me to proclaim that captives will be released,
      that the blind will see,
   that the oppressed will be set free,
      19 and that the time of the Lord’s favor has come.”

20 He rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down. All eyes in the synagogue looked at him intently.

21 Then he began to speak to them. “The Scripture you’ve just heard has been fulfilled this very day!” Notice where he stops. It is right in the middle of the verse, 2a, in Isaiah.

[Immediately, he got their attention.]

ISAIAH 61:2b

But here is what Jesus did not quote: "...and with it, the day of God’s anger against their enemies.

[The KJV&RSV use, "...the day of vengeance of our God." Can you imagine that, who taught his disciples to love Gentiles, even ones who are enemies, approved of a god of vengeance?]

3 To all who mourn in Israel, [The KJV&RSV use, Zion.]
      he will give a crown of beauty for ashes,
   a joyous blessing instead of mourning,
      festive praise instead of despair.
   In their righteousness, they will be like great oaks
      that the Lord has planted for his own glory.

4 They will rebuild the ancient ruins,
      repairing cities destroyed long ago.
   They will revive them,
      though they have been deserted for many generations.

5 Foreigners will be your servants. [Gentile slaves? No wonder they became--and most still are--the bitter enemies of the Zionists. Read on.]
      They will feed your flocks
   and plow your fields
      and tend your vineyards.
6 You will be called priests of the Lord,
      ministers of our God.
   You will feed on the treasures of the nations
      and boast in their riches.
7 Instead of shame and dishonor,
      you will enjoy a double share of honor.
   You will possess a double portion of prosperity in your land,
      and everlasting joy will be yours."

=================00000=================

I can't imagine that Jesus believed in a kingdom of God based dictatorial power, greed, bigotry and the like.

One can imagine that Jesus began his sermon with the opening words of Isaiah 61 to get the attention of his fellow Nazarenes. Amos used a similar tactic.

Then here is what I imagine he went on to say, it was something like this:

"As most of you know, I spent forty days in the desert preparing for this day. Yes, I know that you, my beloved people, have the dream that, some day God will build his kingdom on earth. I too have that dream.

I know that you would like me to tell you that I am the long sought-for Messiah; that I am prepared to lead you in a war of victory over the Gentiles, expecially the oppressive Romans; that following this victory I will: restore the wealth, power and glory we had in the days of David and Solomon; that, in the Jerusalem Temple, I will then be crowned as your prophet, priest and king and declare that God's kingdom has finally come..." There was a long pause.

"Yes, I am here to declare that this kingdom is come now...but it is not a kingdom which can be imposed on this world by anyone--king, church or state--who seeks to be loved and worshipped by his people just because he turns stones into bread and power into prosperity. It is a kingdom based on the

THE GREATEST POWER IN THE WORLD, HUMANE LOVE

Humane love is found only in the human and willing spirit. Out of it grows faith, hope, joy, justice, peace and prosperity for all, including the Gentiles...Yes, even those we think of as enemies."

He went on to drive home his message by telling them--no doubt a familiar story--how that, in the time of Elijah and Elisha, God lovingly worked, inclusively, in through and with Gentiles, not just Jews.

At this point his fellow Nazarenes refused to listen. They became so angry they dragged him out of the congregation and were prepared to kill him. He escaped then, but not for long. And until we learn and put into practice the simple lesson of humane love, the killing will go on.

RevLGKing

Posted on: 12/14/2008 20:07

I must add: IMO, Jesus was not opposed to health, wealth and prosperity, but he wanted it to be for all, not just for us. Justice must be for all, or there will be no peace of mind, or any kind, for anyone.

Arminius

Posted on: 12/15/2008 18:42

Yes, RevKing, Jesus was inclusive and non-sectarian. His "kingdom of God" was for everyone. He was not out to denominationalize but to spiritualize the world.

evensong

Posted on: 12/16/2008 13:49

I want to thank you all for your comments--I am trying to understand them all and consider this a wonderful opportunity to get an education for free! It will be January most likely before I can get down to the serious business of trying to figure out exactly what I believe. I will work on my orthodoxy then. Right now it is orthopraxy I must major on, or Christmas is not going to happen at our house :)

The new blog post is a result of the continuing conversation from this first blog entry...

RevLindsayKing

Posted on: 12/24/2008 01:47

Orthopraxy. Interesting word. You mean doing the right thing?

