"It was unfortunate that this whole thing appeared to come from the top down instead of getting congregations and individuals talking about it first."  (quote)

Herein lies one of the main problems with the UCC, I think.  Congregations need to feel a part of the process of planning and creating and decision making along with the top brass, so to speak.  Because our congregation has been left out of such things, we are very much down in attendance and participation.  In order to "recruit" new members, we first need good reasons for them to join us.  I would think that our actions speak louder than our words.

somegalfromcan,

Using the same analogy, I would see a company that researched how folks thought of them, who might like to work for them, where they were, how to reach them... started training franchises how to welcome them...  launched ad campaigns and a web presence....  to be recruiting.

I simply doubt that a university or employer would deny it or feel weird and cky about the word recruit.

I think that recruiting is okay, depending on the reasons that you are recruiting for.

Young people today, who have been out and about in the world, are unlikely to see the church as the vehicle for their questions and answers about life and faith.  In so many ways, the church has remained in the past, especially as far as worship services and church on Sunday morning is concerned.  We are asked to repeat creeds and say Amen to prayers which we may not entirely believe.  In other words, we have words put into our mouths.

We need more churches who are willing to go out on a limb with honest discussions and education, a place where you will not be looked upon curiously for your questions, doubts, and fears.  I'm sure there are these places, but would think that they are far and few between.

I also think that being able to attract the right people into ministry has become a problem and that has become one of the issues that we have been dealing with for some time now.

The only thing I have to add in this "recruitment" debate vis-a-vis WC is that if that is the intention here, WC could at least feature a visible recognition on each page that the site is sponsored by the UCCan - eg a name, crest and sound bite (like "Brought to you by the United Church of Canada in the interests of "spirited" discussion). And a disclaimer should also be posted on each page (because too many assume that the opinions expressed here are representative of the UCCan).

oops...

All that proves is that Knox United Church is using the tools available to them as recruitment/invitation tiools, it does not speak to the intent of the larger WC site.  Mind you I would say that even if not the main intent, recruitment/invitation is at least an ancillary intent of both WC and the larger Emerging Spirit campaign.

See, for myself, I remember Bibby's prediction and the Emerging Spirit research. I recall when Environic people said they were "potentials" and Wright questioned whether they were.... all in the Observer... 

So,  I cannot help but see recruitment.

Now, that does not mean that I think people were so silly as to think folks would just dash into a church, but I see the hope that they would there.

There was an attempt to inform them and yes, reach out to them, pique their interest.... It was to raise the church's profile.

It feels like lying, or at the least disingenuous, to say it was not in an effort to get more seats in the pews. I understand many accuse church of having hidden agendas, so why would I feed that?

The church, to the best of my knowledge, retained Environics to identify groups of people who would be receptive to joining us. They said three might
Personal Faith types
Community and Outreach types
Questing and Embracing types

So, "receptive to joining us" means something to me.

For me, when we look at research and see people saying they support respect for all people and not breaking them into categories, etc...That they, whether they attend or not, support who we say we are. Then IMO we should likely try being that or we risk losing that support.

The United Church says that it believes in a God who works in us and others. So, how does trying to lure people in our direction relate to that? How does getting an ick factor about the idea or word of "recruiing" fit in when we know other denominations call it that, embrace that? Are we saying they are icky to us? When we say that God works in Jews, Muslims, and those with no religious affiliation, then how does that mesh with "but you should come to church with us"? Why?

IMO The Spirit is everywhere. We never owned it and we cannot control it. We simply believed we did and could.

Why are we afraid of shrinking? Why are we even afraid of dying? Don't we really believe what we say we do? Is it not about serving versus "building"? Isn't it about creating disciples and not taking attendance? Is not what we have already done, a legacy we can be content to leave behind, if that is what happens?
 Do we not believe in new life from death?
 Do we think church is necessary to God or not?

How do we say "God is not locked inside a building". How do we say, "clergy do not have God on speed-dial" or "wherever two or more are gathered" when we don't seem to mean it?

