Here's another Theological question:

 

Why can't I just worship God and not Jesus? If your answer is that Jesus is God, then why do we make drawings, statues, icons to represent Jesus, when it has been told to us that we should not create or worship such things. It is one of the ten commandments.

 

If I just bow before God, without invoking an image of Jesus....isn't that more correct?

...when you worship there is no distiction between Christ and God ... Christ is created and created in human terms... we can relate to Christ, we ca not relate to God directly... what to consider is what is the essence of Christ and the essence of God ....not the temporal images we contrive of God and Christ... We cannot follow God, but we can follow God-in-human terms; follow in mind, spirit and heart, not mere ritual or rote

Christianity is full of rituals. Of course you follow by rituals, as do the Jews who follow the same god but without the idea that his son stopped by for a visit.

 

And I thought you to be a teacher in the church of God Arminius. Perhapes more study is needed.

 

Micha  4:  3-5

Micha5: 2-----

Mic 5:2

But you, O Bethlehem Eph'rathah, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.

If this means somone else to you. Please show who?

actually, I don't follow by ritual...

 

If there is no distinction between God and Christ, why was Christ necessary? By creating a lesser image that we can relate to, aren't we compromising God's power, by creating an image to suit us?

-- Can you come to the Father with out the Son. Are you saying there is no need for Christ Jesus to be befor you and GOD The Father. I would then think your off path .  It is possible then your faith is not Christain but something else. I believe Jesus The Christ is between us and GOD The Father . The Bible seems to indicate Jesus is the only way to GOD.If your ask if you have Christ in you, can you talk to the father  and He will hear an answer then I would say yes.  God Bless--airclean33

Yes Chansen. and there is a reason for each one. Do you stop at stop signs on the way to work? Do you obay the lights?

 

I don't take the Bible literally but metaphorically. And the interpretation or discernment of metaphors is up to every one of us, individually or in groups.

 

Even to the ancient Judaic people, their Holy Books were midrash, which had to be discerned. Biblical literalism and absolutism is the invention of a later Age.

 

we do not create the reality Christ --- this is done by the Word of God, we can exist spiritallythrough that reality. we do not exist spiritually through images or any human creation
the christian follows Christ, few Christians, if any, can follow God

 

That hardly qualifies as a ritual, airclean. That's a law enforced by state sanction.

 

If he bowed his head and crossed himself three times at each stop light, that would be a ritual. A ritual is generally a self-chosen and self-enforced act that often (but not always) has a religious or superstitious origin. A legal obligation like stopping at red lights or giving pedestrians the right of way is not a ritual.

 

Mendalla

 

-- Hi Mendalla -- I believe I see your point. Please understand mine. The Stop sign an the light are there to save your life. Do you think that is why God got Mankind to do rituals. I truly believes GOD has great LOVE for us. I myelf afer living here many years don't see why. But all He dose and had done is for our good. At a Stop sign there is nothing really Stoping you from Going through . If no officer is in sight. But if you do you may kill yourself or someone else. My ponit then rules have reason .  As do signs and Lights. break them at your peril it could mean your death.

in the gospels, Christ's ministry was all about getting rid of rituals...

Apart from baptism and communion?

 

 

And the 40 Day Quest in the desert?

don't recall his teaching or instructing followers to do these as rituals or ...for that matter... as sacrements
any references....

Great listening in. Sounds a lot like conversation representing a broad distribution of insight and commitment. Folk looking on and listening in have opportunity to reflect on the diversity, as each follows along his or her opening way.
.
Nice...!
.
George
.

also can not recall that as a teaching or an instruction from Christ to those he ministered to....

For baptism perhaps Matt 28:16-20 (v.19). For communion Luke 22:14-23 (v.19).

 

Well in Mathew it says to baptize in spirit ... not like what we do; and in Luke that was said specifically to his disciples for that occasion... Can't find much of it in the sermon on the mount or any of the teachings in John....

Generally, as far as I see, Christ does not institute rituals or rites (including sacraments). Christ's ministry generally leans to requiring mercy not sacrifice....

