PP the question was on the authority of the bible and yes scholarship is necessary there.

Yes scholarship is applied to why experience Love Supreme - and many ways to go at that - from sociology/anthropology/historical studies, reading Whitehead, and then forming a theology to address the issue - one aspect is there is an asumption that there is a transcendent reality to be experienced and people do.  What then follows are models of understandings, constructions that seek to capture that experience, but is the same as, but lenses to grasp that - thus theology which does require scholarship and rigor - but that does not take the place of the beginning point - the aim of God seeking to be known - we feel that and then make it more visible through ideas and words formed by ideas.

It is more than a menu but like a good menu it gets our juices flowing in anticipation, then the meal reinforces or disappoints the anticipation, and makes the feelings created by the menu more concrete.  It is continuum. Not either/or.

Yes it is more than interesting - to do the cultural examination about the bible -it is one of the many ways to experience Love Supreme.

For me, it isn't "despite scientific discoveries" but they actually feed it. My faith is in a wonderful, beautiful universe that supports life. Science hasn't destroyed my faith, but taken in new directions.

And maybe that's part of the answer to your question - we live in a world of beauty and wonder and faith in some kind of God who is the source of that beauty and wonder is a response to that existence.

No real basis for thinking this, just a stray thought.

Mendalla

Same for me and, I think, for many other people.

Pan,

Yes,  you're right - the question was on the authority of the Bible. (It's just that with me, one thought tends to lead to another.)

(Perhaps there's a cultural component - my sunny Oz landscape leads to free flowing thought - whereas Canucks, in winter, are frozen solid to the thread topic)?

I'm interested in this "transcendent  reality" - and would like to understand more about it.

Perhaps the words we choose to explain it come from our reading from the Bible?

Moslems  try to explain it from reading the Koran........

But, isn't the experience itself the essence?

Getting back to menus.......

The are  faith fast food menus, easy to follow, initially satisfying, but somehow they don't hit the spot. They're often not good for your health - or anyone else's.....

Compared to those menus, Process Theology is like a menu at a French restaurant. The "food" promised is both attractive and satisfying. A menu you could live by.

Speaking personally, I agree with you.

Clearly, this isn't the case with many - as evidenced by the increasing number of agnostic  and athiestic folks in "advanced" countries.

chansen, you see this is a new move to wrap God in nature or to reject supernaturalism... it is old stuff.

The dualism that is seen in some folks religious beliefs does not have to be there. It has not been there for many.... that dualism of God apart from or above... the earthly and worldly... spiritual not spiritual... matter and spirit... sacred and secular...

For me, they have never been apart, they are one, and some have always taught that.

For me, we get messed up thinking the first incarnation was Jesus or even Adam. The first incarnation was light and water and land... and EVERYTHING.

Some humans have needed that dualism in order to say what they embrace. Some have needed it to say what they reject. Some folks need God to be THEM or very similiar to embrace it. Some humans need God to resemble that too in order to reject it.

Hi Chansen------Chansen Wrote----------We're still talking 400 years after this supposed Jesus and 300 years after the bible was loosely compiled.  By this stage, Jesus is already long overdue for his triumphant return.  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You have said something like this two or three times. Have you found something in the Bible or another book , that said the time of Jesus return, or the day of Gods wrath?

Speaking of time, religion, the Bible and science....

This likely is not some people's version of God talk or their stereotype of a Christian, but.....

"When did the incarnation begin? It began with the “Big Bang,” 14.5 billion years ago, and you’re the first generation that’s ever known an approximate date for the materialization of the mystery. Our particular “earth” came along around 4-5 billion years ago—much later, it seems. What was God doing 5 billion years ago? What was God doing 10 billion years ago? Was God really waiting for the Pope to appear? Was God waiting for the King James Version of the Bible? All of which happened only in the last nanosecond of geological time. God sure is impractical and terribly inefficient if His or Her goals are the same as ours. Who is this God?....."

It comes from Father Richard Rorh, a Franciscan priest, and The Center for Action and Contemplation.

Sure, Matthew 24:29-34:

Do you actually read the bible, or do you just turn the pages and pretend you're reading it?

