Hi Rev Fran, 

Haven't seen you around the cafe for a while.  Welcome back!  It sounds like it was a wonderful celebration of life for your friend's sister. 

When it comes to the subtitle of Gretta's book, I both agree and disagree with her.  I see little point in religious faith that is not lived out in the world, so to this extent I concur with Gretta.  But I see belief and behaviour as a continuous loop, in that one influences the other. 

Gretta often distinguishes between values-based and belief-based spirituality.  When she talks about "how we live", I understand her to mean living according to the values of love, compassion, community, and so on. 

I hosted a discussion thread (some time back), where I asked folks whether their spirituality was based on beliefs or values. 

Many posters replied that beliefs and values were intertwined.  A few people said that their faith journey was more experientially based, i.e. based on experience of God or hunger for God. 

Peace . . . P3

Hi back - yes, I have been so busy with conference and Presbytery restructuring that I almost forgot my own name. Now that the restructuring is over and I am not on ANY committees for at least a year, (thanks be to God) , I can get back to blogging and the other things I really enjoy doing which got left by the wayside.

My spouse, who is not at all religious or faith oriented - would say that values should arise out of human sense, and that people should not need a faith to teach them things that go without saying. Plus he would say there are too many people around who call themselves whatever, and then proceed to behave abominably. So he would definitely espouse values-based - and it's what has enabled us to stay married for 38 years - we share common values about how people should live. I think in fact that that's what Jesus was talking about as well.

Hi again, 

Are you saying that Jesus is primarily an exemplar of values for you?  (I understand this to be Gretta's postion.)

Were you hoping to get into more discussion about her book?  I was wondering about this when I saw the title of your blog. 

Going back to your opening post, I would say that God cares a great deal about our actions, and about the honesty in our hearts.  Or so I believe.

Hi Rev Fran, 

While I had thought myself to be pretty much finished with discussing Gretta and her book here on wondercafe, it seems that I still have a few things to say.  I walked with the congregation at West Hill for five years, and departed in the spring of 2005.  It is no exaggeration on my part to say that it has been a journey of profound grief and some amazing healing.

The CCPC has a conference coming up next weekend, and one of the presenters will be Dana Wilson Li, former board chair at WHUC.  She is going to be discussing the process of introducing progressive change to a congregation.  Her presentation is entitled "congregational hiccups", which is an understatement if I ever heard one.  

Okay, off to get busy with writing another blog.  I might call it "More Than a Hiccup".    

I know that there have been people at West Hill who left, and others for whom West Hill has opened doors in a greater spirituality. Gretta is a friend of mine, and from time to time over coffee we discuss how to move congregations into progressive change. We don't always agree, either!

In the case of Glen Ayr, we've managed - so far - to have few serious hiccups. There were some people who didn't want the changes, and tried some rather interesting techniques to preserve the status quo. Not this time; the congregation was ready to say "enough".

Change is very slow. I am going into a fifth year in Glen Ayr, and while we have made some great strides, some people are impatient to move faster.

You asked if Jesus was an exemplar of values for me. Yes. I have never believed Jesus was divine - and always believed he was a singular human being who reached a level of enlightenment that few people do. Reading the Gospels, it is possible to see points in his own development where he had very real human wrestling to do with a sense of mission, vision, calling and purpose. Virtually every parable he told had to do with values - not the faith people professed. So he managed to irritate the religious leaders no end by calling them hypocrites.

I do believe in God - however that takes form - and unlike Gretta, I don't excise those words from my theology, but work to explain how I understand Jesus and God in today's context . Just taking the word God out doesn' t move people in any direction at all. What I have found is that many people in my congregation are in the same place theologically, but were afraid to say so before, and there is to some degree a sense of relief that they can ask questions and grapple with mission, vision, calling and purpose - and even have doubts.

Hi again, 

Thanks very much for the conversation.  Perhaps you could explain what you mean by "progressive change"?  I know how Gretta defines it, but I am wondering what kind of changes you have implemented at your church.  Where do you plan to move in the future?

We have just wrapped up two discussion threads here on wondercafe about terminology and its limitations.  The first was about right and left on the theological spectrum; the second concerned Borg's earlier and emerging paradigms. 

Interested in hearing more of your thoughts . . . P3

More to say in response to your last post . . .

Yes, there have been many people at West Hill who left.  It is no secret that the number of departures has started to erode the financial stability of the congregation.  And you are right, many new members have been attracted to WHUC.  Here on wondercafe, Cjms talks passionately about her experience, and advocates tirelessly for values-based spirituality.  IWonder was my unofficial "co-host" when we did the WWG book study, and he has since joined the board of the CCPC.

When you say that you have never believed Jesus was divine, are you talking about the virgin birth?  I was never taught about the virgin birth in my United Church upbringing.  That was in the days of the New Curriculum, so the focus was really on Jesus as a moral teacher.  As an adult, I have grown more interested in Jesus as a Jewish mystic.  I have trouble with the idea of Jesus being only an exemplar of values, but I agree with your comments in your post. 

