Just for a giggle, look up the liturgical colours fr the Sarum liturgy.

Well, for heaven's sake!  Now if any of my Anglican friends look askance at my candles, I will tell them to take it up with Saint Osmond. 

Diana,

I could not have said it better. Mystery! There is a time and a space where inanimate objects, everyday "stuff" can bring us to our knees, make us wipe a tear, make us feel so connected to God we have hair standing on our necks. Those places, sadly, are happening more and more in the mystery of nature, the realm of spirituality, at home with family... doing volunteer work... They are rarer and rarer inside a church. We have to talk about rituals and symbolism and use rituals and symbolism and reclaim all we lost for people to have those Godly experiences inside a place of worship.

I am an attendee and I get more connected moments and hair on my neck or moved to tears outside church than in. I can get it in places other than a UCC, but their theology does not work for me or it is not my faith.

Have you felt the sound of monks chanting move through you and had your every nerve ending vibrating? *deep sigh*

It is nothing but a ritual and is not important in itself but is symbolic and yet it can move you to tears. I once broke down sobbing at a sunset and the streams of light  coming through the dust particles in the Toronto air danced across a homeless man's legs. Give me that any day in church.

My background is steeped in ritual. Example: Covering the challah while blessing the wine. It means something. The symbolic function is there because it is symbolism taught as symbolism and recalled for others so they get the same experience. It seems nothing to people outside, but once they know that the wine is the focus but the bread should not be shamed and that two challah are because of double manna that fell for Shabbat and serves to recreate the miracle... Then, the light bulbs go off. Then they know how serious the prohibition is to not shame animals or fellow human beings. Then they get the ritual and they understand that a challah cover or cloth must be big enough to cover the challah and it must not be sheer to see the challah.

The Eucharist or Communion is a ritual, one that is moving for many. It can bring tears. The reason is that we do the ritual with recall and we recite the symbolism and invite the experience.

Stevie points to the power of ritual - our problem in many protestant and ucc churches is we place the emphasis on the functional.   Symbols point to a mystery that cannot be said in words, just as chant pushes us beyond the pragmatic - symbols are a language built on the experience of mystery that transcendence the ordinary, and helps us see in the ordinary the beyond... as Cohen said there is a crack in everything that lets the light in - symbols do that.

Our problem is we begin with the functional and then add spirituality to it.  It is the other way around - we begin with the spiritual - the awe - the mystery - and then find ways to say that - function then follows spirituality - then we can do this form follows function - but to that, I say this again - the value is the mystery, the deep reality before and beyond and within the functional.

Too many churches begin in function and that kills the spirit - I want the hair on the back of head to stand up.  We want deep sighs - and functionalism does not give us that. 

I appreciate the color need of a red with a room. But to raise a question - symbols are not just ours nor individual - they are a communities and that is why we do blue in our house - it is part of a larger trajectory even if that trajectory is a moveable process - it goes beyond my personal taste to what is the community symbol.

So, are you saying that community is larger than the personal?

Yes - it is true we feel as individuals but in the process of our becoming the effect of others help our becoming - ritual effects and has a tradition that is larger than personal preference, and can effect the personal, giving us a wider vision of ourselves and others. and the world.  The self is expanded to the other through the communal.

...only if we actually understand and appreciate what it is we're doing, Pan.    

Quite frankly, without any explanation as to the significance or symbolism of the Advent wreath in church, I have created my own symbolism around it for my home and my family.   If we are to participate in a larger symbolic tradition, the church needs to articulate that tradition for its people.

Only on Candlemas.

diana, you raise a good point. But when I was Staff Ass and tried to be diligent about education both to Church School folk and the Adults, inserts in the bulletin weren't read, News letter weren't read unless there was money involved or controversy.Workshops about such things were considered not worthy of their attendance and ctte and Council meetings had no time for study.

So what can we do?

You're so right, Crazyheart - not everyone's a theology geek like me!    I like stevie's ideas about embedding things right in the worship service.  For instance,  at the beginning of each service, and group/team meeting, we light a candle and say, 'we light the Christ candle to symbolize the presence of Jesus Christ with us..........let us enjoy the light of Christ."    So everyone knows why the candle is sacred.   That kind of thing.

Hi Crazyheart, 

It is perplexing that so few people will sign up for study groups, workshops, and so on.  My minister told me once that folks are often afraid of Christian education, because they fear that they don't "know enough".

Many of the peple I know who attend UC's don't have access to organised Bible Study, study groups or discussion groups.  They have committee meetings, choir practise, fundraising events.

We have all of the above, kaythecurler.

Agree and it is good when we do our own home and family advent symbols.  For example we don't put lights until advent - we use blue candles and dishes and table coverings.  We slowly do the stable scene over the time and the baby only christmas eve and the wise men after christmas. 

The other day a long time member said they didn't go to the bible study because they didn't know the bible.

As I said too often the liturgy around the candles is too short and bland. 