Over the years I have used the same word in sermons, frequently--especially when I preached on the James 2:14-26--the poverty of faith without works.

Do you, or anyone, have you any idea where the words comes from? I used you say: Beliefs are important; but without at least the attempt at orthopraxy, orthodoxy is hypocrisy.

Are aware the Luther, who put all of his faith in faith, described James as an, "epistle of straw"? He debated whether or not to leave it out of his translation of the German Bible.

evensong

Posted on: 12/26/2008 19:47

Etymology:
"Orthopraxy" derives from the Greek "orthos" ("correct" or "straight") + "praxis" ("action"); it denotes "correct behaviour or actions."
http://www.translationdirectory.com/glossaries/glossary014_o.htm

I am under the impression that correct practice was of more importance in Judaism than actual correct beliefs or correct memorized laws and rituals. For instance, a kind and loving Gentile would be counted as righteous without all the deeds of the law being fulfilled. Just loving ones fellow human beings was enough to be counted righteous--like Mr. Schindler who helped those ill-fated Jews to be kept safe in a fake factory producing useless equipment...Many of Schindler's actions were lies but he was telling lies to keep hundreds safe so the goal of loving one's fellows is of the most importance--that is the correct practice of highest value. Important beliefs are also important, but people can make memorization of laws more important then the living out of those laws--called legalism. There is probably a balance one is to keep in mind. Perhaps one of Jesus' parables covers this topic.

RevLindsayKing

Posted on: 01/04/2009 21:17

I will watch for what more you have to say, with interest.

unionvilletim

Posted on: 01/11/2009 01:01

Hi Arminius,

"but no more so than you and I or anyone else"?

I have never fullfilled almost 400 prophesies written upto a thousand years earlier. (see Isaiah 53 or google the prophesies of Jesus). Just look at all the prophies written before Jesus came into the world. How about all the miracles that Jesus performed infront of large crowds that are acknowledged by many secular sources within a few dozen years of his death and resurrection. He himself said he can forgive sin and accepted worship unto himself. He told of his death and resurrection the days leading up to the events. There are so many scholars that are in the top universities that would attest to the evidence of a historical Jesus who lead a unique life so unique like no other person in the history of our planet. Even his birth was bathed in Glory! The well know saying about who Jesus was...and you have three choices.... LIAR LUNATIC OR GOD (Lord) when you look at who he was.

God in human flesh ....God's ultimate Justice for us....the ultimate sacrafice. Freely given for us. The choice is ours whether we accept God's gift.

RevLindsayKing

Posted on: 01/12/2009 18:42

Tim, Lindsay from Thornhill, here. Good to dialogue with you. I agree that the Gospel teaches that Jesus was at one with GOD. But it also teaches that he called us to follow him. I don't think he ever said: "But you will find it impossible to do so." No check out Matthew 5:48: "You must be perfect--just as your Father in heaven is perfect." What a challenge!

QUESTIONS FOR DIALOGUE--that is, AGREEING TO DISAGREE, LOVINGLY. Note: A dialogue is not a debate--where debaters try to prove that they have the monopoly on the Truth. A dialogue is about exploring, with others, ways and means of finding the highest and best possible truth.

In the spirit of dialogue, can you point to me a verse in the Gospels where Jesus ever said: "I am the only one who is, or ever will be, at one with GOD."?

Check out John 10:34. "I have said you are gods." What do you think he had in mind when he said this? [Keep in mind that the original Greek text was in uncials--that is, without upper and lower case letters. Also, there were no punctation marks.]

Check out John 17:20-26. It is all about our oneness with Jesus and GOD. The central verse: "That all may be one." is on the crest of the United Church. BTW, I do not believe it is about the organic union of churches.

Galatians 3:26-29. "It is through faith that all of you (including women) are God's sons in union with Christ Jesus." .... Check the whole passage.

I have heard the above teaching of Paul quoted as the basis of all the modern democratic freedoms. I believe that our at-one-ment with GOD is the source of all freedom. Now that IS Good News! The Gospel.

friendlyghost

Posted on: 02/10/2009 13:51

How can we find God’s true Church? This is the question that deserves the right answer. First let’s name all the Churches and different denominations that claimed to be Christians. These are the Catholic, Lutheran, Anglecans, Babtist, Fundamentalist, Pentecostal, Evangelical, The living Church of God, Church of Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons these are the Churches that teaches and preaches the Gospel of Christ not sure if I mentioned all but these selection pretty much cover the majority of different denominations and they all Believe that Jesus is the creator of the universe, even the Jehovah’s witnesses acknowledge that. In spite of that The Mormons and Jehovah witnesses are rejected by most traditional Christian they said that they are taking away the Deity of Christ, for instance the Jehovah’s witnesses believe that Jesus is theMichael the Archangel and the Mormons claiming that Jesus is the Brother of Satan, this could be a major issue but since that this article is about Eternal Torture we will not discuss this issue for now, so let’s go back to the main question How can we find God’s true Church?