You may be interested to know that Gretta once told me she didn't think she and I were very far apart in our theology, the major difference being around her reluctance to call herself a follower of Jesus.  I certainly agree with her rejection of classical supernaturalism.  In WWG, it bothered me that she didn't seriously consider any other forms of theism. 

I like your approach to explaining God and Jesus in today's context, and the idea of being open to questions, and so on.  And yes, doubt, too.  Doubt is part of my faith journey, that is for sure.

HI there -

When I say Jesus was not divine, I wasn't referring to the virgin birth, although I don't buy that either. I mean the noton that Jesus was somehow God, both human and divine. Unless one can accept that we are all human and divine. Made a little lower than the angels. Nor do I believe in the sacrificial atonement theology, or that Jesus had to die.

I do call myself Christian and a follower of Jesus, though - in that the values Jesus espoused and the teachings are exemplars worth following. Do I believe Jesus is the ONLY one? No. But although this was my faith by accident of birth, it is now also by choice.  With liberal sprinklings of other faith traditions. :)

Glen Ayr: well, most of the language in the services is inclusive - presenting God in many forms, but definitely not the usual church language - I rewrite everything. Jesus is seen as a human being (although not by all, I'd wager :) ) We don't talk about Jesus dying for our sins, or salvation. The Lord's Prayer is no longer a standard feature of the service. From time to time we use one version or another - but I preached a series of four sermons on the Lord's Prayer and what it likely meant to the hearers then. No longer preach from the pulpit, but among the people when possible. Communion table has come down out of the chancel and is at floor level. Choir is now visible. Further changes to the chancel are planned. Inclusion of wisdom and insight from other faiths is becoming more common. We are trying to focus on what our mission and ministry are in this century, to people who have been hurt by the church (as I mentioned in the original part of this blog) and get away from just existing for ourselves and meeting the budget.

Perhaps I should say after a failed amalgamation, most people realised it would not have been the right thing anyway.

I don't very often sing the really old hymns because many of the congregation find them hard to stomach, but this month we are doing a service of oldies, because they do speak to some of the older people (not all of them, either, however).

Hi Fran, 

Thanks for your very detailed response to my question.  I am familiar with a few of the United Church congregations in Scarborough, and this gives me an idea about where Glen Ayr seems to fit.  I have heard about the failed amalgamation plan.  Did it involve three churches?  Maybe I will come for a visit one Sunday.

A few years ago there was a piece in the Toronto Star by a guest columnist.  He wrote that in Hindu thought, the various world faiths can be considered love affairs with different manifestations of the divine.  I guess this is what Jesus is for me - -  a manifestation of the divine, and I am not overly concerned with what this means logistically.  I don't accept the virgin birth story, but I am not troubled by Christians who believe it.  Was Jesus both truly God and truly human?  Maybe to a greater extent than the rest of us, but I don't attach any supernaturalism to this. 

When it comes to atonement theology, my thinking is pretty much in flux these days.   For a short time after leaving West Hill, I thought I was taking a real turn for the conservative, but I no longer think this is the case. 

I can appreciate other faith traditions, and I can accept what you are saying about their wisdom.  For me, Christian faith centres on the Bible as our sacred story, and it is important to me to engage with the Bible.  I am reminded of a story about the Dalai Lama.  When asked by a spiritual seeker if she should become a Buddhist, he replied, "No, go more deeply into your own tradition."

It is interesting to read about your focus on those who have been hurt by religion.  Gretta talks a great deal about those who have been hurt by conservative churches and/ or denominations.   Ironically enough, the theological shift which took place at WHUC caused pain, too.  I believe that the leadership at WHUC underestimated the extent of the grief some of us would experience.  I also think that they underestimated the number of departures that would eventually occur.

When does progressive Christianity become post Christianity?  I am not sure exactly, but I think there is a point at which one steps beyond the Christian tradition.  On the front of the paperback edition of With Or Without God, there is a quote (perhaps from the National Post) about Gretta arguing passionately for a "post Christian church".  In my view, this is where she has ended up.

Thank you again for the conversation.  I am enjoying talking with you . . . P3

Yes, Glen Ayr was one of the three churches  - we were the one with our bags packed ready to go. There was an agreement that if one congregation didn't want to amalgamate, it wouldn't go ahead - and as you likely know one of the congregations voted no - mainly because they were not the place of choice. The other congregation went into a bit of a tailspin. Glen Ayr just kind of dusted itself off and said "OK what's next?". There were some who wanted to go ahead with an amalgamation of the remaining two - but to me that was an error. Geographical proximity doesn't make compatible congregations in terms of leadership and theology. So Glen Ayr has continued its sharing with many churches in Scarborough, and is open to "dance partners".

When the Dalai Lama was here in Toronto, I took the week-long kalachakra empowerment. It was quite profound, even with 9000 people there! He has also said that Buddhism and Christianity are not conflicting - since one is a philosophy which supports the best of Christian principles. My experience in various interfaith settings has made it clear that often learning about the other faith sheds new understanding on our own as well.