One of the first questions a search committee should ask - how will you help us deepen our spirituality.  This of course assumes the church knows that is its task - spirituality for the sake of self, world, and church.  It is foundational for our praxis.  Yet we ask functional questions.

I suggest that all church activity been centered in spiritual development as the function and then we do the pragmatics out of that vision.  We need fewer committees and set all activity up on task groups to do what is now needed - and they end when the job is done.

We over manage and do not spend enought time on the basic question - formation.

This is a place again where my past plays into my present. To me, going to worship is going to worship. Jews are lucky they are in shul a few times a year, though they financially support the shul. They also send their children to Hebrew School. For Orthodox, it is daily and others it is usually two days a week from kindergarten to grade 8 or 10.

We learned about holidays and tzedekah (charity) and we learned about rituals and customs and symbolism, the why-we-do-what-we-do part... Often we did it in Sunday School ways with colouring or crafts... but we were educated about the faith beyond Torah stories.

Personally, again perhaps because of where I come from as a starting point, I do not think the answer is to put in bulletins or adding inserts, forming more groups to come out to... Maybe because Jews are also not a "how many things can we get them out to?" people. So, it is no wonder to me that some feel we spread our people (including clergy) too thin and that little of it has to do with worshipping God or doing charity or building community. It has to do with "how many hats can you wear" or "how many places can you be at once" or "how much more can you financially, emotionally or mentally handle".... and trying to figure out how to get in their wallets and figure out how to "bind" them to their faith and their faith community. I struggle, because to me church is about worshipping God.... being God's hands and feet... and building relationships with God and with others....

I believe that the answer is with the youth. Teaching them not "what" to believe, but "why" we believe as we do and also why others believe as they do.  We may have missed that opportunity with a few generations. So, for me again, the answer is working it in while worshipping. To explain why we worship the way we do.

In action, it means that although my service lasts the same time they are accustomed to, the section for "reflection" or "meditation" is not as lengthy or is more lengthy and other areas cut shorter, depending. I am open to shortening the "sermon" aspect to 5-7 minutes even if I am making room for reflection and meditation throughout the service. For those who migh be with a stop watch, they are told out the gate what to expect that morning as I may offer some background on what we are doing and why it is done and what it means or is meant to signify... I mostly do that while doing the "things" it is we do....

Hi Panentheism, 

A clergyperson once commented here on wondercafe that search committees often neglect to ask the most important questions!!!  Interviews often focus on preaching style, how many pastoral visits the candidate will make, and so on.  She said search committees usually don't ask interviewees about what they actually believe, theologically speaking.  I don't know if this is true or not, but it was this minister's point of view.

When I was attending a church I heard about arrangements for fundraising, who was doing the required baking for an event, what committee was meeting this week, what my money was needed for.  I heard nothing about what I think of as spirituality.  Attempts to start conversations in this area were quickly shut down.

I doubt spirituality is important to most people who attend UC congregations.

stevieg, I do the same with my services -- believing as I do that the worship leader is also a teacher.  That said, I still preach a good lengthy sermon usually, but our congregation is fine with services that are 60-75 minutes, so they don't seem to mind!  :)

I think it is vital to offer teaching/enculturation as part of worship -- it is part of how we are formed as a worshipping community.  With new folk dropping in all the time, we must be clear, at every service, of why we do what we do.  It also helps those "in the know" to have some language to use, so that they can articulate our practics as well.  Over the 11 years of my ministry, I have heard nothing but appreciation for the times when folks learned something new about scripture, traditions, and practices.

shalom!

paradox3, I would concur with the clergy who said that, in many cases. I would not say all. I also would not say it is unique to the UCC. It seems like a list of what we want and style and visits seem important to us. We also would assume that a person in ___ denomination believes certain things. We may well assume wrong. I know priests, rabbis, ministers, laity and adherents who do not agree with their denomination or faith on any number of issues.

We also are want to use subjective language. Clergy once hired here locally, heard inclusive. They also heard welcoming and liberal theology. Then the crap hit the fan when they took inclusive to be inclusive and welcoming to be welcoming and liberal to be liberal. Imagine thinking you are inclusive and welcoming and liberal...that is what they thought they were/are.

Then there is all the vague language. Everyone wants someone with vision. Vision that looks where or leads to where or envisions what?

A glance through the Observer's recent classifieds has me asking - What is "respectful of our wide range of theologies?" Does it mean simply being respectful of individual journies?  Are they respectful and mindful to a clergy's journey and where the clergy fits on that wide range? Does it mean not challenging self or any of those theologies or asking anyone, including self? Is it code for " we have already been divided on issues and prefer not to speak of them"?  Is there any room for anyone's spiritual growth? It could mean just about anything.

What is "historic Christian faith"? What does it mean to be able to "communicate the Holy Scripture clearly"? What does "deep faith in Jesus Christ" mean? What is preaching with "depth"? If you combine "deep faith in Jesus Christ" and preach with "depth" does that mean something other than what "depth" alone might have meant?