Let’s make it clear that these denominations or at least most of them claimed to be the only True Church, now that’s really something isn’t? And they all or at least most of them are using the phrase “sincerity is not enough”. A Church who's claiming that they have all the truth failed already by making that statement because True Church is you're personal relationship with Almighty God, as long as we remained in him and we abided in his Word The Holly Scripture we are all Children of God therefore we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. In a dictionary Religion define as "Good Faith". As they are all saying sincerity is not enough" or something like "sincere but mistaken" is a false statement, the Bible say's “seek and you will find”, If you are sincerely seeking for the Truth you will find Jesus, “Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity” (Eph: 6:24) 1Co: 5:8, 2Co: 1:12, 2Co: 2:17, 2Co: 8:8,Ti: 2:7 Sincerity is the heart of our Faith. Don’t let Satan twist that word for you If you are sincere Jesus will not going to give you a hard time, He will reveal him self to you but if you're not sincerely seeking then He can’t help very much a good example is Martin Luther a German monk he was very sincere and searching for an answer, he realized that the roman catholic is twisting the word of God he rejected those Ideas and doctrines he became the Father of Protestantism, he made the Bible accessible to everyone, “Luther's confrontation with the Roman Emperor Charles V and his refusal to submit to the authority of the Emperor resulted in his being excommunicated from the Roman Catholic and being declared an outlaw of the state as a consequence”. This is the kind of sincerity that we need, a willingness to confront your own church if they have flaws; Sincerity is a requirement of God. So you may ask, why do we have so many Doctrines If God revealed him self already for those who were seeking sincerely? It seems like God’s revelation to mankind is inconspicuous, maybe because Doctrine is not so important. He is more concerned of how you live you're life don't you think it's a fair statement in biblical's point of view?

Before you read this study about eternal torture, I want to make it clear that my opinion about this conflicting subject is neutral even though that I am more comfortable with the Idea that Hell is a place of none existing, I still put it in consideration that everything is possible so I may have an open mind and evaluate the hypothesis.

There are many chapters and verses in the Bible that reflects that hell is a place for eternal torment, and like wise, there are many chapters and verses in the bible that reflects that hell is a state of death (not conscious) a complete elimination of soul, what ever the facts maybe, in my opinion Christianity shouldn't be divided by this misconception about hell. God is more concern with how we live our lives as a Christian. Agree? One of the strongest Biblical passage that I consider that justify eternal torment is luke16:19-28 but we also have to consider that these particular Bible verses should not be taken literally because the day of Judgment hasn't arrive yet, therefore the story so far remains parable (not an actual event) but the content portrays eternal torment in hell. Another passage is Revelation 20:10 Ideally when we study the Bible as we are not all scholars, when we find contradictions, our natural reaction is to find chapters and verses that Justifies our beliefs the more passages or verses we find in the bible the more we feel comfortable with the idea, and we are using this method (mathematical evidence or in simple term, a proof) to clear our confusions. This is the initial reaction of our conscience to find out which one is the fact and which one is the counterfeit. Another method that we can use is to study the contexts of the Scripture which is the very basic way for Bible study, but the contexts doesn’t all the time starts at the beginning of the chapter. It is recommended to read the whole chapter and find where the context begins. I personally use Good News version because it is written in modern English and it highlights where the contexts begins.