How do we handle the criticism that we are all about numbers and money? How do we handle the critique that we say what we don't really mean? How do we deal with the accusation that we don't even know what we say we believe?
How do we answer the person who says, "If God loves everyone, and God is everywhere and I can connect with God anywhere, if there is not a literal heaven and hell.... then why?"

Maybe we need to examine who we are, what we really think and what we mean before we invite others to or try informing (or recruiting) people to come and examine us.
 

Then again, maybe I am all wet.

I think the broad public are largely ignorant of what the United Church is about. WonderCafe is informing them, and informing them is not quite the same as recruiting them. And if someone decides to join the UCC after informing himself on WonderCafe, as I did, great.

Moreover, if the United Church wants to be the grassroots denomination it claims to be, then it has to listen to the grassroots. An open forum like WonderCafe is an excellent way of achieving that.

In my opinion, most people are fed up with hierarchial denominations that are governed from the top down by theologians who have been stamped into uniformity and conformity by theological colleges, and force the outdated doctrines and liturgy they have been indoctrinated into on their members. It is high time to give religion back to the people, where it originally came from! And it is time that the public found out that the United Church is a truly democratic denomination.

Let's give religion back to the people.

Take it off the pedestals,

Remove it from the hallowed halls,

Tear down all Berlin Walls.

SG - what I hear you saying is that there is a NEED for recruitment and that WC can play a role in that.  That angle is not how this thread started off - it was to deal with the reality on the ground. Look at the page in front of you. Is there anything that would suggest that this is a United Church site without having to search for it or having to go to another page?

Kinda like what's on the bottom of every page already?  Minus the crest

Right at the bottom:

"Brought to you by the people of the United Church of Canada."

Aaron, what does the church do to recruit people based on your definition?

I'll agree that the emerging spirit campaign wasn't only about recruitment, but that it was a part of indirectly recruiting people.

Ministry and Employment is welcoming Bronwen Corlett (no relation to our Compensation program coordinator, Lee Corlett) into the Pastoral Relations cluster of our unit.  Bronwen's role is an employment recruiter for minsitry personnel for The United Church of Canada.

Neat, eh?

Finally, we have a recruiter!

Chemgal and Rev SD - "Kinda like what's on the bottom of every page already?"

Now realistically, how many people do you think actually browse to the bottom of a web page so that they can read the small print?  I didn't, and I don't think I'm the exception.  If it's not important, put it where no one reads it. If it is, displayed in a place and way that it will be noticed.

I actually pay attention to the very bottom of a page more than the very top most of the time.  Ads are usually at the top, I had to look here to see what was at the top, as the Lenten Daily Devotions is something I just tune out as an ad.  I knew what was at the bottom.

There are often useful things at the bottom of a page.  TOS, About, Contact Us, Subscribe, Send to a Friend, Share on FB etc.  If someone wants to know more about a site, it's the logical place to look.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to have the crest and UCCan with a link right by wondercafe.ca near the top lefthand corner though.  When people come here for the first time they would likely see it there before they would head to the bottom of the page.

Run! Run as far and as fast as you can! Ministry is a vocation which is dangerous to your health and well-being. There is a very good chance you will be abused, victimized, scapegoated, depressed and burned out! Ministry is NOT for the faint of heart. Anyone with common sense would NOT be doing this!

Please note I do not have any common sense, so I am still in ministry after 30+ years.

Lucky for us here on wondercafe! I enjoy the wit and honesty in your posts quite a bit. . . P3

I don't know which of us is the exception, but I would generally check the bottom of the page (especially on a site like this.)

spiritbear,

Now, we are closer to being on the same page.

Words can lift us up or bring us down.

If an employer, university, or a team "recruits" you, it is different than someone saying,  "maybe if you are not busy you could pop in sometime" or "you might like us".

For me, we are human.Yes, I said it, even church folks are human.  It means our brains try to "explain away" stuff, including our mistakes, in order to hold onto our established views. That confidence, or overconfidence, blocks our ability to look critically at ourselves and our own mistakes.

We used to be mired in all that "earthly/worldly" versus "heavenly/godly" stuff. So, we are not a fan of "worldly" words. Recruit sounds too corporate or too right leaning.  We don't believe we are more spiritual or better than those folks, we simply still want to sound like we do. We wrestle to reclaim words we liked and abandon words that we were not fond of.

