In the case of indiginous communities- the unforeseen externalities...were the colonialists (my ancestors). They were quite sustainable until they were populated by colonial settlers. There are tribes (only a few) largely untouched in the Amazon whose major threat is from industry and modernization. They seemed to function well without the need to conquer. What do the modernizers, conquerers, we, really 'win' by chopping down the rainforest and building roads- at the end of the day? The world's oxygen source is depleted- the watershed is disrupted killing life in and around it- cars on the roads pollute. So, maybe modernization has been 'our' (the modernizers) mistake- maybe we have been the externalities that have ended up being the greatest threat to ourselves by conquering others- whereas indiginous communities saw environmental theats (weather, wild animals) as part part of a whole that they belonged to- and they accepted that as part of their way of life. Modernization without respect for the rest of life on earth turns out to be a threat to ourselves. Now we're beginning to understand that- and some seek to repair the damage- swimming against the tide of more development, more expansion. Had humanity evolved without exploiting every resource we got our hands on- by sharing instead of conquering- what would the world look like? Would we have modernized- would we have seen a need to- or have just been content with our way of life- trusting in our communities and respecting what has been provided for us by God, the Creator, the Life force, who put us here. Modernization was supposed to be this panacea for what was seen as primitive and rudimentary and 'savage'. I wouldn't say what we have ended up with is less savage.

Pinga said ..."Now that I know that Kimmio and undefined are writing a dream that requires a new form of genetic human , i can play the game.  (maybe Monsanto would be interested?)"

I would like to change the game a bit ...

John Lennon once suggested that we

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man

Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You, you may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you will join us ...

and further to that ... let's imagine that by grace we wake up one day and all the monetary debt in the world has been erased ... money  no longer has value and cannot be exchanged for service or goods ... no body has died or been genetically modified ... everything else is pretty much the same as it was ... no memories or abilities have been erased ... the technology is still the same ...the only thing that is gone is monetary debt. 

Just imagine what you would do ... don't try to imagine what anyone else would do ... just yourself ... what do you imagine you would do?

Awesome. Beautiful vision! First of all I would be very very thankful and overjoyed. I would thank God with my whole heart mind body and soul. I'd do a little dance....I would call up everyone I know and tell them how much I love them. Organize a potluck block party. Connect on Skype so people I know who live elsewhere can join in- i'd ask someone to help me connect via big screen. Lots of music. I'd learn to play as many instruments as I could. I'd write poetry. Paint. Take classes. Since everything is available for free- and people now have time- I would work to establish community connections so that noone is lonely. I would visit people young and old in the hospital and read books to them and keep them company. I would write kids books. I'd build an eco friendly house out of shipping crates- with help- and adopt a puppy, and have a garden, and hens. I'd help the neighbours move into theirs. I would travel with my husband and spend time with family and get to know his whole family. I would open a 'shop' where anyone could bring in stuff they don't need and anyone could take away what they do need. I'd have workshops for all ages, to repurpose old stuff and make it new again- I'd invite street musicians in to play. I'd build a stage and do amateur plays, and make props with repurposed stuff. I'd learn to cook something from every country in the world. I'd learn new languages...I'd go to war torn countries and ask how I can help them rebuild. And I'd keep learning how to make things better. I'd do so many things...because I would have freedom and time to choose what to do. Freedom and time and no longer a prisoner to money.

If only I had a hammer ... could we then pound some common and uncommon sense into a humanity that despises knowledge religiously and piously?

Such is institution! Many can't imagine departing from the way its always been ... forms a core process ... upon which those now out of it can look into ... or the other way around as inverse reflection ... Monsanto leading the charge with due care? I believe not ... a flighty faith like pre-icarious situation when everything is done for Quoine ... wee bits!

Ever wonder what connects those alien nodes down deep inside you? They be rank lines of thought (thin logos) what those that despise thought would call crappy connections and thus the soul was spent or sold for 30 pieces ... in direct opposition to the command not to sell a soul. If authority believes you a mind/soul/psyche entity ... they'll pede-eL your buttes and you'll see little of ID ... due to coverups and obfuscations at higher levels ... leads to internalization of wisdom ... heiros gammo ... sacred trusts? KISS you R's good-bye ... they just couldn't give a'dam or care ...

