Sorry, the comentary is not mine...I took it off facebook....did a cut and paste .....I just wanted the link.....I was just looking for folks comments....

Jobam - I couldn't find anything about Sunday Supply rates.  Could you please fill me in?   What they were, and what they have increased to?

http://www.united-church.ca/files/communications/newsletters/connex_2013_issue35_xtra.pdf

THe schedule itself is up on the website:

 

To clarify: The Salary and Allowances Schedule applies only to recognized ministry personnel, as there is no policy that allows the General Council Office to dictate to pastoral charges what to pay lay personnel. (This has always been the case.)

Lay personnel are governed by the provincial labour laws in which the pastoral charge is located.

Definitions for ministry personnel have become more clearly defined, however, ahead of the compensation changes that are anticipated in 2015.

Questions are welcomed at MinistryandEmployment@united-church.ca!

    If I am reading this correctly, this is the schedule for pulpit supply:

OrderedMinistry	$194 per day	Calculation is based on Category F Ordered Ministry annual salary divide by 52 (weeks) divide by five (days) plus 20% for housing.
RDLM*	$188 per day	Calculation is based on Category F Recognized Ministry annual salary divide by 52 (weeks) divide by 5 (days) plus 20% for housing.
Student	$151 per day	Calculation is based on Step 2 Student annual salary divide by 52 (weeks) divide by 5 (days) plus 20% for housing

Sorry it is so big.  If I understand it correctly I would be entitled to $188 per day.  That is, unless a LLWL (LIcensed Lay Worship Leader) is paid differently than a RDLM.  In the past the Presbytery has always paid a trained lay person the same as ordained clergy for doing the same job - leading in worship.   There was a minimum; some churches paid more; some pastoral charges with more than one point tacked on an extra $35 for the extra service.    While I appreciate the extra pay (if I am interpreting this right), I'm wondering if it might backfire on me.  I did two services last Sunday and received less than $188 - but there were a total of less than 60 people combined in the two churches.   Considering that some of these were couples, and one woman gave her widow's mite, I really don't think there would be much more than $200 on the offering plate.   They might decide that they can't afford to pay the minimum - and not have a service when their minister is away.   On the other hand, if the minimum doesn't apply to me, I might be busier as churches might choose a LLWL over an ordained minister.

seeler, officially the LLWL is not in the same category as RDLM.  A presbytery or congregation may set that as their policy if they see fit.

 

Martha,

the wording in previous years has been task oriented not position oriented for pulpit and weekend supply.  the operating assumption wherever I have had the discussion is that it thus applied to anybody fulfilling those roles.  Can you explain why the language was changed this year?

 

This GCO document's full name is the Minimum Salary and Allowances Schedule for Ministry Personnel of The United Church of Canada.

Many local practices have included all leaders in this compensation structure: Yay! That's the way to attract great leaders, ordained or not. If your presbytery has done this in the past, it's hoped they will in the future.

The costs are higher, because they now include housing (as we move to the Comprehensive Salary structure), and they are structured around time (8 hour days), rather than role (weekend vs. Sunday only).

These are minimum-- always minimum-- daily rates for a worship leader.  

So, if you have a temporary person in the role of worship leader, and they also are present for another full day of pastoral care, for example, then the rate should be the daily rate x 2. If they work 1/2 day, and a full day, then it's the daily rate x 1.5.

If the temporary worship leader only works for 1/2 day (say, ONLY doing an afternoon of pastoral care) then the charge pays 0.5 x the daily rate.

It's designed to be more flexible, and to allow the pastoral charge better ability to compensate a temporary worship leader based on the needs of the charge.

Let me say this finally the correct min  and I have no trouble having different rates for others.  I have more education and experience.  To do a sunday supply it is at least 10 hours. the old rate had me getting $15 an hour at max.  Thus weekend supply should be 2x 194.

I know we are to be paid milage but many times even with I would get $150 - Except when I do it for a friend I find the amount an insult.

I'm RDLM, and I am ok with getting a bit less, exactly for the reasons Pan gave. 

nice that the amounts got bumped up though. 

I think that for the reasons given above, I'll content myself with whatever the local churches offer to pay me.   And I will continue to read, study, participate in seminars and courses, and spend 12 to 15 hours a week in preparation and leadership.  And while I in no way compare myself to ordained or designated ministers, I do feel that I do a good and worthwhile job - and I always believed in 'equal pay for equal work'. 

UU'ism has similar practices, really. The UUA has a guideline (that churches with a UUA ordained minister are expected to follow) for paying ordained clergy for supply. It is, IIRC, around $200 for a Sunday.

 

However, lay supply can be anything from volunteer (as it normally is when a member of our fellowship leads worship in our fellowship) to the same rate as clergy. I've only been paid once for being a worship leader, when I was invited to lead worship at a nearby fellowship that is lay-led. It was, IIRC, a $150 honorarium. Not sure how that works out time-wise because I don't count the hours that I spend on worship prep.

 

Mendalla

 

Don't you just love it when MEPS says "It's not our responsibility and we never had any authority anyway"? Even though, for years the previous schedules (which have now been conveninetly removed from the national web page) offered quidance for remuneration? No, it hasn't always been the case. That's a clever re-writing of history. And even better, don't you love it when they don't tell us they are going to get all narrow on us and don't tell us what they are doing and why and leave us all to try and figure it out on our own? "Lay personnel are goverened by provincial labour laws?" I can just see THAT going over well. More accurately, as non-Ministry Personnel such as licensed lay worship leaders are recognized and credentialed by the presbytery, then it should be the presbytery which sets minimums  as guidance. Provincial labour laws?  I can hear the laughter in the ministry as we speak. And I see another item for the next E & S Commission meeting. BTW, the implimentation of the compensation changes are apparently on hold until the Comprehensive Review is finished, although staff is busily beavering away doing all the necessary work. I'm not holding my breath. The consultation benchmarks published last winter apparently have been dropped, too.

 

What is your source for this DKS?   As a member of our Presbytery Pastoral Relations committee I know we are trying to determine what all we need to do as part of the implementation of these (very good imo) changes --  and when we need to have it done by.  I see no mention of it in the draft minutes of the May 4-6 GCE meeting 

http://www.united-church.ca/files/general-council/gce/2013/gce_1305_draf...

 

(However I have contacted our CPM to ask what he knows)

If you read what Nora said in her report in the workbook, it's clear. There was a benchmark to be in contact with pastoral charges with manses in March. As one of those, there has been no contact. Benchmark apprently missed.