SG ...

Sort of places God in the all-that-is category ... all inclusive ... even those wee scraps of life that we despise as we walk on eM!

Then if one reads into that old scripture about the command to Moses about his shoes ... removing the soles in Gods presence? Not a thought in the presence of pure Love! Now there's an errant thought ... as contrary to Roman Theology about walking over everything without care, nor thought ... antinomian behaviour that was denigrated by the church and somehow all bent out of shape if you can unravel the leagalistic language of church law ... I retort in preposture ation ... sort of a ridiculous ecco ... so present institutions won't know I have difference of opinion ... for such stepping beyond perceived authority could cause such a ham to lose his head.

When you look at the thing closely ... you may anyway for it is a ridiculous scenario ... with all the sadeistic behaviour inclusive in a garden that was to be cultivated in love ... and what do we have? Could we be on the wrong side of creation, or creativity as we didn't consume the fruits with reverence?

Sort of reminds me of that question to be asked by the child of the patriarch on Hannukkah: "What makes this night any different than another?' It gives pause for Light ... just before it hits Yah! Seminole emotion, as symbol when seen going ...

Hi Chansen My Bible has some pictures I can look at. Thank you for asking.So lets get this right . you have seen ----------------

   ²⁹ “Immediately after the distress of those days

   “‘the sun will be darkened,
   and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky. --------------------Boy I must have been look at those pictures.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I think on this one you"v got to be mistakin. I would not have missed it.------------------- ³⁰ “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth^[b] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory----------------------------------------------------------I know I don't hear as well as I used to to . But if a trumpet is blowen ,I think I could hear it.clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.^{[c] 31} And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.----------------------------------------------------------------------I'v noted you darken this , I would gusse so I wouldn't over look it.------------------------Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.--------------------------------------Would you think our Lord put this at the end , so we would know the generation that see this, will know it is the time He speaks of?----By the way Chansen if you would like to undersand more of what Jesus is saying hear . You need to go up at least vers--13 and read down. The way you did it ,many get lost.

Pan: you refer to our "purpose" and to "prayer" and say, perfectly, that prayer is: "deep listening to self, others, nature.  It is also deep listening to Supreme Love who is in all reality and has an interest in the world becoming more beautiful.  And needs us to actualize the action,  That is why we need prayer, for through deep listening we can flow with Supreme Love, and feel that flow in others."

Where we often miss the point of it all — of any sort of theistic approach — is that to know the unknowable, to find a purpose, to have any reasonable hope of prayer being prayerful, we have to know the ground we stand on and what we are. The Maori people have a great word: turangawaiwai — it means, basically, a "place to stand" and is explained with the question, "how are you at jumping when you are treading water?"  And there is the paradoxical principle of "kotahitanga" — it refers to an action more than a state: "one-ness"… "being one-ness".

To be "at one" with each other and the universe we need a place to stand; that place is self-knowledge… it is the way I understand "god" knowing our every thought, impulse and action. "God" witnesses the struggles, inner struggles, that other people usually do not (which is why judgement is such a serious, self-destructiuve mistake).

It this age of the avatar, we are encouraged, I think, to hide from ourselves, our pain, our vulnerabilities and our deep inadequacies: but ii is knowing these truths as well as our strengths, beauty and courage that makes us whole and admits us to the presence of "god". The denial, I suggest, starts with our sentimental approach to things like not letting children "fail" as if getting 4/20 on a maths test is "failure". Failure is screwing other people up and around. A 4/20 on a maths test is self-knowledge: it means we either have to work a whole lot harder at maths or accept that maths isn't our "thing": knowing that, you know that it's stupid to go around acting numerate in situations where you can get hurt or make an ass of yourself. No-one is good at everything. None of us is perfect, but if we stand before "god" in fancy dress trying to pass ourselves off as something we're not, we simply won't "hear" god… it's like joining a conversation then screwing earplugs deep into both auditory canals. It's like hoping for things that wil hurt us… it's keeping pet tigers in the livingroom to show off our power to buy whatever (or trying to upkeep a home or car we can't afford because it's too big for our real needs).