Presently it is good to question all things but cautiously ... you don't wish to upset the bloodied Q'ueen, form of Q-weenies ... lesser souls that add up  to more than those who' believe they hold the point ... thus thoughts are projected ... in form of myth ... a strange hazing (fuzzy logic)? Such leaves life as a hairy place to live ... until you discover a bared sol' ... Z'bra or  large bust as a BIG Bang ... a knock on the 'ead as mental impulse? Bolt to the eclectic imagination?

:) yes!

Sadistically speaking it'll neva happen ... :-[

For too many tyrants make too much moe-lah with war as it is ... thus on this side of the intellectual Wahl it goes on as monstrous ... until a rye sol' takes off ... thus the myth goes on ... as many of the warring factions dont accept thoughts readily!

Sometimes referred to as the selling of souls ... at great cost to the underdogs as castes ... just chit to the hie rupts to dump on as an imaginary support system that won't ever go way ... just watch over the next while ... like Roosevelt said walk softly and carry a big stick ... cross-wise for there will develope large holes as the Icarious melts as they loose interest in standing and take flight as angels and demons ... hubris will rein down ...

Things the corporeal isle-iterations will not observe as literal blind folk ... blinded by richess and isolationism that causes cracks in socialism and civilization as well ... such has been studied in the fall of many organizations based on avarice ... the excess need to control the entire soul ... as Molly've Kintyre ... Ba'aLs with a message when presented under cover? God doesn't allow dead men intercourse ... unless in abstract, thus visions and dreams of sugar bumbs ... twinned sphere's? Led to the expression deci Belles ... and these camp followers could deci mate an army ... with folk in thoughts ... about what can't be if you get shot doing tyrannical business ...

Tell me about the nature of fool's gold again!

what do you all think of our world leaders at Bohemaian Grove and the Cremation of care?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Grove

Aside - Did I miss it - why do you call Kimio (cousin),jae?

Powerful men getting drunk on a camping retreat

Which is scary enough.

Well more than just that, the cremation of care is a ritual in front of the giant owl who represents wisdom and knowledge. An effigy of a human being is burnt on the altar of the owl who is suppose to represent care.

So basically the leaders of this world are asking this idol to burn away their cares and clean  there  conscious minds for the things they must do for the world to bring it under one order 

of course they say its just all fun , nothing more 

I think it's because I am not 'brother or sister' with my non-conservative and not a baptist leaning? It's okay doesn't bother me.

Well they can burn big paper owls in effigy all they want that doesn't grant their wishes. The decisions they make when they get back to the office count.

So there's something in their ritual about protecting the trees- meanwhile they get drunk, light cigars in the woods , and pay homage to knowledge. What does that tell you?

I aknowledge these are powerful people with alcohol. Beyond that I don't see how effective this retreat could be in achieving the sinister plot you suggest. I don't see how this thing makes any difference to the reality of what goes on in the world- or why it's more than an elite camping trip- except who is taking over for them when they're off camping for however long? Do they even remember what they talk about? Do they all even get along? They talk to other powerful people and plan plenty of stuff we don't know about around boardroom tables and in conference calls and they make all kinds of serious decisions in their day jobs. Powerful people hang out with other people on planned vacations. Why is that surprising and who else are they going to be acquainted with? I know elite people schmooze. In this case, they camp out. Do I have confidence in all their decisions. That they're all good, transparent and they never make mistakes? Of course not. But their decisions speak for themselves. All is not well in the world regardless of a camping trip. Do you think if they didn't go it would change the reality of what goes on in the world?

This is the obfuscation George is talking about.

I dont know you have to ask George,  

personally i believe that black mass at Bohemian Grove is real and not just a summer play as they would have others believe 

Maybe it really happens but it doesn't achieve anything except getting you freaked out about it rather than noticing real problems.

And with all the troubles of the world the powers are out of it warming their weak knees ...