It was easy when church ruled.  When we were the prodigal son or when it was simple. God was a man who lived in the clouds. Anyone not Christian went to hell. Babies were baptized to save them from hell.

We need a new range of language to articulate what is now complex. We have to be able to sit with someone who says, "why get baptized" and not fall back on what is easier.

We made those who were successsful feel bad about it. They heard us talk about people's cars, vacation home, how those folks were greedy, how rich people had a hard time getting into heaven, etc. They heard us talking about them. A large number left. 

There is much we could have learned, can learn, from those folks. (Everything from branding, marketing, advertising.... to vision)

Those prosperity gospel folks, well they embrace the "gifts" some have in thos same things. They make use of those gifts.

I personally have more faith in a restaurant that looks into who its clientele might be, what they want on the menu, does advertising, examines how comfortable the place is, how friendly people are.... thinks that their food is worth tasting....
Than one that is simply says they are open, has a Facebook page and a website and I might drop in if I want to.

The greatest restaurant with the best food, greatest staff.,... and no people inside will fail. There are few places that claim to be the only place in town or the only place period.

There is something good and valuable, meaningful and life changing....  in this faith in this church... we have to see that and spread the news.

If we don't or can't, then like that diner, the doors will close.

So there, the more evangelical side of me shows. Those who have been liberated often sing praises some who have always been free don't..

(DKS, I tried all I could for as long as I could to ignore it or deny it. I tried to answer a call in any other way. God is persistent and I have never been known for having much sense)

As a starter beard, RevJohns is pretty good.
 

I think it needs to be higher and more prominent myself. I'd put the UCCan logo at the top with the WC logo and make it a live link to a UCCan website. Not necessarily the main website, but one that is focussed specifically on educating those who go to it about the United Church. The blurb at the bottom could stay, though, to provide another point of connection. These thread pages can get rather long and it would save people having to scroll back up the top.

Mendalla

This is considerably off topic but the reference to recruiting reminded me of the disdain we as soldiers had for the lovely recruiting posters we saw, and the bright eyed young lads we saw staring up at them.

Here's a very sad song that always comes to mind when I hear the word "recruit". It's a very sad song if you listen carefully to the words, and it memorializes the Royal Newfoundland Regiment, that was wiped out almost to a man at the Battle of the Somme, 1 July, 1916.

It's derived from a much, much older song. The paradoxical relationship between the soldier and the recruiter goes far back into history.

More specifically, the Battle of Beaumont Hamel, which was a part of the Battle of the Somme.

I served the United Church in Beaumont, Newfoundland for 3 years. It was named after the battle.

I imagine you've been to a few July 1 memorials then

For a second there Mendalla I thought you were taking about Rev John's beard. 

Rich blessings.

So, for those who "recruit" is icky or has negative connotations, what word do you use to mean the same thing but as a positive?

That's really the 64 dollar question.

I mean I fully understand that my purely emotional response to the word is biased, and doesn't really reflect the precise meaning of the word. Logically there really isn't, or shouldn't be a negative connotation.
 

And to further muddy the waters, it's  even more complicated than that, because for me the word isn't just negative. When I hear it I feel somewhat sad, somewhat proud, somewhat angry, somewhat wistful, even somewhat, I don't know.... bittersweet?
 

I guess it's really hard to put into words. It's kind of like the phrase "brothers in arms", which for most people would seem to be a happy phrase, but which for me, and for many of my fellow soldiers and veterans, has a very deep and profound sadness about it.
 

Yeah I'm a bit of a mess sometimes. Sorry for derailing things.

Hi Witch,

After seven years on the Rock it was difficult to readjust to July 1 being Canada Day.

Seven years later it is still difficult not to start  Canada day thinking about every community devastated by the horror that fell upon the Royal Newfoundland Regiment. at Beaumont-Hamel.

And the one place I will never go in town on July1 is the Earl Haig Family Fun Park.