What's called "piety" can be all sorts of things. But pious humility can be a path to self-knowledge. The trouble with these sorts of conversations is that so many meanings get attached to such fragile concepts, often roughly. So "piety" can mean ostentatiously fanning one's ego with appearances of godliness. And that path of piety really is a waste of time.

You can't get to "god" travelling first class.

I read the chapter, and I don't see your point.  Do me the favour of pointing out what you think I've missed.

Also, point out a generation of Christians who did not think that Jesus would return in their lifetimes.  Every generation has cited signs and reasons why Jesus would soon return.  That's the real tradition of Christianity - consistently lousy predictions.

You could say the same thing about Economics, Chansen. Another religion, perhaps? I have long thought so.

Hi Chansen------ Chansen wrote------------

I read the chapter, and I don't see your point.  Do me the favour of pointing out what you think I've missed.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here Chansen have a look------------------------------------------------------

Also, point out a generation of Christians who did not think that Jesus would return in their lifetimes.  Every generation has cited signs and reasons why Jesus would soon return.  That's the real tradition of Christianity - consistently lousy predictions.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I can not speak for the other genatians of  Christians  Chansen. But as you read in Matt ,we are to be on watch.I know my genertion is looking for Jesus. you see Chansen the start of the things we where to look for. Was that Jerusalem had to be in the hands of the Jews once more, as it is today.That the sea would roar  as it is now, that the land would shake like never befor as it is now.That there would be rumors of war and wars as it is now,  That man would be getting ready to destroy himself off the face of the earth as he is now. That has only happen in this generatian .Not to worry though CHansen , I like the pictures  almost as much as the words.   Oh I forgot one of the last things was . There will be a falling away from the church , many would leav. I wonder who keeps say that, many are leaving the church and faith in GOD? OH  ya that was you. I don't know the day or hour Chansen . Only God does . But I'm ready . Are you?-----------------God Bless Chansen

Another interpretation of that passage is that Christians must always be mindful of, and ready to encounter, the immanence of God; God's presence in the world (= Christ). It doesn't refer to a specific event or time or make any kind of prediction, but announces that Christ is always coming into our lives and communities constantly and in many ways. It suggests that a Christian must always be ready to encounter Christ and that such encounters may happen when we least expect them.

Which ties nicely back into the original topic, which was how vital congregations must nourish personal spiritual growth, part of which is cultivating that awareness of God's presence and activity in the world.

Mendalla

Okay, your verse says that no one knows when.  That's all well and good.  The part I highlighted says "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

So, it will be in the generation of the writing, but no one knows exactly when.

Making the wild assumption that everyone who was alive in the time of Jesus is now dead, I'd call the return of Jesus about 1900 years overdue.  At some point, you have to realize you've been scammed and just let it go.

Yes, that people are leaving the church in droves is a sign of Jesus' return, and has nothing whatsoever to do with scores of people failing to believe the dogma any more. It really is a great little scam - to suggest that people leaving will bring about some end times prophesy, which the authors might expect to...lead to more people coming back!  It's brilliant.  Problem is, people are now too smart for it.  They aren't coming back, and neither is Jesus.  You've been Punk'd.

As for your other points, Israel was created by force after WW2 in what can only be described as a giant clusterfark by the UN, the earth has always been shaking because we're on a cooling planet with shifting tectonic plates and that's what it does, and using "rumors of war" as a sign is like saying a big yellow ball rising in the morning sky is a sign. 

Chansen,

I won't skirt the issue you are addresing. I believe doing so, or cloaking it, is part of what ruins the reputation of religious leaders and institutions.

For me, John and Jesus believed a change was in the wind. They expected some great upheaval. Jesus believed some "end" was near. The early church was rooted in that anticipation. Paul says "the appointed time has grown very short".

Yet, that is a saying right out of Daniel. In fact, Jesus saying a foreign power would invade and violate the Temple, again comes right out of Daniel. You see, the Jews were always in a state of waiting and anticipation... it was right around the corner.

