I am going to conduct a lay service, including sermon, in April. And, like all other lay services I have conducted before, I'll do it for free. But then I'm not a designated lay minister. If I were offered any money, I'd donate it right back.

Are we really talking about how much it costs for an hour of lay service?

As a LLWL  (LIcensed Lay Worship Leader), I usually spend about 12 - 15 hourss on a service.  That includes preparation, travel, presiding, relating to the congregation before and after the service.  If I do two services it would probably take another two hours  (est. 20 min travel between points, before and after time, and service which would be almost identical to the first).   I do not officially do any other duties as LLWL.  And I get paid for my work. 

Hi All,

There is another point to consider in a multi-point charge.

Should both congregations get the same sermon preached to them?

Early in my training I had the privilege of preaching to a two-point charge in Burnaby.  I prepared one sermon for charge.  The first delivery went well.  The second was a personal nightmare.

Deja vu is not a helpful sensation in the midst of a sermon.  The notion that you have been in the same place might be pointing out to you that you are not progressing through the stream of you sermon but rather that you are stuck in some eddy and slowly rotating in one place while effectively going nowhere.

Second time through the same sermon is pretty much one whole Deja vu nightmare.

That was the first and the last time that I used a sermon for more than one preaching point on any given Sunday.

When I arrived on my settlement charge I had a three point charge and I preached three separate sermons every Sunday.  Which contributed greatly to my worship and preparation time.

Grace and peace to you.

John

And my experience was quite the opposite. On multi-point charges I've usually preached the same sermon (although not always, depending on the circumstances.) I always felt that the 2nd time the sermon was preached was the best for both me and for the congregation.

When I served a 3 point charge (for settlement) the 3 charges rotated service times (morning, afternoon and evening.) I always felt that the best version of the sermon was, unfortunately, the afternoon version (which was also usually the worst attended, just because of the time of day.) My theory was that the first time I preached the sermon I was getting used to it, the third time I preached it I was bored with it, but the second time I had it just right. 

RevJohn, thanks for sharing that.

In a multi-point charge, I am aware that they ususally have different roots and history. It is why there is another UCC on the other corner or a few miles down the road. One might have a Methodist background, another a Presbyterian... and it is more than the name Knox that gives it away.

I learned that what went well here, may not there. So, I would adapt sermons. Same general theme, but different. Also, A has a church anniversary, B does not. Do you ignore A?

It is more than just the sermon. One church may have children and another does not.

One has a trained organist and the other does not, one does not have anyone to play. (Yes, I have had to lead Easter services without an organist or anyone to play music)  They also have different tastes in hymns. In multi-point charges you are also less likely to have a Minister of Music. I usually pick the hymns for Sunday.

I imagine that it depends upon the pastoral charge.  As a lay supply I don't remember ever preaching different sermons, although I have adapted them - sometimes at the planning stage, sometimes mid-stream  (ie  that illustration didn't work well the first time, I'd better drop it.)

Other parts of the service might be quite different.  Sometimes a volunteer will tell a children's story completely unrelated to the theme or the story I have chosen.  Or after I tell about Jesus love for the children, the children's hymn will be 'Dare to be a Daniel'.   Sometimes I am told that this is 'graduate Sunday', a boy is finishing high school, could I do something about it - there will be cake after.   And the music - one charge I visit has a guitar and an excellent choir who sing for the shear joy of it.  The other has a formal, gowned, four person choir who sing parts.  They eeeach pick their own hymns.   The first at least checks the lectionary.

For me, preaching is not the most important part of what I do in a community. Preaching is nothing more or less than a verbal expression, embedded in affective presence, of my prayerful engagement of the text, in the context of my personal experience in relationship with the community, its neighbourhood and the world at large.

I am persuaded that the key element in effective preaching is twice as much listening as talking. Walking through the doors on Sunday morning my ears are listening for indications of where the folk, in all their diversity, are at.

There are times when my study and prayer have me oriented to a word of warning. Walking in I hear clues suggesting that there is a vulnerability at work in the mix. This noticing allows me to shift the emphasis from challenge to encouragement. The pattern can unfold in multiple ways.

For me the study is too far removed from the commons. My talks are most often grounded in the tensions of action and reflection. On Monday morning I ask myself what questions might have been produced by the talk on Sunday morning. Those questions are mixed in as I give the texts a first read.