I agree with you about engaging with the Bible, and that's probably another place where I'd differ with Gretta. I don't believe it is the literal word of God (both the good literature and the atrocious) - but it does give us something to grapple with, and throwing it out in my mind actually avoids dealing with it, which isn't helpful IMO. I prefer the Jewish tradition of midrash - what would those texts have meant to the hearers then, and what can we take from them in today's context. I find the congregation really enjoys delving into the history. Use the texts, try to wring some meaning out of them - there is lots there.

You will find Glen Ayr in some ways traditional church, and in other ways not - and I make no bones about the fact that we are in flux. But the flux is mostly good natured.

PS. I preached once at West Hill last year - did my thing sitting in the armchair in front of the table - fireside chat.

Hi Fran, 

Throughout this thread, you have described various changes which have taken place at Glen Ayr.  Some of the changes seem to be largely a matter of worship style  - - moving the communion table, preaching from the floor of the sanctuary instead of the pulpit, etc.  Others seem to be more theologically based - -  moving away from the Lord's Prayer, incorporating the wisdom of other faith traditions, and so on.

How would you say these changes came about?  Were they at your initiative, at the initiative of the board, or something else?

You have described some backlash from eight former members.  Were you drawing a parallel with the departures from West Hill?  West Hill, of course, has lost significantly more members than this.  I have been told that there are approximately 65 former WHUC members at another local congregation.  Additionally, there are a few others (I am one of them) now with other United Churches.  I also know a few folks who have yet to settle on another church home. 

Thanks for outlining the differences between your POV and Gretta's. 

Good discussion . . . P3

Hi P3

I would say most of the changes came from the various ministries and Board. I know about the number who have left West Hill - and I have no problem with people leaving one congregation and going to another if they decide that's necessary. 

The Board *and* I together made it clear that some behaviours would not be tolerated . Now, we read a covenant of behaviour at every Board and congregational meeting.

So I guess I am saying the change was a both/and - and we discuss what can and can't be done, and how fast. Twice we have gone to congregational *polls*, and the majority are in favour. And those who weren't in favour agreed that they would go with the majority. We are really trying to figure out who we are and what God is asking us to do. But I don't do anything without listening to the wisdom of the Board - they are smart people, and some of them are way ahead of me in many ways and I gallop to catch up :)

Is that a little clearer?

Hi Fran, 

Thanks for the clarification that you were not drawing a parallel between your church and WHUC.  And I appreciate your willingness to speak so frankly about events at Glen Ayr.  It really sounds like a different set of circumstances from what unfolded at WHUC.  You are also describing a leadership style which is quite different from Gretta's.  In With or Without God, Gretta outlines her strategies for introducing change. 

I cannot speak to the extent to which former West Hill people have gone about recruiting others to leave. I do find it curious that so many of them have settled in one nearby congregation.  To tell you the truth, I think it would have been healthier for them to spread themselves out more.  All the same, leaving on my own was a lonely and painful experience, and I appreciate that leaving en masse (so to speak) would be much easier to do.

It was a source of frustration to me that others who were equally unhappy did not choose to leave when I did.  I could name a few people who took three or four years to finally make the decision to leave.  But I am not suggesting this is the case with all the departures.  I only know a few of the stories. 

Thanks again for the conversation.  This is the longest "one on one" conversation I have had on a wondercafe blog or discussion thread . . . P3

Hi P3 -

I haven't finished reading Gretta's book, so can't comment yet - but I don't ever acceptother people's ways to make change whole-hog. Every congregation is different, and the circumstances around which change happen are different. In the case of Glen Ayr, it couldn't happen until the majority stopped letting a handful of people call the shots. If I provided an atmosphere in which they could do that, then the changes they wish to make will come easier - and I am there to coach and encourage, not push and pull them into MY vision of what the church should be. I consider myself a progressive Christian, but others are not in the same place -and may never be.

If you want to continue the conversation - but in Wondermail - we could move it there, although I think this is still relevant, even if it is the two of us.

Hi Fran, 

Since you have said that you consider yourself to be a progressive Christian, could you explain more fully what this means to you?  You have already indicated that your POV is somewhat different from Gretta's.  I have found in discussion here on wondercafe that folks use terminology such as "progressive" in a variety of ways.

If you are happy to continue talking here, I would be pleased to keep going with our conversation.  I don't see any need to move it to wondermail. 

Bye for now . . . P3

Hi Fran, paradox 3.

I've been following this discussion with interest. 

Gretta Vosper is coming to Oz next year to give lectures at our progressive Common Dream's conference. (John Shelby Spong was the guest last conference.) I also understand that Bruce Sanguin will be paying us a visit - so Canada will be well represented.

Fran, I tend to agree with your comment about Jesus being human and not divine. I think it's an important distinction to make, because imo Jesus's message was the Kingdom of God - not himself. Traditional Christianity lost it's appeal for me with the concept of Jesus dying for our sins - it always seemed more like a political assassination.

Resurrection only makes sense to me in the way suggested by Marcus Borg - of symbolically dying to an old self and becoming anew.

From what I've read here, Gretta could be too far on the left for me - but we'll see!

 Hi P3 and Pilgrim!!! I will be happy to continue discussing my version of "progressive". Just give me a bit to collect my thoughts :)