The rebellion in 66 led to the destruction of the Temple in 70 and it ran until 74. Look at the time of the early writing, look at the environment they wrote in or what was in recent memory. "This is coming true!!!!" if Jesus really said it. Or, they put it in his mouth to say, "He said it. And it is happening NOW!!!..."

When it did not happen, they had to reassess. The church in its roots is apocalyptic. Yet, what does that mean? Is it a shift, a change, a different way... or is it the end of the world? Apocalyptic is a spectrum. The church has done that reassessment many times. Luther thought he was living in the end times. The Anabaptists were very apocalyptic. The Puritans, the Shakers.... the Mormons... the Seventh Day Adventists, the Pentecostals... Jehovah Witnesses....

Some people said the civil war in England was "a sign". Then the American Revolution.... the American Civil War, WWI, WWII....The Six Day War...the millenium...

Christianity has had gentle and hard apocalyptic types. As time passes some are less apocalyptic and others are moreso and are looking for signs everyday. Personally, I do not stay up late worrying about Jesus coming back.

 "The Kingdom of God is at hand" and "before this generation shall pass" mean something.  What? For some, it means making end times prophecy. For some, like yourself, it means "wrong" and a "fraud" and the whole thing is a "sham". It runs the gamut.

For someone like myself, I believe it means the time for change it is ALWAYS at hand.

Ah SG,

But in a brutal state of mind set on aggression instead of cooperation ... is this a mental state difficult to get thro'?

Some gathering of thought required ... and the brutal type doesn't like thinkers ... they don't mix well and thus the conflict except in a rare few ... remnant of the medium, infinite stretches on either side of IT ... superficially, or subliminally with the head down pose ... embarassed with the role models in the paradigm?

Just look around at those that follow the commandment of the Roman Gods blindly: "Don't think!"

And what do we do? Separates the sheep from the goað's ah? As we few press onward in thin Ayres, unwhetted by medium of mind in a fluid state ...

One dualism in our thinking that I believe we can't do without is the one between actual human virtue and vice.  Without a virtuous context, we would not be able to reflect on our life experiences, much less on whether or not there is a God, or the nature of that God. 

This is true in spite of the fact that these words have often been taken hostage and exploited ( e.g. by wealthy white heterosexual males who define virtue in their own images and vice in the images of those they would conquer) with a view to building empires rather than communities that are safe for all.

This particular duality is also integral to the theme in the O.P. of personal piety (spirituality).  Perhaps it's only when that integrity gets fiddled with that we start to see spiritualities which are, for example, unconcerned with just relations between persons, or social activisms which are unconcerned with whether or not their motives and means are vicious.

Today's e-message from L'Arche (below) struck me as a partial answer to what you were saying above, Sigh,.  One of the benefits of having solitary, heart-to-heart time with God is that, in the process, we learn how to love better. If we never retreat from the front lines, it can seem like we're getting a lot done, but we're likely missing a lot as well, in terms of what people are actually needing from us.

Hi Sigh,

Today's e-quote from Jean Vanier reminded me of this whole topic so I'm passing it on.

Sighsnoodles

("Hey, gang, look! I'm replying to some one called Sighsnoodles! No, really!")

Your post, as your posts often do, rings with the clarity that brings forth the "Wish I had posted that" feeling.

In sum:

(Dolefully) " Yes, gang I know...the happy genius thing....)

The two posts - sighsnoodles and rishi indicate two opposing spiritual ideas.  Rishi in his quote fro Vanier suggest prayer is efficacious.  And if one takes seriously a relational world, that which is is a product of many influences, then prayer is efficacious.  This does not mean being on the front lines is not necessary, but the two go together.  Vanier is clear that prayer helps his community and is valued as action.

The opposing view is wedded to positivism.  Only that which we see is real.  It is an either/or stance.

The question is what is more true to reality? And that is the basic issue in how we understand the actions of God.

God works through the world as it is to lure it to where it could be.  This means action of both prayer and frontlines is needed.  Lifting up the world in prayer gives focus for action - we at a distance are influenced ( In science the question is influence at a distance and the strapp theory suggests it is possible)