I an not a biblical textual scholar to speak to what may have been added to the writings in later times for whatever reasons. So in regards to scripture, I lean to definite trends as opposed to one time references. For example, in the Gospel's we are directly  instructed to "follow me" 20 times, and its insinuated often as well. I also find that in my real encounters with Christian reality, it makes sense to follow it because things seem to 'work out' when I do and they seem to 'work out' for others when I see them following as well. The latter in fact bolsters my personal experience somewhat....

 

 

Not a teaching or instruction, but a spiritual practice practiced by Jesus.

 

http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/religion-and-faith/agape-meal-love-g...

 

Are you out of your mind? If Jesus was against them, Christians sure can't shut up about them.

 

If light was arrested in a cold and psychopathic side of reality where there was freedom for men to do anything to the surroundings without balance ... would that heart warming fallout bring Levite to the situation? Good god what would you call that thing that was thought to be ineffable and infallable and shrouded in abstracts or occult things (that which we didn't wish to know) and thus the abstract? Would that approach anonymous? Things that drift around in gross soul autonomously ... creating RIFTS of laughter to those encountering these alien nothings!

 

Sort of reminds me of fraternity, equality and liberty when the equality part is stripped out leaving nothing but freedom to fraternize with any one you wished without sympathy for their wishes ... a Deis Mons/de deux'd state ... and why singular emotions of that sort recess into the myth or beyond ... so they can analyse the synthetic data from beyond according to an a'Palling Roués that existes in God's attire ... a huge dark fabrication that you get thro' only in a squeeze at the threshold ... what was called dagon in the OT ... where thoughts were beaten out of the bare cede'rs as rye ... that naked thing in theShadows that enticed Juda'n powers ... and thus mythical fallout in a round 've OEM'r ...

 

Where does the equality go except to hide in the hated mean side that is internalized space as described but insoluable in String Theory of Cosmological Weaving beyond our vision and thus the men in black out there messing around with the E'phraim ... it too moves like the devil as a forth coming dimension to allow for the extraction of the third han ... a pocket to putit in as a pundit?

 

Thus easing the unknowing into a dither (or aD ethe') that thin volume inbetween the pages where the ruse is retained, and said to be imaginary as neva neva land, where the individual imaginations venture forth (allé, or va) leading to a penne't a graph or image of things as they appear but not necessarily are as potentially ID wasn't! This allows for denial of alien things and excessive fallout as consequence depletion of equality in fey devices that are said to be ephemeral!

 

There is no searching for god's understanding as mortals don't go that deep (limiting factors) as interpreted for transparent Airs and UnSafe dimensions of those that believe they know ... ath'ought extracted from Isaiah 40: 29 that is viewed often with scued perspectives by various sides that don't allow for the integral perspective that is God's or what we call infinite or immortal. Did I say that neither Juda'ns or Romans believed in nothing nor infinite ... thus the legacy of love as nothing and far ranging thoughts on the matter were tried and oppressed thus causing eruptions of mental and emotional imbalance althrough the Cloes or the fabric of the time machine as described by Orsen Wells ...

 

It is something that cannot be bottled, Jared, or stuffed in an odd Lam for long or it gets Eire ... and is hooked out of here in the Arabic myth of a fullness of night as harem scarem, mortal fear of varied angels of differing hues ... like in the Jaqob ean shroud ... of the Cloes of time ... simply ridiculously sublime! But unseen unless you know your myths ... what's out there!

The Son is a person in the triune godhead, so logically if you worship the triune God, you are worshipping the Son.

There is nothing wrong with rituals and ritual practice. Aldo is quite right that Jesus really did not go out of his way to institute new rituals, but he also clearly followed those that already existed (e.g. the Passover meal). Ritual is a valid part of how humans, not just Christians, practice their understanding of the world. Even we UUs have them.

 

Where rituals go off the rails, IMHO, is when they become "empty", that is we do the ritual without recognizing that it is a pointer leading us to something more. When we make the ritual the focus of our practice and faith rather than letting it make us mindful of something more.

 

In UU'ism, for instance, lighting the Chalice is a part of our services, social gatherings, and meetings. We can do it casually, just because it is something we always do, OR we can do it mindfully, recalling that it is sign of our commitment to the light of truth, the warmth of love, and the energy of action.