Sort of like the buffalo club worshiping the bi sons:

• One Jesus flaming with passion to light the unknown power ...
• And one thinking demon, thankful for the light to see where he's at in an impossible dilemma of life with powers of avarice ...

Both of these are probably dark power to those on the passionate wiles IDe ... just waiting to jump on someone's backside for something unknown.

Alas the authority didn't know either even why he was jumping on that behind ... and then it was gone ... the destructive power of unknown powers working fo monis alone and no Joey in actually learning about the Job ... such is common as a folked up John ... common with many powers of confidence up his ass ... casuing cramps in the anon-moving constitution ... it too is neutered of fixed in  sway towards the gifted ... by position ... beyond this ... myth ... stuff unknown ...

Yet with the roasted owl ... who cares? And wisdom whines for company ... in a world without clues ... just how you like it ... Shaken speare !

Gloöcken speil ... do you too hear belles?

Rael dingers ...

WB, we could learn what the roasted owl is about and where the ritual comes from- but even so these are a group of fat cats hanging out and drinking beer on an elite camping trip. Looks like a fire hazard though, the beer and roasted owl together. How wise is that? The trees and real living owls have reason to worry about those camping trips in particular.

No, it's because we're cousin personality types according to the MBTI. You're INFP and I'm ISFP :)

That's right. And I do remember that now. I'm sorry Jae. I got it mixed up with another discussion about the evangelical church brother/ sister thing a long time ago. Maybe only I thought of that. Sorry. :(

No problem, Kimmio.

(I consider all Christians to be my brothers and sisters in Christ, not just evangelicals. That comes largely from seminary where we have studied other Christian traditions, including contemplative, incarnational, and others.)

I think people are people and we're all connected..

I agree with thouse things but we all have a part to play in Gods Big plan, seeing what goes on in the higher powers that trickel down to the poor opens eyes and hearts.

that how the mob got taken down  

kimmio / blackbelt/othes?   so to make sure that I understand.  It is ok for someone like me to go and hang out with my peers to a conference centre or a retreat centre, but, it is not ok for people above a certain income level.  Do you have an income level that is NOT okay to bond with their peers?

what about the Burning Man festival.  I have often thought it would be neat to go to.  

That's not what I was suggesting. I was suggesting that the fact they go on retreats shouldn't be alarming and that it is not surprising they are with peers.

Nice.

I have a friend who went to Burning Man when we were in our twenties. It'd be tough for me to fare in the desert but at that time it was intriguing. Now it looks less interesting to me than when I was 25ish. The ritual stuff is symbolic. I was pointing out to Blackbelt that to get hung up on the symbolism as the problem misses real and actual problems in the world.


**fixed spelling**

its not the retreat that alarming, its what takes place that is 

Hi folk...

Obfuscate... to make a simple matter complex in order to divert attention from what matters  most in any given place of decision.

I say plainly and simply that something is coming. I define this something loosely as the consequence of our aggragate decision making process.

We, by our voluntary and/or involuntary consent, are shaped as consumers of that which the market makes available by the exploitation of our labour.

We labour to produce so that we may be rewarded by the increase of material standards. Who has so much as we have?

Why then are we not happy? What accounts for the billion dollar profit pharmaceutical enterprise now expanding its market globally?

Kimmio is well aware of her complicity and makes plain her struggle for integrity. So are we complicit, each and all, once we have noticed what it is that obfuscation has failed to conceal.

This world is being abusively used by hard masters for the sake of profit and power. Not only the world. Also its diverse peoples,  all being gathered in to the service of debt.

Political power endorsed by religious benedictions has produced our present dilemma. The operative concepts by which we have been structured must be radically questioned.

But we turn to discuss grown men playing self-serving games. We obfuscate.

It is not men prancing about in ritual that troubles me. It is ordinary persons working levers in high places. The emergent confederacy of bankers, politicians and theologians troubles me deeply. The idea of God authorizing the sovereign state to subdue and subjugate the citizen.

I see these things not as a believer. I see them as a follower.