During the week, I carry the texts near the front of my imagination, so that they help me interpret the experiences of the different days. They inform my presence in the diverse contexts of community service, when I visit the sick,  sit with persons seeking marriage, animate conversation and study circles and much more.

I sound out themes in conversation with persons met in the street, in cafes, and in other contexts, such as the breakfast table and in the leisure hour just before bed, over a cup of tea with my sharpest critic and keenest encourager.

Saturday night I get out of bed at about two a.m., to sit in the dark silence with a cup of hot milk. This is an hour of surrender. All the thoughts of the week, all the images and phrases that have come to mind, are yielded into the care of that which is within me and without me as divine presence.

Entering the preaching moment, I have no conscious idea of what will flow from the depths. I simply begin to express that which the spirit brings forward. The key element consists in my regard for those who have gathered to hear a word from the Lord.  I understand this as speaking in the spirit.

I am not at all comfortable with the mathematical accounting of hours and dollars. I understand wages to be a means by which the community sets me free to live a life of study, prayer and service. This is an older understanding, which has pretty much gone out of fashion under the rise of capitalism.

I come from a Dutch background in which it is fair to make jokes about clergy. One comes to mind. It is about a preacher who could bring forward a coherent and edifying discourse without any prior preparation.

One Sunday the preacher asked the congregation to write a topic on a slip of paper and put it in a hat the next Sunday. The preacher explained that he would draw a slip of paper and preach on the topic.

The congregation decided to have a little fun with the preacher. Each folded a slip of blank paper to see what the preacher would do. On Sunday morning the preacher reached into the hat and pulled out a folded slip. When he unfolded the slip and noticed that it was blank, he began with "In the beginning there was nothing and God said..."

After may years of practice, I need no time to prepare a talk. How do I do? About as well as a better than average baseball player, getting it right about three and two thirds times out of ten (Ty Cobb's batting average). If I were a baseball player, that would qualify me for a six figure salary at least.

Can you put a price on worship? Just sayin

I'm with both Crazyheart and Chanson on this: there are minimums on the books intended to reasonably compensate leaders in the currency of common exchange (dollars), but

...? It's never enough for the good work, and always too much for some who begrudge every penny not spent in the way they believe is proper.

Are you sure you're with me? Mine was a double entendre.

I suppose there's space for one more...

For those of you who have had two and three point charges, I think you must have come from a different era.  Today, a lot of ministers are saying things like,  "I wouldn't give up my Sunday afternoons for anything", and "don't call me on a Monday because that's my day off".  Sermon writing time is allowed up to 16 hours, I believe, but often we wonder how much time was really spent.  Sitting in the office during office hours may sometimes be just leisure time, but they are still getting paid for it.  Some adhere as strictly as possible to the 40 hour week.  I know that time off is needed, but much of the time spent by the minister is not known by the congregation that is paying them.

But, then again, much depends upon the particular pastoral charge that we are talking about.  Not all are the same.

Hi venture111,

Or perhaps a different place.  Multi-point charges are still part of the rural reality of the United Church.  From 2007 to 2011 I worked two half-time positions so that I could draw the equivalent of a full-time salary.  Not quite multi-point but a new reality, multi-charge.  From October 2010 to April 2011 I worked half-time for one charge, a quarter time at a second and another quarter time at a third.

Unlike a lot of congregational members who are beggin to do more than an hour on Sunday morning right?

Clearly they don't know their place.  I hope you put them in it.

Grace and peace to you.

John

"Unlike a lot of congregational members who are beggin to do more than an hour on Sunday morning right?"

Yeah, but we are not getting paid!

As in every organization, a handful usually do more than most, even if they are not paid.

And.......... I have tried to put some in their place, but it is not working very well.  Those in power know they have the power.  :)

Hi venture111,

Are you getting paid to complain then?

True.

So what you really lack is the power to put people in their place?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Another time is not much my reality, another locale from what some know is perhaps my reality.

The only one point charge anywhere is in town. Everything around me is two or three point. They are close though, 23 kms between two points and about 30-40 in the three points. 