Then we run into those times they want to be left where they are and still want to be challenged.

It is like any job description or classified. You create it and it sounds like you want it all and take what you can get.

When I was attending a church I heard about arrangements for fundraising, who was doing the required baking for an event, what committee was meeting this week, what my money was needed for.  I heard nothing about what I think of as spirituality.  Attempts to start conversations in this area were quickly shut down.

I doubt spirituality is important to most people who attend UC congregations.

You are painting with a wide brush, kay.  It's true that some folks are not at all interested in spirituality, and yet are active in the church (I don't get it myself).  It is also true that many folks are much more comfortable talking about organizing functions and having meetings rather than talking about their relationship with God.  But that doesn't mean that spirituality isn't important to "most people who attend UC congregations."  It is central to our task as congregations to help folks feel more comfortable articulating faith, exploring faith, experiencing God in Christ....

I'm sorry you found such a deadend to your attempts at conversation -- I would suggest you seek elsewhere, and try to find a more like-minded community to be a part of.

shalom!

I would say spirituality is very important to members of UCC congregations. How that spirituality manifests it self or what we define it as varies.

A person can think it means dealing with the spiritual versus the physical... they may not see spirituality in the mundane of a board meeting. Another person may see spiritual as an act of their faith and they may feel compelled to sit on committees and fundraise and live their faith. There are those who giving to the church of time, talent or fund affects their spirit or soul. There are some who spiritual is sacred and mystery, there are others that it is religion, doctrine, dogma, or church. There are some that spiritual means diety and those who spiritual has less or nothing to do with deity.

What we believe deeply varies. What we feel varies. What gives us a sense of belonging, peace, purpose, connection ot God and others around us, varies.... It is up to us to decide what we want/need and whether we will grow/wither/stretch/ become rigid.... with those like us around us, those unlike us around us, or that we have a spirituality our own that is not dependent on others. We should all be where we can grow and that we  feel nourished. (BTW that does not always have to come supplied from others) If we are not, we should find that place that we are.

"What is "historic Christian faith"? What does it mean to be able to "communicate the Holy Scripture clearly"? What does "deep faith in Jesus Christ" mean? What is preaching with "depth"? If you combine "deep faith in Jesus Christ" and preach with "depth" does that mean something other than what "depth" alone might have meant?"

AS a clergy with some time in the UCC I see some of these words as code words - I would never apply to a church who wanted the historic christian faith because that is code for the more conservative congregations.   The other words can be changed to get a better fix - the holy scripture may mean a more conservative read - or they have not been helped to say interpret the bible or scripture ( without the word holy).  The other words are as you say not clear and only when one is incoversation that you get a better picture.

When I say open inclusive I explain what I mean - gay positive - open to other religious viewpoints while deeply within the christian faith - be up front.

You could always do what we do in my church and just not have any advent wreath at all. That seems to solve that problem.

I would say that was a clear sign of a church that had lost its focus.

I was visiting a church last Sunday and saw clergy respond quite effectively to what could have caused a fuss. The senior couple who were charged with lighting the Advent candles had trouble with the kid-proof lighter. Perhaps because of this distraction, they lit the proper candles and then went on to light the Christ candle. The minister, no doubt aghast at this premature Christmas celebration, simply said nothing and went on with the worship service.

She clearly understood what was important and what was not.

Doug, she was very graceful and there were no hurt feelings or "not good enough"

You would probably not know the late John David Grylls. JD was a public school music teacher in Scarborough for many years. He was a lifelong batchelor and church organist. His love was music and his passion was the pipe organ. 

When JD taught in Toronto in the 1950's and 60's, he would attend choral evensong at St. Mary Magdaline's, where Healey Willan  was the organist or attend Timothy Eaton where David Ochterloney ruled the bench. JD learned a lot, including how to light church candles.  

I was newly inducted (we did inductions, back then, not covenantings) at Lakefield United Church. JD was retired by then, and was a great asset to the church.

On the first Sunday of Advent we lit the Advent candles with a Bic lighter. It was noisy and difficult; impossible for a child. After church JD came up to me and growled in his deep, resonant voice, "Didn't they teach you anything at Emmanuel College, man?"

"They taught me a lot of things," I replied, "but what do you think I didn't learn?"

"How to properly light a candle, for one." JD said.

By this time I could see the twinkle in his eye and realized I was about to learn something important.

"You always use a proper candle lighter with a good quality taper and you light it from a side candle that has already been lit," said JD. "Then, and only then do you light the Advent candle. I HATE the sound of that damned Bic lighter! "

By this time both of us were laughing.

"Do we have a proper candle lighter?" I asked.

"Probably not, but order one from Anglican Book Centre and let me know the cost."

I did and we used it the next Sunday. And I have never flicked my Bic or used a barbeque lighter to light a candle in church since then. We now even use wooden matches for the side candle!