These words have absolutely no merit apart from the merit of your own conscience.

It will do no good to bring evidence for or against the veracity of my position. Another means for obfuscating where the threat of truth seems set to overturn comfort zones.

There is a sorting in process. Some are clear in their determination to the faithful service of money. Others are equally clear in their determination to withdraw faith from the service of money.

The later seeking to redirect free, responsible, creative and courageous action to the service of justice.

Between stirs the vast majority, undecided and unsure, amusing itself to death.

I hear echoes of Dylan: "It may be the devil or it may be the lord, but you are going to have to serve somebody."

George

George, can you not see folks who see money as something that can be used to restore equilibrium and justice.  

I have no problem with a financial system, and the use of monetary rewards.  I do have a problem with the current lack of equilbrium globally regarding it.

I do not see the utopian solutons as being practical or implementabl ein our lifetime, as others have indicated it would require a reboot.  

I can think of situations where individuals have come forward to offer money to help others, to help ideas.  I see the kickstarter and indigogo as creative solutions around distribution fo moeny and non-stand ways to support larger projects and creativity.

Hi Pinga...

I see folk thinking that charitable support and encouragement may well obfuscate the will to power at work in and through the "patrons" and "benefactors".

Here is how I see the place of money. It is a substance to be used, misused and abused. Our present circumstance indicates substantial misuse and persistent abuse.

This calls for a radical change. First in imagination and then in volition. I see no indication of this at any normal standard of accountability.

George

The difference in the use and misuse of monis is the power of fuzzy logic at work ... sometimes called obfuscation ... a power provided by creation for the offsping of pure desire ... so they wouldn't understand God. Says so in Exodus 20:19 and ever since ordinary populations can't read into LOGOS as the word and it is taken as flat out and simple ... where as subtlely it isn't ... requires some underhanded thinking which is condemned by the desirous crowd that would sooner support terroism as terrorism causes fear and anger ... character or moods of the psyche that obscure thinking ... and thus it became hairy thoughts in light of Psalm 55:22 or 'Eire if you happen to conceive a few words of Erse that are hidden in common English as part of the derivation.

Such deep floes can often speak to you as flowering in the dark; once defined as amaranth, once as lil'ethe and another time as the lo'ta'us blossom of suble minds in convoluted dimensions ... too complex in that line so they just labelled it string theory and called it myth-Eire of misery trying to fathom it out ...

And the norm is to not fathom out profound things as we don't even believe the mind is deep enough to do this ... as we only believe in shallow things ... on the surface ... where we throw our cares (castes, as chit) as we can't seem to deal with them superficially and thus the rising up of the sublime mind that marketing executives make great use of ... and generally deny.

Consider, if you knew; what would happen to that click, or cliche? What is more dangerous what you know as little, or what you don't know in a stretch ... is that more vast projection of the abstract, or just imagination at play?

Hmm, how is a solution of a higher minimum wage considered charity or benefactor?

Health care in canada is provided through money through taxes in our country, I would like to see dental care be done in same way

Someone pays in those situations, the first it is the business and the consumer

In the second it is the tax payer

I see those who advocate for those changes as people seeking justice

Yes but ... the bootie is ... Beautiful Mind? A sight unseen ...

The government says it can't afford to ... being they support expensive habits (Duffy, etc) business says they can't pay as the executives (multi billion Ares) are poor from skipping all over the world looking for new homes for different seasons, and the church can't pay because both the wee people and powerful believe most of the monis should go to generating pious propaganda ...

This leaves the wee people that are extremely humbled into lesser thoughts about the Haute-in-Tautes as they're off on something concerning their own private affairs ... mental disruptions to everything other than them?

Borderline personaes as essenses of the spirit of these activities ... find great satire in the burying of the good sense in the binary code ... or what was once called the Golden Rule that is followed monotheistically in the theme: "I have to look after my own ass ... screw yours!" This dissonance grows if you don't know better ... and you know what the modern religion feels about the ancient belief on knowledge ... so they do it their way without ontologiccal consideration of upstanding concerns ... as personas shafted by avarice. This is a quantuum process and you can be shafted by dark forces any time if you don't know better than to hope to leave here into vaste "r spatial dimensions that are presently abstract ... incomplete in our limited thinking ...