 

Mendalla

 

Your point is also taken  Aldo. We are not those who don't understand but those who are to understand.

But we don't do it well under the roués of absence of knowledge ... something is just missing in this case a metaphor of abstract ... is that stew 'þ' ID or what?

 

The law of innocence: don'tlook, don't listen, don't say anything ... don't even think about your sole, saul or sun as the inner light ... sublime icon so thoughts can be hidden! Sounds like mon khe business to-me a boque case ...or book worm as a bote for thoughts ... vassal server?

I think it is still common to baptize "in the name of" Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 

 

Jesus told his disciples, on that occasion, to "do this in remembrance" of him. Those present were told to repeat some aspect of that occasion.

 

That's how I see it too, generally. But that's not all I see. I see some ritual too, among other things.

 

that is the most extended discussion I have ever had concerning rituals....

It's worth repeating.

I don't think Jesus put a lot of stock into rituals. If they help people to commit to good habits, form bonds, there's nothing really wrong with them. But I don't believe he instituted them, either. Some of them were already instituted and, for one thing, they illustrate points in the stories, but otherwise they're neither here nor there if they're just going through the motions. And they do a disservice if they keep people apart/ xenophobic/ authoritarian/ tribal (i.e. groups only allowing certain rituals among 'their own kind' or performing them for their own kind, or having a narrow interpretation of who can participate). I think this is too often the case. I personally believe Jesus would rather have scrapped them than have people one up one another with them in his name. But, I also believe he'd rather people do them if they find meaning in it and it doesn't hurt anyone, than be distressed to be without them. It's a personal choice. The "don't place a stumbling block in front of your brother" idea. For some, they're a stumbling block, for others, not having them is a stumbling block.

When Jah Sues come to the dark case of mortals (black, abstract spirits) hymn knew something needed not full quenching but some tempering ... and thus the irony ... as the vacant soul as Shadow needs to collect itself after the fallable period .... and in the humming or OEM'n there came a whine of delight in what was received! Sort of feint like a whisperings in the pine'n ... for what was mist from hgher levels that the Romans referred to as Uranus ... a plumb fractured thing, although righly upright with all the composable material generated to fertile what's under foot ... mahnours? The creative NOS't rheum ... or crappy hollow deck to some ... where illusions occur ... and later denied as unsubstantiated by people who deny the past in a round about of chaos. Thus the proof that it will come back to yah as a haunting ... credit to the Big dark Hole called mined ... depleted of emotion as that fell out into lowers wadis ... mayim? This could cause a splash and much spitting as proven by Vlad the Impaler over who had the rights to scro' up who from devoid states!

 

Literary device or literal censorship of understanding that is much more explicit than some possessive (proudly avarice-sic) sorts would like IT to be ... as fey, ephemeral thoughts free for the pick'n ... as intellect is out there by convention of mortal definition that could be wrong as human authority usually is for denying the small details like gnomes and gnomons ... where the phonetic breaks are in the Classic Word ... expressed as one word by Hebrews that would take a rest in their line of script work. O' the things we don't know ... as unconceptualized reality. Goad that expression drives me ... like a poke at the Pi Gust ... reach into the saul'r winds? Cautious now ...

 

Alas the soul doesn't know this without a story ... as in humane form this is just boring as the Cosmological Carp entering the field ... which at this point is not considered as we are suffering collectively from OCD as impulsive behaviour from the choqan of life ... after rejection from the wiz-eL'd side ... or is that wise auld? Another Classic err or just Ur stealing my thoughts ... another effect of fundi hiss?

I don't think I've ever known a person who didn't follow rituals. 

 

Almost everyone has rituals for putting their children to bed, and going to bed themselves - have your bath, put your jammies on, brush your teeth, hug Mommy, have Daddy read a story and tuck you in, leaving the nightlight on or the door open a crack.   Varied a bit for adults who might also add making the rounds, checking that the doors are locked and peeking in on the kids. 

 

Many families also have meal time rituals - setting the table, everyone in his regular place, waiting for Mom to sit down before starting, sharing something about their day, kids leaving the table after dessert, and adults sitting with their tea.