I used King James Version for this study since that some people doesn’t accept Good News version as a real translation, also it’s a mandatory to find out how the word was used? Where is it referring to? Is it referring to life after death? Another contributing factor

That we must consider is whether the statement is doctrinal. A doctrinal statement has to have a literal meaning; we cannot take a parable phrase and claim it as a doctrinal statement. Let’s take a popular verse from the Bible John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Is this a Doctrinal statement? Yes it is, and it’s profitable for teaching, should we take this verse literally? No we shouldn’t, the word believeth (pistevo) “ The Greek word, which is translated as faith, is pistis (noun) and believe, is translated from pistevo (verb). The word believe (Greek verb "pistevo"), according to Strong's Greek Dictionary, means: to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust, (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ.) believe, commit, (to trust), put in trust with. "Pistevo" comes from the Greek noun "pistis" which means: persuasion, i.e., credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself; assurance, belief, believe, faith. Notice the subtle shades of meaning which are unlocked in the amplified translations” (http://www.helleniccomserve.com/wordstudy.html) notice that

On this particular verse Believeth means “remained, endure or persist” We need to study whether the contexts should be taken literally or figuratively, is Jesus using a figure of speech? Or was he saying something in a metaphorical sense? These are the fundamental elements from which this study is based upon. Let’s give a good example; Jesus referred himself as the son of man 85 times, all though it is very prominent that He’s not just the son of man. Therefore it is completely understood that the son of man has a metaphorical meaning. It is conspicuous that those 85 verses are just a figure of speech that the son of man is just a term or phrase that was applied to something to which it is not in a literal sense. In this study we will l establish the given facts and the readers will have to come up with their own reasonable conclusion.

Total occurrences for the word perish in the New Testament are 40. 9 out of 40 are referring to destruction of soul and not eternal torture (the worst excruciating pain). Total occurrences for torment are 22. 9 out of 22 are referring to eternal torture take note that there is 1 verse that is not referring to physical pain (1John 4:18)

Total occurrences for the word torture in the New Testament is 1 (Heb: 11:35) and it’s not referring to eternal torture. Total occurrences for the words torment, tormented and torture in the Old Testament are zero. Therefore I will remain neutral on this subject and I cannot make a mathematical conclusion as this reference is only reliable if we find an over whelming evidence against the counterfeit meaning 9 against 7 doesn't automatically mean that 9 is right. It has to be an overwhelming number of difference.

Perish - Apollymi to die or be destroyed (dictionary.com)

"Perish" The word perish in Greek is Apollymi and it means total destruction, destroy, demolish (http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon) Greek to English dictionary.

1. M't:5:29: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

2. M't:5:30: And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

M't: 8:25: And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

M't:8:32: And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

M't: 9:17: Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

M't:18:14: Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

M't:26:52: Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

M'r:4:38: And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?

Lu:5:37: And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Lu:8:24: And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.

Lu:11:51: From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

3. Lu:13:3: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4. Lu:13:5: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Lu:13:33: Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Lu:15:17: And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

Lu:21:18: But there shall not a hair of your head perish.

5. Joh:3:15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

6. Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh:6:27: Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

7. Joh: 10:28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish; neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh: 11:50: Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

Ac: 5:37: After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

Ac: 8:20: But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Ac:13:41: Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Ro:2:12: For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

1Co:1:18: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co:8:11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

1Co:15:18: Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

8. 2Co:2:15: For we are unto God a sweet savior of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

2Co:4:16: For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Col:2:22: Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

2Th:2:10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Heb:1:11: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old, as doth a garment;

Heb:11:31: By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Jas:1:11: For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

1Pe:1:7: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

2Pe:2:12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2Pe:3:6: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

9. 2Pe:3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Jude:1:11: Woe unto them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Torment –Basano Torture, Pain

The word Torment in Greek is Basano and it means Torture, Pain (http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon) Greek to English dictionary.

M't:4:24: And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

M't:8:6: And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

M't:8:29: And, behold, they cried out, saying, what have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

M't:18:34: And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

M'r:5:7: And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Lu:8:28: When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

1. Lu:16:23: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

2. Lu:16:24: And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

3. Lu:16:25: But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

4. Lu:16:28: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Heb:11:37: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

1Jo:4:18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Re:9:5: And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Re:11:10: And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

5. Re:14:10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

6. Re:14:11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Re:18:7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

7. Re:18:10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

8. Re:18:15: The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

9. Re:20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

All right let’s evaluate the contexts, Let’s take those verses again and make a comparison. I will put the word torture next to the word perish note that if Jesus wants us to believe that eternal torment exist, Jesus will make it prominent specially when the contexts consists of life after death, heaven and hell and eternal life and death.

3. Lu:13:3: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all like wise perish. (be tortured) Note that God wants us to believe that eternal torture exists. Why he didn't use the word torture?

4. Lu:13:5: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (be tortured) this is the second time he mentioned it. When God say things 2 times he means listen very carefully and again he didn’t use the word torture why?