For those unaware of the Battle of Beumont-Hamel:

http://theindependent.ca/2011/06/28/the-battle-of-beaumont-hamel-revisited/

The battle was felt in every community.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I don't think you can get a beard more prominent than John's (maybe if it was all white like Santa's or something). My beard could be described as needing to be higher and more prominent but then Mrs. M. would start leaving hints like the beard trimmer sitting out on the counter.

Mendalla

I'm not sure it's so much icky or negative for me as not quite the right word. "Recruiting"  generally has the meaning of finding someone to fill a specific role like becoming a soldier or general manager of a corporation. When you're trying to put bodies into seats and money on to collection plates (and, dare I say, this suggestion may be even less popular around here), you are ... marketing.

Mendalla

I went to one of those training sessions, and it wasn't necessarily about going out and finding the people - it was about welcoming them once they had arrived (and offering programs that might be attractive to them). To me, that's more like having benefits included in the job posting.

I wish more congregations took helping members grow as disciples seriously.  The unwillingness or inability of the United Church to do this is a contributing factor to where we are at as a denomination.

Discipling may be a very important task for us if we are looking at death as a denomination.  The discipling process could produce seeds for new congregations sharing the spirit of inclusiveness of the UCC.

Witch, let me say thank you. I value the sharing. We use words often not knowing how another hears them. Without people being open and honest, we may never know. Sometimes our words are so heavy on them, we learn why they left when they are gone...

There are many who have emotional, often negative or painful stirrings from words.

All we have to look at is the numbers who hear the shaming and guilt they once knew in words we still use readily.

----

Mandella, Just a question, doesn't everyone have a role in church? I would agree it is marketing.

----

somegalfromcan, Learning to welcome folks kind of assumes there might be someone from the endeavour or "initiative".

----

Jim Kenney, I believe that is a large part of what we are called to do, creating disciples. As a disciple, I can only reach ___ number of people. If I create other disciples that number grows substantially. Jesus, himself, used discipleship to spread the message. Had he not, we may not have ever heard of him.

Indeed. In Newfoundland July 1 is more Memorial Day than Canada Day. At the very least, the two occasions are very mixed and combined. It creates an interesting mood, partly because there are still Newfoundlanders (not all of the older generation) who aren't convinced that becoming part of Canada was a good thing.

Mendalla,

Looking back at what you said, I saw, "bodies into seats and money on to collection plates"

There I would say that is not really recruiting.
 

It is more "survival" than growth. It is more "appearances" than substance. And more about "using" than serving.

It is more "what you can do for us" than "what we can do for you".

Military, corporate, academic, sport... recruiting is focused on letting you know what benefits you will get from enlisting, working here, learning here, playing here...
 

Imagine the military saying "our goal is more bodies" or a university saying 'we want your money".

Emerging Spirit research said folks think we want something from them, largely money. So, how are they wrong when it is about "bodies into seats and money on to collection plates"?

The United Church of Canada contracted with a diversity of marketing resources to better position the brand for the consideration of a target demographic. Perhaps this was done with no determination to elicit "purchase", but, I suspect, the hope was present at the very heart of it all.

I most often wonder why we made resort to market strategies when what is wanted is a renewed commitment to the precepts and practices of baptism, which brings forward a renewed personal and corporate determination to faithful public witness. This is a zero budget process requiring only a shift in priority and determination; from fitting in with the host culture to standing out from the host culture with an alternative.

My understanding of outreach is rooted in the story of Jesus teaching in a house. That house was full and there were crowds standing all around. From this I understand that something is happening in the house where Jesus is present. This something has a powerful effect on the curiosity of a people languishing in an an exploitative and oppressive social milieu. Stories about what is happening in the house, where Jesus is present, circulate, and interest in the house increases.

The gospel is not given to equip us for a succesful negotiation of existing religious and political structures. The gospel calls us out of those structures, into a personal and shared experience of transformation (discipleship as above), and back into the world as carriers of Grace, by which those suffering under the oppressive weight of world structures are relieved and liberated. This is why the world structures refused Jesus then, and, in my opinion, nothing has changed.

And me Mendalla I can't grow a beard at all. I've tried, but the most I can get is six o'clock shadow.

Rich blessings.