I might actually be considered to be from another time, based on knowing that the three point charges have trouble getting pulpit supply to do all three on a Sunday. It meant my car left the drive at 8 am and I returned after 2 pm. It meant dashing out the church door after worship without shaking hands. In fact, while the last hymn plays (doing the commissioning and benediction before the hymn, is how they budget you can make a 20 minute drive in 15 minutes). It meant dashing in the next church door and taking the pulpit with papers and stuff in hands (because there is no time to come in and place them ahead of time, let alone a bathroom break from 9 am to 12:00 at least). It meant that the time to centre is really for you to catch your breath.

Now, let's say they call a half- time minister (and in rural ares they often cannot afford full time)... When you put in 6 hours on Sunday into driving and delivery and 12 into the prep IMO you cannot complain about what they do with time. It is two hours. One funeral, one wedding, one pastoral care visit.... one anything eats the couple hours left PLUS some. 

I know FAR, FAR more local ministers putting in extra time, unpaid time above their hours, than I do folks, you know, doing the dog. 

Guess I've established my reputation!  Maybe I have used this website for my sounding board when I feel that I have not been listened too otherwise. 

Thank you for listening and I'll stop now............

venture111,

I can only speak for myself. I have not made any decisions about your reputation or character. Some may have, I cannot speak for them.

I do not know you in real life, that I know of. I do not  certainly do not remember enough posts on Wondercafe to decide on your reputation. Some may. 

Some people may be what they present online, others not. Sometimes people who do not vent in person, do online.

I know that people can get or have a reputation that is well earned or undeserved. I also believe people who deserve their reputation can change....

You seem to have a complaint.

It may be valid and justified. 

It is, however, not my experience or reality. 

It does sound as though you have a personal or congregational issue, that is weighing on you. 

Hi venture111,

Which is what exactly?

In that case WonderCafe.ca has either been the vehicle which serves to project your voice.  How far it travels in virtual environment is still up for debate

or,

You are using WonderCafe.ca to refine your points for the most powerful effect they can have in a real environment.

I'm not sure which was your intent.

No passive aggression in this comment. 

You posted cheap shots at clergy and one stands up and fires back.  Were we all supposed to sit there and let you take cheap shots at us?

Now if WonderCafe.ca is just a vehicle to amplify your displeasure at all clergy in general or some specific clergy you'd have to know that the clergy you seek to diss participates otherwise nothing is amplified for your intended audience.

If you are using WonderCafe.ca to refine your position then you need to listen to the responses you get to the allegations you make.

As far as reputations go.  I'm not sure what your reputation is.

Grace and peace to you.

John

To SG,  -- It is true that I have a congregational issue that has been weighing heavily on me for some time. Because I do not wish to disclose many things about it, I now realize that I cannot rationally discuss it here.

To RevJohn,

As to my reputation, I guess others will have to decide that. 

If I have, offended you or other ministers, I am sorry.  I WAS talking mainly about our own situation and a few others that I know about.  We have a close family member who is a minister, so I know there are many good ones out there. It was just my need to vent when I seem to not be able to do anything more about our particular church situation.

Generally speaking, I have not been a person who is a complainer.  In fact, I used to be the one to always be quiet.  Now that I seem to have found my voice, I also seem to find myself in more controversial situations, more often!

Hopefully, I can soon find a more positive side.  -- That is why I said that, "I will stop now".  I do not want to come here just to complain.

Hi venture111,

Others will decide based on what you show of yourself.

If you are sorry, I accept your apology.

Taking time to clarify that before the complaint is also you claiming your voice and doing so responsibly.

I get that it was your need to vent.  I object to the shotgun approach.  If you have a particular target you want to blast away at.  Do that.  If you are going to be tossing out generalities you don't care about what the target is you just want to hit somebody and that is irresponsible.  It blasts close family members whom you seem to think are undeserving of such ill treatment and are now rubbing their backsides wondering why you decided they needed a shot in the backside.

I can well imagine.

Finding your voice is great.  Focussing your voice is better.  A voice without focus soon becomes noise.

You have a complaint.  All of us do about something.

If you deal in generalities you aren't using your voice, you are hiding behind it.

I can understand not wanting to reveal detail, then it becomes so much a one-sided story when the other is not here to defend themselves and that would sink your reputation very quickly.

I join you in that hope.

Grace and peace to you.

John

My Mom is a member of a two-point UCC Charge in New Brunswick.