5. John: 3:15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, (be tortured) but have eternal life. Again he didn't use the word torture. Why?

6. John:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, (be tortured) but have everlasting life. Again he didn't use the word torture why?

7. John:10:28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, (be tortured) neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Again he didn't use the word torture why?

8. 2Co:2:15: For we are unto God a sweet savior of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: (be tortured) Again he didn't use the word torture why?

9. 2Pe:3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, (be tortured) but that all should come to repentance. Again he didn't use the word torture why?

Let me remind you that the word perish in Greek is Apollymi and it means total destruction, destroy, demolish. I was looking for a mathematical evidence but I found this method for reference makes more sense because we are actually dealing with the actual contexts and dealing with major Bible passages like John 3:16. So my Question is, if Jesus wants us to believe that eternal torment exist why He didn’t use the word torture in 7 major perfectly consistent and coherent verses, specially when these verses are referring to life after death? Why do we have all these verses with seamless message contradict the eternal torture doctrine? This is a major question we should ask and crying for an answer.

I have to admit since that I’ Am looking for an answer with an open mind that some of the passages in the new testament sounds like eternal torment, or should we take them figuratively? Was he saying something in a metaphorical sense? Can we deny 7 major passages that are referring to total destruction of soul (none existing)? So does eternal excruciating torture exists? Hypothetically maybe, it is possible because it’s written, but even in just human level of understanding eternal torture doctrine violates the nature of God, which is Love and Mercy, if this idea did not come from God then we know where it came from, I can’t see the good loving Jesus will create such a place. Will you will loose you’re eternal life if you don’t believe that eternal torture exists? I don’t think so. My final words are “it’s not important”, it’s not as important as how you live you’re life, how you treat others, how you judge others, do you proclaim to the world that Jesus Christ is you’re Lord and Savior, have you turned away from you’re sin? These are the things that God really care about. He doesn’t care whether you believe in the trinity, whether you speak in tongues or believe in today’s miracles and healings. Maybe the Deity of Christ is important but if they accept that Jesus is the Messiah and they believe that He is the Savior of the world we should give them a little bit of respect.

If you proclaim to the World that Jesus Christ is you’re Lord and Savior and you abided in him and his Word and you endureth till the end. You will be saved period, that is the heart of the Gospel the True Christian Doctrine, the only Doctrine that Christianity should embrace anything beyond that is Satanic. One of Satan’s top ten list agenda is to divide Christianity don’t be part of it. We shouldn’t judge a person who believes in Christ whether his a Christian or not, based on little minor things, only God can judge. We were told not to judge others M't:7:1: Judge not, that ye be not judged. M't:7:2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. What bothered me the most is when other Christians condemn the Jehovah’s witnesses saying that they are in the occult. Who are we to judge them and that’s more than judging that’s condemning them; who Am I to condemn anyone specially those people who goes door to door and trying to educate people about the Bible? The Jehovah’s witnesses believeth that Jesus is the Messiah they believe that He is the Savior of the world, they preached the Good news of Jesus Christ, they have published inspiring literatures about the Bible and yes they have flaws maybe some doctrinal issues but we must understand that their intentions are good and their motives are good and that is enough to give them a little bit of respect and not condemn them; “condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned ” (Lu: 6:37) When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? (Joh:8:10) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.” (Joh:8::11) “And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.” (Joh:12::47) “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.”(Ro:2:1) Don’t be single minded, that’s really being narrow minded it is obvious that God’s wisdom was not poured upon these people who judge. When Jesus said don’t Judge he didn’t say that it’s a bad idea what he meant is, it is evil to judge others. All Churches have flaws Any Churches that teaches sincerity is not enough is changing the very basic elemental requirement of God, which is Sincerity, but I don’t judge them! Their just misinformed, what about the Roman Catholics? We all know that they have major doctrinal flaws that needs to be address as well as the Mormons but it’s been emphasized on this article that Religion will not save you. Yes you can just attend the Catholic Church all you’re life and be saved; it is the Bible and the Bible alone that will bring us to salvation.

RevLGKing

Posted on: 07/03/2009 23:56

HOW JESUS BECAME A CHRISTIAN--A new book by professor Barry Wilson of York University.

http://www.barriewilson.com/hjbc.html

Was Jesus a Christian?

http://thewordofme.wordpress.com/2008/03/23/was-jesus-a-christian/

http://www.yorku.ca/akevents/flash/arts_letter/barrie_wilson/