Alas I'm not supposed to say such detrimental cynical things about the rich and powerful ... it is said it makes them sad or sadistic about lower castes so as enlightened I should arise apologetic ... and shut up about obscure things ... that isolated elite collectives don't wish to know about ... and thus the dirt remains under the infinite carpet that must fly because its out of here ... I was looking under it as a subtle leering into common dimensions of the sole as defined by mêmè space where a lot of muttur'n goes on in Koine tongues as John'd ... this is really commonly unseen ... as vernacular ... accrude language as spoken sacredly about the corrupted levite and dark Elite sides ... some times known as men in Black or Big Johns ... they outnumber the rich and yet these maases are ignored! derivation of this myth came from a vast source ... the ecclesiastic psyche that not here right now folks ... this occupies space underfoot ... very subtle ... humble too ... a peculiar entity! You know how authority is about unknowns ... they must be oppressed ... and thus knowledge departs us ... as fallout ... caste off chit? The network this chit takes is phenomenal ... not numinous according to certain Kant's on philosophy: the passion of knowledge and wisdom on broad topics ...

We tend towards specialists that can't relate (Classic Alchemii)!

I know someone who has been to the Burning Man Festival almost every year for years. She says it has become much more organized now. Not as much fun as it used to be.

That's what I heard too. Commercialized now.

These words have absolute merit within the merit of my own conscience & to my mind they bear repeating in this thread ...

• [quote=GeoFee]

• Kimmio is well aware of her complicity and makes plain her struggle for integrity. So are we complicit, each and all, once we have noticed what it is that obfuscation has failed to conceal.

• This world is being abusively used by hard masters for the sake of profit and power. Not only the world. Also its diverse peoples,  all being gathered in to the service of debt.

• Political power endorsed by religious benedictions has produced our present dilemma. The operative concepts by which we have been structured must be radically questioned.

• But we turn to discuss grown men playing self-serving games. We obfuscate.

• It is not men prancing about in ritual that troubles me. It is ordinary persons working levers in high places. The emergent confederacy of bankers, politicians and theologians troubles me deeply. The idea of God authorizing the sovereign state to subdue and subjugate the citizen.

• It will do no good to bring evidence for or against the veracity of my position. Another means for obfuscating where the threat of truth seems set to overturn comfort zones.

• There is a sorting in process. Some are clear in their determination to the faithful service of money. Others are equally clear in their determination to withdraw faith from the service of money.

• The later seeking to redirect free, responsible, creative and courageous action to the service of justice.

& I remain ... determined to withdraw faith from the service of money ! 

Hi Pinga...

I have no quarrel with any who seek justice.

George

Apart from the multiplied diversion to detail, is there any here who does not see that a crisis is upon us? That we are now called to bring forward creative freedom in the face of totalizing power?

George

Hi Saul_now_Paul...

Wow!

Then I guess you should stop complaining and start rejoicing, oh prophetic one.

These same questions might have been asked during The Crusades.

I guess Winnipeg is about as far from any rich port city as you can get, Jonah.

Saul_now_Paul: If you believe Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever ... and if you also believe that capitalism works ... would it be logical for me to surmise that Jesus Christ was, is, and always will be a capitalist?

Inukshuk : Can we take away the Capital in Crusades and make it a verb?

No. Jesus had no need of money. Saddly, I do. I can`t break a loaf and feed 5000 or tell somebody to pull a coin out of a fish.

But it is Christians in capitalist societies who feed poor in their own cities and in the third world from their excess. Who drill water wells and preach the good news. There is no better economic system to be a part of. People die from a mosquito bite or a tooth ache. People go blind drinking dirty water. But not here.

If, like Geo you have a problem with wealthy people, stop whining and take advantage of the system. Borrow all the money you can from them, spend it all, declare bankruptcy, repeat. That`s sticking it to the man.

Or you could stop whining and go out and produce something and get paid.