Kimmio

Have you personally ever confronted a hooker about what she was doing?  The few I knew were from some years ago in that bar I mentioned, restaurant tavern with a club  downstairs, pool,darts, karaoke etc. They were young but tough as nails. I wouldn't dream of letting on that I knew what they were doing. I might get my face smashed in.

 

Chansen or somebody upthread mentioned something about human nature (re men)   being like it is and we can't change it. I think I have to agree with that.  Traditionally I think fathers have always promoted  their sons to have  sex at a young age. Its something for a boy  to brag about. 

 

"Traditionally", maybe. Well, it doesn't have to be that way. No. I won't resign to that anyway. It's like saying religious attitudes can never change, women can't vote, laws can't be revised, curriculum can't be updated, men can't look after kids,LGBT people can't marry, ethnicities can't mix, but over generations things change. They won't if you say, "it is what it is and it will always be." The reason you and I are here, talking with men, not segregated and chained to the kitchen, is because things change. We have further to go.

What the hell?!?

 

Where did you grow up, where that happened?

 

I've heard of it happening too. Here in Canada. Even fathers renting their sons prostitutes for their first time.

Where are you hearing that? Are you reading Playboy for the articles?

 

How can I take you seriously when you come up with stuff like that? You're making shit up again.

 

No. I'm not making it up. They might have been.

Young age- like 16-17.

It's called "policy making by personal anecdote". I hear it works really well...somewhere.

 

Kimmio, you haven't raised children, I don't think. Individual people are not going to change cultural expectations about gender. Having known violence myself, I very deliberately raised my son to be extremely gentle. Unanticipated consquence was that he spent his childhood defending against charges that he was gay...

 

George, when I refer to Kindom, I'm referring to the here and now, as well. I just don't know how we get to there from here. And I'm not a fan of commodification of humans, but I don't specifically get excited about sexual commodification versus any other type of categorization of worker as interchangeable "capital" widget.

In my experience, and I grew up in a world class city- guys are not generally 'nice'. Doesn't apply to all, of course. But some attitudes need to change.

The anecdotes are reflected by the statistics. I'm glad you raised your son well.

Yeah.  She prefers to dehumanize such people.

 

Again, unless you grew up in the Kingston Pen, this simply isn't true. Most guys are good. Most guys aren't looking to buy sex, or rape women. These things are still the exception.

 

You can't just start throwing accusations like this around. This is insane. I can not believe I have to type out that most guys are good people.

 

And people who patronize prostitutes are not necessarily bad people. There are people living in sex-less marriages for a variety of reasons, often to do with illness on the part of one party. Is it beyond the imagination that we can come up with a good solution for this demand?

 

(BTW, waterfall, I really like the Merseyside model. Treats violence against sex workers as a hate crime, and I would absolutely agree with that, because it does have a very strong "terror-ist" effect.)

My bad, Bette. You're correct.

 

Chansen, I can't believe you had to deal with the statements about men and boys, either.  Inappropriate and unacceptable ...and inaccurate.

 

As I've said before on this topic, the temptation is to clump every form of sex work into "prostitution".  It's not so simple.

It's not just men.

 

And yes, of course it would be great if no one had to pay for sex and all agreed it was "sacred", however, does that mean until everyone is conscientized in feminist theory, they have to do without?

 

Thank-you Ninja.

I'm not saying they were all rapists. Bullies was more like it. Not all, but lots.

 

I've lost track of where this is going, but I'm with Chansen here.

I've met my fair share of jerks, but I haven't noticed that leaning to one gender or another and when it's out of the blue it surprises me.

Lots as in what, 75%, 1000 out of a million?

Hi BetteTheRed...

 

Understood and appreciated.

 

George

 

 

Well I live in a "world class city" too and I find most people, men and women are decent , nice people.

Kimmio, how can you possibly lump half the population into a not nice, bullies...... Group. It's bizarro time

I wonder how Kimmio would react if one of us on here who self-identify as male, said:

 

"In my experiece - and I grew up in a world-class city - women are not generally nice.  They aren't necessarily criminals, but they are definitely bitches more often than not."

 

How would that go over?

I did mention that I am a woman with a disability- so in the words of a former boyfriend, I wasn't exactly "primo" , even though I was cute, but he wanted to have sex with my hot friends. Got used, to get to them. The same guys who were polite to all the other girls- opened doors, bought flowers, were asses to me. My friend was raped by a guy in grade 12 at 15 lost her virginity that way. He bragged about having sex with her. She dropped out, became a model first, and a stripper.

Was told I should consider myself lucky- first called a "fridge", after " a whore". Guys talked in groups about girls anatomy, taunted. You don't have to believe me. I shouldn't have to point out, prove, or justify my anecdotes to you people. You know the stats.

And if it were someone talking about their bad experiences with women, or with gays, or with blacks, then their generalizations would be just as hateful and bigoted as yours are.

 

The least you could do is tone down your surprise when people object.

What stats Kimmio?  I've never come across anything that says the majority of men rape, sexually harass, etc.

 

Are there a bunch of men out there who do?  Sure, if you look at the number in isolation.  As a percentage, I'm pretty sure they are the minority.

 

I have health conditions too, the definition of disability varies but in a general sense I fit within that.