 

Probably rituals about arriving at work as well - coffee, read the paper, open the mail, return phone calls - before beginning the main tasks of the day - some people make a point of arriving 15 min early to go through their routines. 

 

Some people add a bit of meditation, and/or prayer time into their rituals.

 

while some approach God with ritual, too often the ritual replaces God.... ritualls of everyday living may be different from rituals in spiritual life
Quakers attempted to do without ritual, but .... well ... they try..

Seeler (the feint dealer in hermeneutics; apocalytic thoughts as they pop up),

Is there a medium between ritual and adventuresome activities like learning about things previously unknown and anonymous ... perhap even ineffable under mortal pious law? That could be a wiz'nd thought in Cloes Terre Tory, real RIPP'r!

 

Appears to be a large etude with may roots ... multiple entendres confined to the ritual of intent ... Eris in fabrication? Some would say hairy if they wouldn't go there ...

 

The Newfies even named a place Harry's Hole which caused great consternation and retraction of the name for a bit until people wished it restored as it was ... as a great stimulation for illicit converstions about sects as metaphor for something entirely out of this world ... like a state of mind! This with a great deal of heave'n and disturbance in space called dissonance in a hole called-Ron in Eire ... as an Ecclesiastic dimple ... these occur when encounterinf slippery substances of mind ... otherwise called Ba Nanna Arias ... causing screams of pro testing 've falls ... but the grand mother of all falls will arise contrary to Roman wishes ... the wise-ended psyche? The Sloe and easy Jinn as the fibre of the story is rove'n as String Theory about mental conjectures in a field where mental in-substantial material is denied as Dark Energy, or just what we don't know!

 

What's the odds? Seems to me to be gross ... considering we didn't wish to know in the first place in thy's Tory (Torah) ... that passes Tue ... as sacred dimension!

incidentally... for all their merits rituals are also natural snares... at least as history looks to me...

Like de Nus of the emotional mind without  intelligence?

 

There the emotional baggage unravels ...

I think we are a social species. The craving for community is hardwired into our genes. Rituals serve to bind us to each other and to God. If religare (binding together) is the root word for religion, then the rituals that bind us are necessary aspects of religion.

 

 

 

 

I was thinking of religious rituals as opposed to day to day practical routines.

Some people are religious about their routines. I was brought up with strict table manners, dinner times, setting the table, placing my knife and fork together on my plate (on the right- 4 o'clock?) when I'm finished, ask to be excused even when everyone's done (mom gave the ok), no elbows on the table, napkin on the lap, ask for permission to eat with your fingers, etc, etc, etc. There was a specific way I was to answer the household phone and I had to wait 2 rings...many, many little rituals...as if the world would stop turning if the routines were off...she was a drill sargeant, by penalty of wooden spoon in some cases (especially deliberate cases) for defying the rules. I imagine early medieval religious ritual practice was much like that- worse. I must say I am loose with those rules now. I know how to behave in polite company but much of it's silly, I find, especially at home with close family or best friends, and a lot of it is cultural (incidentally, my step dad gets a rise out of my mother when he heats a can of soup and eats it right out of the pot- things like that drive my mom bananas and I find it amusing- what can I say?) and I imagine Jesus siding with us on that opinion. Brushing teeth, bathing, getting enough sleep (bedtime routines help the body clock adjust) is just something that needs to get done for health and well being. I imagine if people could be a little more relaxed with those things, learned to let go a bit, most would- because it's just social conditioning and much of it's not important to the big picture. I feel sort of the same about religious rituals. I could be wrong.

... what is being bound to what? sometime we become bound to ritual.... hence the snare.... the apparatus meant to carry becomes a cage...
I think we underestimate the power of rituals, but 'churches' and church 'leaders' (especially the cultic ones) have a knack for them and their power to control...

I have no problem with spiritual rituals, as long as we don't get hung up on the ritual itself, therefore missing the meaning behind the ritual.

That'd be a subtle backdrop on the stage of life ... things that literalists couldn't see as reading between the lines as laid down? Flat out as God's attire on the dark side ... naked as a Jah Burred, or perhaps Jaeþ'rr'ðin code ... chaos conjecture to keep the innocent out, so they could be numb'down for possession by larger sheep ... goadish but still not that wise ... thus escaped goað or the goings on overhead (aÐ)  ethe raely unknown to the lower realms ... as a thin medium!

