IMO, within a healthy relationship, the two would work together.  The minister should be able to suggest hymns/songs and the MD should be able to work with the theme of the service...cms

Oh, unhealthy relationships exist in every station in life. Power? Well that is well... dumb. I deal in rural ministry and where "the organist" is the only one who can play. So, the minister has the power to pick a hymn. The organist has the power to say "I can't play that" or "that is too hard" or "I don't read music" or whatever.

So, yeah the minister can stand tough, weilding their power, and listen to a bunch of old folks croaking off tune acapella or to a hymn played absolutely horribly to the point regulars are covering their ears and newcomers are lookign at each other saying OMG and it has nothign to do with a spiritual experience. Doesn't do much for making the service something anyone remembers other than "did you hear ____" and not anything anyone new would come back to, no matter how glorious or meaningful the sermon was.

If the organist is too rigid though, there is always that guy who plays sax or the lady with the guitar or that fella with the harmonica or how about the lady and her accordion....

Best not to bite your nose off to spite your own face, I say

Work together or resign.

Well, if an organist has been hired for their expertise in music I think it is appropriate to let the organist have a somewhat free reign in choosing which songs to play. If it's just someone that plays the organ because they are the only one that can play in the congregation that is a different story.

Supposedly the organist has been chosen because they have specific knowledge about their area of expertise and more than likely the minister has not been trained in this area. I doubt the organist would choose to critique the ministers choice in sermons because he honours their chosen field.

Just as the minister may choose to invigorate the congregation by introducing new thoughts and approaches to the Bible, I think some organists will introduce new music and challenges to the musical repetoire because of the changing demographics of the church. Sure the pew may become less comfortable but sometimes we all need a little "nudge" to get us over our set ways.

waterfall, that depends on what you perceive the purpose of the music to be. The minister has training in theology and generally ministers (well, me at least!) have some theological purpose to the hymns I choose. Basically, I choose the hymns, the music director chooses the anthems. We both have the right (rarely exercised either way) to raise concerns about the other's choices.

My general experience is that organists/music directors are far more likely to critique the sermons than the minister is to critique the music. And why not? Everyone else in the congregation exercises that right!

Music is a part of worship, not just something that happens during worship. The organist needs to take input from the minister on what is planned and choose appropriate music; the minister needs to leverage the organist's expertise to make sure chosen hymns are ones that will work both for the theme of the service and the musical abilities of the congregation. If the organist in the OP is refusing to practice the chosen hymns, that suggests to me that the latter likely didn't happen. So I'm not sure that it is all the organist's fault here. Worship done right is a team effort and both the minister and the organist need to work as part of that team. As for "who has the power", the answer, in an effective team, would be both and neither. The power resides in the team, not in the individuals.

Mendalla

My general experience is that organists/music directors are far more likely to critique the sermons than the minister is to critique the music. And why not? Everyone else in the congregation exercises that right!

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 If that is working for you, great. I know few ministers that make music their career. More than likely if a church organist is hired they are chosen because they agree with the general teachings of that particular church and their choices reflect that.

Music is a ministry also

  And of course an organist receives their fair share of critiques from the congregtion. Most ministers do not critique the music it's usually their choice and ultimate decision right from the get go.

OK, so the organist doesn't like MV. Use VU or other resources. This isn't the end of the world, but if not played appropriately could be the end of a pastoral relationship (unless you are a choir member or congregation member, in which case you are triangling and that's not appropriate). I would also suggest that if the minister and organist are disagreeing on the hymns, that's just a sign of a much deeper disagreement between the two of them.

I work with an organist who uses MV for choir anthems and occasional choruses. We sing everything else from VU. And although we could easily afford to put MV in the pews, the Worship Committee has chosen not to. There is much to love about VU. Learn to use it and live with it. Life is way too short to enage in silly power struggles with church organists. That's something I learned the hard way!  Who has the power? Both and neither.

Unlike DKS I don't believe that every dispute between minister and organist over hymns is a sign of a deeper disagreement.  Sometimes a disagreement about hymns is just that.  Engaging in power struggles is silly - it's something I've witnessed many times and often the minister ends up leaving the Pastoral Charge.

I guess the way I see it is - If a muscian feels strongly about playing certain types of music or not we really don't have the right to try to force them into doing it.  Where is that going to get you?  I expect the same treatment around the things I do so why should there be a different standard for muscians?