Chansen et al

Perhaps Kimmio and I are talking about the average guy very often found in a bar or drinking/drug establishment when Kimmio says they weren't nice. These places are meat markets where a  woman is  a commodity . The  men are inclined to lean towards being quite macho,   swearing and bragging about how much money they make, the women they screwed,   and how they can hold their liquor etc. , really quite juvenile and often ignorant, no class, making unwanted advances.

 

I swear the people on the WC appear to have led very sheltered lives which I noticed years ago. Most of the women probably didn't live alone with no family  in a big city at a young age. Probably  they lived fairly well protected from the sleazy city  joints  ((both rich and poor)  and  the men Kimmio and I are familiar with.

 

 

When you say men don't push their teen  sons to have sex surely you're puttin' me on? Traditionally the parents worry about their  daughters getting pregnant, raped etc. while  they let the sons have a lot of  late night  party time freedom. The son can't get pregnant. You know that....!!!!

 

Yahoo comments....lol..

 

 

I've lived on my own, I've been exposed to the creeps.  I know multiple women who  have to alter the way they do things when travelling for business to some northern areas in the province.

 

I don't stereotype the average guy using these creeps as the model.  I don't say most guys are like that.  When asked about lots I don't say something flippant like you know the stats.

It's also an issue when statements like that are made.  People's behaviour is affected by the expectations put on them.

Kimmio, I have no doubt that you've run across more than your fair share of guys who were jerks, or worse. That does not describe men - that describes a subset of men. To say "most" or apply your worst observations to a the majority of an entire gender just makes you look completely untrustworthy. If you'll say that, what else are you distorting to make your points?

 

I'm heartened to see that I'm not the only one objecting here. This is where you lose people, Kimmio. This is where people just tune you out, because they don't believe you. There is sympathy for these women in this thread, from everyone. There may be a better way, that's all we're saying. That doesn't make me a bad guy, or an "alpha male", or anything other than someone who recognizes that making something illegal often comes with negative consequences that outstrip the good intentions.

 

There is an argument to make prostitution illegal. You're not making it. Not while you're making sweeping generalizations and appealing only to our emotional side.

 

 

A blog and a Yahoo question? Are you fucking insane? You're trying to show me that fathers pressure their sons to have sex, and you do that with a blog post and a Yahoo question?!?

 

Jesus Fucking Christ, stardust. How the hell am I supposed to respond to crap like that? By those pathetic standards, I could "show" that men tell their sons that the white race is superior.

 

You can find idiots everywhere. Sure, some men tell their boys to have sex with anything that moves. Some fathers tell their sons to sell baggies of white powder on a corner. If you have something better than a stupid blog post and a Yahoo question, that says this is an epidemic, then give me that. Your post was stupid.

 

I made sure both of my children were supplied with condoms once they reached puberty, no questions asked.

 

That does not mean that I can make any statistical observations about how sensible women are about their progeny's sexuality.

See? Blame the girls for being harassed.

What?

Chansen, it's the 'subset' brothels mostly cater to.

Okay. Read that fast on a coffee break. Sorry, Bette.

Chansen

So sorry my post was stupid. Sometimes I can't seem to articulate   my opinions very well or I'm too lazy to take the time to compose them  properly  which is why I posted a link. I'm very familiar with the saying......"boys sowing their wild oats..."..which is why I picked up on it. That phrase has been around about 100 years!  

 

Honestly, it seemed like a normal post from you on this thread.

You're trying to show that men tell their boys to have sex with girls. That's ridiculous. Do some men do this? Sure. Is it a normal occurrance? Hell, no. That you tried to show this with a a blog post and a Yahoo question was stupid. It just was. All these exaggerations from Kimmio, and now you, are too much.

 

There are decent arguments for the side you seem to favour, but following Kimmio's lead and just proclaiming things to be true on the back of anecdotes is ridiculous and destroys your credibility.

 

Chansen

You make me laugh...!....my credibility is destroyed?  I shall surely cry all night....

Stardust, why *did* you cite a blog post and a yahoo answers page in support of your bigotry, anyway?

I see what you're saying. But not quite. Women have historically been the most oppressed group of people on the planet, and still are, across cultures and ethnicities- and still are. Even in the post-modern west, women do not have full equality. Men largely compose the majority of decision makers in governments, corporations, and fight wars. Women have joined in, and some have caught up, but in the male domain. This is absolutely true. So when we look at social problems in society- that male domain has the largest impact on how we collectively think, and what we do- in religion, in business, in governments, in communities- the most power. The gap is closing, but attitudes have a ways to go. The generalizations I make are about where much improvement still needs to happen. If men saw women as equals, I truly believe prostitution would decline. I do not hate men, I just wish those with most power would recognize the inequality and try to see things from this perspective.

Bigoted generalizations are no better founded by one's personal anecdotes when directed against groups that have traditionally been the social/political oppressor than they are against groups that have traditionally been the oppressed.
.
And count me as one who would love to see that kind of equality prevail. Part of that would include discarding such ultra-conservative views on womens' sexuality as you have espoused throughout this thread.

You can't see it. You just can't see it. It's systemic.

Your ultra-conservative puritanical views about other womens' sexuality is systemic?

double post

 

Prostitution is about women's sexuality? Really? I think it's about the money.

No, Azdgari. This is ultra-conservative puritanical. I am far from this:

http://www.snopes.com/history/document/goodwife.asp