 

Hi Neo and Aldo:

 

Yes, of course, what is behind the ritual, the meaning or purpose of the ritual, this is what matters, not the ritual itself.

 

If, for instance, the purpose of the ritual of Communion is to galvanize us into a community in the service of God or Christ, then this is what matters, not the ritual itself.

 

Union with God, and by extension with everyone and everything, can also be achieved without ritual. But the ritual helps bring the Divine Union into the foreground of consciousness.

 

controlled use of ritual can become art... its ritual that 'steals' us, that snares

as you know history tells that latter has been the more prevalent with attendant destructiveness....

Fir me the most important theological question is rather practical in nature...

Who's life am I going to touch today and how and I going to do it?

Hugs

Rita

I can buy into that one, Rita. The thing is, it's not a theological question. It's a humanistic question.

 

Mendalla, I agree, long before the modern "militant" atheists, there were other great skeptics who questioned the claims made by all the theistic religions.

 

BTW, I assume you have heard of the work of the great agnostic/atheist:

 

ROBERT GREEN INGERSOLL

 

Here is what WIKI says about him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G._Ingersoll

============================

The following brief bio tells us why he became such a staunch  skeptic.

http://www.robertgreeningersoll.org/

===============================

And he are some of his famous quotes which are terse and witty:

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/r/robert_green_ingersoll.html

===============================

MY PERSONAL EDUCATION?

 

The NEWFOUNDLAND, in which I was born and raised, until recent times, had a church-operated denominational school system, and other cultural systems. The secular idea of having publicly owned schools, libraries, sports facilities, hockey rinks, theatres, hospitals and the like--paid for mostly out of public taxes--was unheard of until recent times. With the clergy as the leaders, all churches, especially the Catholic churches, worked hard to be the focal points around which all kinds of communities, including cultural ones, were formed.

 

I remember hearing this story: The United Church minister, who baptised me (February 1930) was the leader of the group, including other clergy, that convinced the iron-ore company to set aside the land for one of best soccer and sports field, with solid bleachers, in Newfoundland. He turned the first sod.

 

Education was not compulsory in my day. Many quit early. But as a curious child l loved school. I was fascinated by all the basic studies including the good stories from all literature, and especially those from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, which were all part of the curriculum of schools.

 

Keep in mind, it was common practice for clergy: ministers, priests and nuns to teach the Bible and the religion studies in their own denominational schools. Of course, each denomination used religious texts approved by church authorities. Catholic priests and nuns actually taught some regular courses. For example, some were gifted music teachers. For a fee--which I think was part of the church income--they welcomed anyone who wished to study music. I wanted to take music lessons, but it was beyond our family means, at the time.

 

Looking back, I consider myself fortunate in that the new minister who came to Bell Island, when I was twelve, was a good teacher as well as an interesting minister and preacher. He had a sincere interest in young people and always welcomed questions and dialogue. During the week he was also the Scout Leader for the area. Each summer he took us on extended camping trips--where we learned about roughing it. His example inspired me to think seriously about becoming a minister, about which I told him when I was just past fifteen.

 

When I got to the high school level (1944-1946, I was 14, 15, and 16)  I then became very interested in subjects with a science-based topic: Geography (including some basic geology), maths, physics (basic astronomy), chemistry, biology, botany and the like. The sciences inspired me to question things, especially the Bible stories (yes, there are two of them) of creation: What! There is a god who actually created the earth, sun, moon and millions of stars in just six days? No Way!

 

Fortunately, the United Church teachers I had, including the minister were progressive thinkers and not in the least dogmatic. We were allowed, encouraged even, to think for ourselves. When I told the minister about my doubts, he assured me:

"The courses I took at Mount Allison University-- www.mta.ca --a UC university, prepared me for teaching, or any number of other careers. Check it out for a year or so, and see where it leads you!

 

I AM HAPPY TO REPORT THAT AT ALL POINTS DURING MY EDUCATION STUDENTS WERE ALWAYS ENCOURAGED TO: THINK FOR YOURSELVES! DO NOT LEAVE YOUR BRAINS BEHIND WHEN YOU COME INTO THESE CLASSES.