Musicians are some of the most creative and innovative people I know. When they are allowed and encouraged, the beauty and the mastery comes out. Great hymns are written and some known music is reworked to invigorate. The minister and organist then compliment each other. The ministry becomes magical.

 Depends on the specific Minister of Music and the specific Minister of Word.

Our current musician has no experience of the UCCan, nor any theological training. She's quite happy to let me choose the music we use in worship. As she has grown in her understanding of the congregation and the music, she makes suggestions that I happily integrate into the music choices.

In the previous congregation with whom I served, I had the chance to work with two professional (Association of the Royal College of Church Organists) musicians - both of whom had training in music choice. I trusted them to be able to do the ministry to which they were called and trained. As we built relationships of trust, they accepted my suggestions for hymnody - including music with which they were not comfortable (eg. some of the world music that we find in More Voices). I was fortunate that they both recognized the gift in musics other than the traditional voice of the church... and were willing to work to find ways of introducing that to the congregation. 

But only worked because we trusted each other.

*grin* We *always* worked to support each other's ministries. As people - and colleagues -  who respected each other, any disagreements we had were hashed out behind closed doors. Until we could be united in leadership, we agreed to let a specific topic lie. Sometimes the compromise was more in my direction. Sometimes it was more in the other's.

If I were in a situation where the musician refused, and I deeply believed that a specific piece (or style) of music were necessary, I think I would ask them to trust our relationship - and that we would find time to critique what happened, afterward.

If it became impossible for me to do the worship leadership to which I was called, because of differences in the music, I would take my concern a) first to he musician; then b) (together?) to Ministry & Personnel. If it couldn't be worked out, then I think that each of us would need to seriously consider opening ourselves to being called elsewhere.

Christ's peace - r

As a member of the congregation, when I am putting together a service, I always pick the music.  I find it surprising that the minister would not have an indepth knowledge of the music and the hymns in both VU & MV.  I provide preferred hymns, and then work thorugh the selection list...with the choir director. they recommend anthems.

There can be a key word or phrase that is to be carried through the sermon into the hymn or prayer, or is a message that is important for the congregation to hear/experience that week.  Music has a way of having us sing into our souls the message.  It is important to me that it all be connected...and be connected well.

My experience and that of my colleagues says different. Often the choice of hymns is a sign of a deeper power struggle and the absence of the congregation (and either party) to nurture a healthy relationship. And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I think the minister should choose the songs and if the organist is unable to play them the Church should get a new organist.  It sounds kind of crass but organists are paid right?  This is not a volunteer position so if the songs are too hard for the organist maybe the Church should find another organist as the current is not up to par.

Having said that I do not play any instruments but I do have a friend who is a musician who can play anything. 

Hi, She_Devil -

It depends on the congregation. In some congregations, the musician is a volunteer. In others, they receive an honerarium. In others, it is a paid contract position. In others, it is a staff position.

For all of these positions, I think that a position description is helpful - including 'lines of responsibility and lines of accountability'.

I feel the same way about needing a clear position description for the minister of word, too. :)

Christ's peace - r

Our organist/music director is basically a volunteer. We do manage to give her an honourarium. We have talked about trying to get the funds together to pay a musician per week, even if it is nominal. Unfortunately, other priorities have come up that have pushed that idea aside.

Our worship committee plans out the music and hymns. The organist is on the committee, so can add her input.

Doesn't or shouldn't the organist have some theological training? In my church, the worship leader chooses the worship songs based on the message for that Sunday. The pastor does have ssome input but usually just lets the worship leader go with it. I attend a church that does not use a liturgy so perhaps it's different. Although, I used to belong to the Anglican church and from what I can remember in our church was that the organist chose the songs.

Hm... I thought in the United Church it was supposed to be the Session who wields ultimate power...?

At my own church, the Worship Leader is the wife of the Pastor. They work things out together. It's basically up to her to choose the songs, after learning of the worship service's theme from him.

We actually don't have a church organist.

I myself choose some of the songs that get sung, as I am the Choir Director.

She Devil,

You have a point and ultimately if the organist/musician is unable to meet the needs of the congregation then they need to move on whether they are volunteer or paid.  It is up to the congregation however to make this decision and not just the minister.  Bruce Sanquin has an interesting segment about this in  his book "The Emerging Church".  The clergy doesn't necessarily have to pick the hymns - one of the organists I'm currently working with picks the hymns and it works because he picks them according to the lectionary themes which I follow. 

I wonder where the WORHSIP committee is in all this.

I seea few issues-

1)If the organist plays the hymns for the service they should practice them

2) Dialogue and respect each other-there is often a choice of anothe hymn that conveys same message that might meet both musican and minister's fancy

3) Our church had difficulty with our last organist (she resigned). She thought SHE should choose all the hymns without input from music director or minister. It didn''t work. They were used to a team approach and that is what we have now.

This thread is so revealing for me.  For most of my life, the MD has chosen the hymns at all the churches that I have attended with input from the minister so that the service integrated the various aspects well.  I even remember the minister in a previous congregation making public comments about how well this worked for them.  I just assumed that it was the norm.  In fact, I've sent a message to my current MD to see if that is how it works at my current church because now I don't know for certain - although I do remember him telling me that he had picked a specific song because he knew that it was one of my favourites.  You learn something new everyday!...cms

I've worked with an organist who was excellent in musical ability but theologically illiterate.  Her opposition came to an end when I let her have her choice of hymns for a particular theme and it completely fell apart.  After that, she worked with me as I explained the reason for each choice.  There are many ways of raising and training your organist.

Always remember folks: lobsters on your piano are better than crabs on your organist.

The minister is reponsible for putting the entire worship service together.  She may get guidance from the Worship committee, and the CD committee if the children are going to be present, and she should definitely work with the organist and choir. 

As a pulpit supply person I try to find out in advance who is providing the music.  Then I check the scriptures for the day and prepare my message, prayers, etc.   I go through Voices United and pick hymns that will fit my theme.  I try to pick at least six.  Then I phone the organizt and we discuss the hymns I've chosen and pick four.  Or the organist might have one in mind - if possible I try to work it in.  Sometimes they have an anthem chosen.  Usually I serve in small rural churches with an unpaid organist and a choir of four to eight voices (if I'm lucky).  Sometimes there is no choir.  Sometimes there is no one to play the piano or organ - or the organist has a repetoire of about five gospel hymns.  Then i go with what they are most familiar with.

An example of letting someone else choose the music.  I was doing the summer services at a medium sized rural church (choir of about 7, congregation of about 40-50).  In several services I was trying to develop a theme around peace - which I planned to continue for te next few Sundays.  The choir director had been very cooperative in working with my suggestions.  Then she asked, next week could we have something livlier.  I suggested that she pick one hymn herself.   She choose "The Battle Hymn of the Republic".

This sounds very condescending. (raising and training your organist)  Why did you hire a "theologically illiterate" organist?

My sense is there are many factors at play here.....the musical abilities / nature of the minister, the theology/liturgy nature of the organist/music director, hours of work, interaction & communication, etc....

when i am doing a service, for example, it is generally with the youth or with m&s, or some other such item,...it is often not a traditional service.....in addition, we are not planning it in the standard core hours, as most of those participating are lay with full time positions...given that, we are throwing stuff back & forth via emails, with some phone calls thrown in. .....the music director is generally included in some of the initial planning,  such as...theme will be xyz, can you pick an anthem with that nature, we will be picking hymns...(sometimes, there is no anthem, but generally, i will go with an anthem for if I do i have a better chance that the choir will be present for the service.)

when a minister & music director have a good rapport, they have likely discussed the nature of the services, and what is coming up.  for someone doing a walk-in, the choir director does not know them or what will be preached / shared...and so, sometimes, just easier to pick and say to the director..can these work for you? which do you think will work musically..this is what i am after..and then have them suggest alternatives.

you know, i am aware that part of the disconnect is due to a lack of relationship....our music director is a talented director & musician who is much loved by our choir and brings out the best musically from people...they just want to sing with him....the theology, though, tends to be  more evangelical or conservative than my tastes are ...in part that is due to the music available I think, and also with what the choir by its nature is. If  i was doing more than a couple of services a year, it would be something that i worked harder to work throgh..right now, i am happy to respect the gifts brought and when called upon to do a service, to work within them.

I've known a few church organists to train "musically illiterate" ministers, too.

We are a 2 point charge. Our small church has an older lady as a organist and we always call her and confirm that the hymns are doable, the congregation is older and they don' t know anything from More Voices and Voices united is new to them too. There are times that we change a hymn to better suit the smaller congregation. BTW the minister picks the hymns most of the time.