 

OFF TO MOUNT ALLISON UNIVERSITY, 1947

Wise advice! Not being the scion of a family with wealth, I had to work for a year--an education itself, in the school of hard-knocks; working at odd jobs, but mostly with a rough and tough but a good gang of iron ore miners ( $5.80 for a 10 hour day, 6 days a week).

 

My elder brother--the one who helped raise my younger sister and me, when our mother died in 1935 (I was five, sister three)--insisted: Pay nothing to us. Save every cent you earn. This will help you get me started and on the way.

 

HOW WE PAID THE BILLS

A year later--I had enough money to cover the costs for one-half of a year (not possible with today's costs). So, that September--at seventeen and along with three other student passengers--I set sail, on a fully-loaded iron-ore carrier, from Bell Island. Two days later, through wind and storm we arrived in North Sydney, NS. The harbour was calm. From there, we travelled by train to Sackville, N.B., the university town. That year, I earned the second half of the cost for that first year, while at university.

 

Thanks to G.O.D--that which gently and Graciously Opens Doors for all who seek help, I had the same good fortune for all the years ahead, including the years I spent at the Atlantic School of Theology, Halifax-- http://astheology.ns.ca/  and at Boston Univ., School of Theology.

 

Doors that opened: My wife got work as a teacher. I got the opportunity to serve in the army and navy for three years and I served mission fields in Dundurn, Saskatchewan and in Bible Hill, Nova Scotia, where Jean and I were married.

 

MY FIRST PARISH? IT WAS HAPPY VALLEY, LABRADOR--Then it was a squatters' town of 115 families, near the Goosebay Military Airbase. We helped organize the community, establish the first church, a union church. Look what it became from there.

http://www.happyvalley-goosebay.com/home/

 

Along the way, after my first pastorate--Happy Valley Goosebay, Labrador--on a scholarship, I got the privilege of doing a two-year program of post graduate studies--THE HISTORY OF IDEAS--at Boston University School of Theology-- http://www.bu.edu/sth/  The rest is history.

 

I forgot, to mention: I did have a final debt. It was for $125.00. My good wife, a teacher, who I married the year before I was ordained "loaned" me the money to pay it!

 

 

 

 

 

Ritual; that which allows humans to do things without thinking (thus prone to err/Ur) and thus that thought evaporates as ethereal intellect ... that which is out there and called crazy by authorities that would like you to do things to make them rich without a thought!

 

What does such power do? Corrupt thoughts as they are milled out! The immortal struggle goes on to know what is going on and the powers don't wish that ... could be detrimental to things we don't know about creating the expression the anonymous or autonomous mind that works without any input! It is a heavenly state ... and yet is that not an apt describition of mind ... a state that is beyond us with all the pain that exists and we're not cognizant of much of it?

 

This is something we must get over or through ... like Sisyphus!

Great post, Linds!

 

I agree with you. I don't think the great skeptics of the past were like the militant atheists of today. Some militant atheists appear to be as fundamentalist and absolutist as the militant Christians they oppose.

 

The present "Great Coalition" between the political right and the political left in the German parliament proved to be a great success because it rid both factions of its extreme, radical elements. The left wing extremists split off the main body of their party in protest and formed their own minor party, the right wing extremists split off the right main body in protest and formed their own minor party, and the left and right mainstream parties moved closer together, exchanged ideas, respectfully listened to each other, worked out a compromise, and governed jointly for the good of all. Now the major parties are no longer polarized, no longer exhausting each other in futile ideological battles, and instead get on with the far more important business of providing good government. Only a small extreme left and a small extreme right duke it out over the old ideological differences.

 

Perhaps there is a lesson in there for the Church?

 

 

I went to school in the 80's and most people I knew in high were atheists- everyone I hung around with. That was the norm. By then, if they had serious religious beliefs I didn't hear about it. Religious kids were the exception. They were around, but it wasn't prominent. That was BC. We had some religion in my elementary school in the 70's- my guess is the principal wanted the bible read. Other than that, I guess it was just not discussed much. Nobody questioned science then. Nobody I knew.