In our larger church our organist is not church oriented at all and she will play, and can play, anything we throw at her. She is also the Choir accompanist. We also have an organist that will be back at the pedal when our new sanctuary is finished in December 2010. Yeah.

If you keep the lines of communication open you can pretty much solve anything.

I would suggest that for the organist in question that you supply the More Voices CD so they can actually hear the music in Question some of it is absolutely wonderful and yes some of it is ho hum.

I found a piece in MV when planning for the white gift service that is now one of my favourites:  MV 158 Dream a Dream

In 15 years I've never had an organist or music director with formal theological training, although they have generally been good organists, nor do I have formal musical training.  I generally select hymns that will complement the theme of the service one month at a time and give the list to the music director and organist about halfway through the preceding month. They are always invited to offer me feedback if they don't think some of the hymns are doable.

I have been in choirs for 40 years.

The final word on the hymns belongs to the minister. The church board can express their opinions, the organist should offer his or her opinions, and offer a list of music, but the final say belongs to the minister., who should vet all music.

The minister writes the sermons and controls the mood of each service. The hymns should compliment this. You can't have a sermon on pacifism followed by Onward Christian Soldier (I've seen it)..

I've also sung Plainchant in Latin followed by an appeal for modernism in the sermon.

I am aware of a situation where the MD refuses a minister's choice based disagreement with the theology contained with specific pieces. That's somewhat worrisome, imho.

oh yeah, i would agree m05...if the MD is overriding pieces selected by the minister based on theology, that would be a problem.

Our MD is a former ordained minister...cms (I agree, unusual)

I know of several members of the Order of Ministry who are well trained organists, with degrees in both music and theology.

the minister should not play with his organ in public

that aside the musical tastes of the congregation is varied both should compromise

the congregation does not have degrees in either music or religion so who cares

why does everything have 2 be  so complicated...................

It's a good question -- jesouhaite777...why does it have to be complicated....

well, for one thing....some number of people have invested time to attend the service...  they attend for various reasons

at minimum, if they have invested their time, then, we should invest ours.

i equate it similair to the youth in church school. if the teachers aren't prepared for them, if the rooms look hodgypodgy and are just that....without time or attention paid, then what message are we giving our kids......

there are days for casual fun, but at the same time, even those are organized to ensure safety and appropriateness of play.

so....why is it complicated..because the needs are many ,and we try to do an awful lot in an hour.

Then do a lot in an hour and give homework assignments ..... it's just music lol not calculus ..... humans complicated things beyond comprehension .... but hey that's how i run my satanic cult at home ......

Maybe the minister should be trained as a disc jockey.  It's surprising how many church reverends are 'disc jockey illiterate'.  What's the world coming to?

huh?

I agree with those above who say that the musician and minister should work together if at all possible.  My first pastoral charge had six churches (three per sunday) -- each with different hymnbooks (and one with no musician at all).  I would tell the musicians what my theme was and they would choose 4 or 5 hymns -- so each service had different music, and sometimes it had nothing to do with the theme (despite my communication!).  My second charge had two churches that were more like two completely separate pastoral charges.  The larger church had a music committee that would gather (with me) and choose choir anthems for two months at a time.  I would choose the hymns, and run them by the two musicians for their feedback and any changes.  In the smaller church, the musician was getting older and less able and it was very frustrating.  We'd practice, she'd "get it" and then when time came to play she would play a different tempo altogether.  I felt alternately sorry for her and frustrated that she wouldn't name her limits.  A partial solution came when my partner and I decided to start using music off of CDs for the "children's hymn" -- the music was from the Seasons of the Spirit curriculum, so it was legal to use...  We chose one piece to sing throughout each season (Lent, Easter, etc), and the congregation loved it.  The CD arrangement was usually good and peppy, and it gave the congregation an experience of different kinds of music that the musician would not have been able to play.

In my current place I am so blessed -- a 20 year old music student from UVic, who has a deep faith and tons of talent -- I chose the music for the first year, and now he does the majority of it.  We try to plan 6 weeks ahead -- I give him the list of scripture/themes for the upcoming sundays, often with a suggestion or two here and there -- and he emails back a proposal for the 6 weeks (5 songs a sunday).  We negotiate a bit and then finalize it.  I love it and am grateful for him!

I did confirm yesterday that our MD chooses the songs.  He laughed and said that if he lets the minister pick them, she tends to pick music that no one knows!!    They do work well together though and I love the music at our church and find that it works well with the message/theme presented...cms